Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1446 posts
Jul 11, 2007
6:02 AM
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To All, let me clarify, I like a good debate, not argument. No one has refuted any of my points or conclusions, which ones are wrong-headed, ill-conceived or going in the wrong direction and why?
I see or hear of no solutions being offered at all, there is no merit in being argumentative to be argumentative, muddies the water and takes the focus off of the real substance of the issues and minimizes its possible message and potential helpfulness.
For Hector (stability thread), at least from my perspective, the larger issue is that he has a bop problem, I am addressing the larger issue. If he did not have a bop problem, he would not be asking whats wrong with 6 month wonders that either crash and burn or are picked off by bop.
At this point, his decision to continue to fly rollers will result in the slaughter of dozens and dozens of his birds to bop.
There are the only 3 choices for the person suffering under the bop gauntlet:
1 Allow the slaughter to continue
2 Find legal remedies to minimize bop losses
3 Get out of performing rollers
Option # 1 should be discouraged as ethically wrong. Option # 2 takes more effort but allows one to stay in compliance with the law. Option # 3 when options 1 and 2 are not gonna get it done. We should discourage option #4.
These are my opinions, but they are the practical options that will keep ones actions legal. I think it is smart, responsible and reasonable to look ahead and see what todays actions or in-action might have on tomorrows results.
If those who would lead us exercise more foresight, perhaps in the future we will not be watching newscasts and reading Internet articles about "roller pigeon rings".
Discussing option #2 is the only way out of the woods as I see it. So what are the ideas for option #2 for an individual to remain a responsible flyer of roller pigeons?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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kcfirl
137 posts
Jul 11, 2007
6:10 AM
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Tony,
the other option you don;t mention is moving. BOP preadation is highly variable depending on where a guy lives.
I believe that at some point only option 3 will be viable. BOP populations are growing still, and it will get worse.
Firl
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Missouri-Flyer
733 posts
Jul 11, 2007
6:16 AM
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option #2?
What are the legal remedies, and how will you go about taking care of a BOP problem in your area when there could be several? I dont think that this option is worthy.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1447 posts
Jul 11, 2007
6:31 AM
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Hey Ken, option #2 is the sum total of all the viable and legal ways and ideas to minimize or eliminate the bop problem, so, moving comes under the #2 option.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1448 posts
Jul 11, 2007
6:36 AM
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Hey Jerry, an option #2 legal remedys might be:
A- Obtain a trapping permit and relocating a resident bop
B- Use legal sound devices to move migratory bop along
C- Study the feeding habits of your local bop and find the best time frame to fly your birds
D- Move
E- Portable Loft Flying
F- Other ideas...
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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Missouri-Flyer
734 posts
Jul 11, 2007
7:01 AM
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I can't wait until an agent from the FWS steps up, takes some responsibility and explains, IN DETAIL, what THEIR "the FWS" plan is on doing about the issue, and their thoughts on the constant slaughter of our birds. I for one dont think that they give a rats ass about the damn killers, as far as them being OVER POPULATED in most area of the west, and other parts of the country.
I am not sure if there has been any type of study "by the FWS" as to how many hawks, falcons there are currently in the US, but something needs to be done to reduce the damn numbers!
We here in MO. dont have a huge issue with them, but I feel for the guys in the areas that do have an abundant number of the bastards!
Does anyone have any information regarding a letter being written to the FWS in regards to the issue. Hell, you might even get a response from them..Doubt it, but it is possible.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1449 posts
Jul 11, 2007
7:05 AM
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Remember, there are only 3 logical options to dealing with bop problems. Everyone will choose one of them and be solely responsible for that choice.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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Missouri-Flyer
736 posts
Jul 11, 2007
7:13 AM
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Tony,
I believe you stated in a recent post that you had an agent show up at your door?
If that is the case, did you engage in a conversation in regards to the slaughter of pigeons by BOP? If so, what kind of answers, or run around did the agent give ya?
I would have given him an ear full if they were at my place..----I welcome any agent to my residence anytime. Be prepared to get the 1000 question treatment when you arrive..Hell, I will even have a cold drink for ya, and fly some birds.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1450 posts
Jul 11, 2007
7:25 AM
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Jerry, I believe this guy was an undercover agent trying to see if I was doing illegal trapping or bragging about doing it like the guys accused in California and elsewhere.
This person showed up under very peculiar circumstances that I thought were sort of odd at the time, but since OHR did not break at that point (it did about 2 weeks later), I thought it was simply coincidence that he found my house while looking for a company of which I have their stickers on my outbuildings, he said he googled the address for the company he was looking for and it led him here.
He probably thought I was the company he said he was looking for as a pretext to come out here. I only connected the dots after OHR was announced.
He said he was looking for a chicken house to buy and in our conversation asked about how I handled bop. I just told that I really don't have problems out here except for the occasional flyby.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
Last Edited by on Jul 11, 2007 7:38 AM
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Missouri-Flyer
737 posts
Jul 11, 2007
7:31 AM
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makes sense,
Damn, I thought you had a real, in life agent, not hiding behind plain clothes, at your residence. I was hoping he gave ya a contact number for his personal cell phone that you could pass on to me.... I would make use of it!
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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bman
323 posts
Jul 11, 2007
7:36 AM
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Hey Tony,
I have made this post before with no one commenting on it.
I have a total of 12 years flying rollers so I "ain't no pilgrim".Now I can only speak to dealing with coopers.
But you CAN fly around them.I went from 65% loss last year
April thru November. This year 0% losses so far.I fully expect to lose a few birds,it is unavoidable but you can minimize your losses.
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1452 posts
Jul 11, 2007
7:42 AM
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Hey Ron, I remember your post about that. Your post actually emboldened me somewhat to continue in the topic.
Do you feel comfortable sharing what you did to eliminate the bop problems you were experiencing? I also like the fact that you also understand that some losses are bound to happen.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Check Out Our Pigeon Supply Store
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nicksiders
1872 posts
Jul 11, 2007
8:00 AM
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Ron,
You are right and everytime I say that you can I get poo-poo'd........and the "experts" telling me you can't. I have lost a few here and there and when I do it is because I got mentally lazy and didn't go thru my sheduled routines or I wasn't watching them.
Sometimes you can out fox the fox. I honestly believe we are more intellegent than hawks and falcons, many don't believe we are(maybe some ain't).
You can fly around them; I had 'em California and I got'em here in Arkansas. I live along side of protected wet lands; it is a haven for BOPs and I have had some major overflys due to hawks, but it occurs when I am not practicing what I preach. Put up or shut up; griping about the BOPs is getting old Find a way; a legal way.
Go fly a kite now and then.
Nick
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BigRiverRollerLofts
Last Edited by on Jul 11, 2007 9:29 AM
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bman
324 posts
Jul 11, 2007
8:19 AM
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First let me say that between rollers & homers I have been flying pigeons for the last 27 years. That being said when I started flying rollers again in Marc of 07 I kept a journal of every interaction my birds had with BOP's.
What I found to work for me is first of all very limited or no flying at all Nov 1st to April 1st.Second starting in April flying only in the evenings and never on consecutive nights.Weekends absoulutely no flying between
10 am and 2 pm.Stating May 1st I start testing the "waters"
with and increased fly schedule but still only in the evenings.If I encounter problem I lock down for 3 days and start over with alternating fly days.By the end of may I can fly whenever I want.If I do get hit it is a 3 day lockdown.For those who don't think coopers are a problem here,from March 1st 06 thru Nov 30th 06 I recorded 31 determined attacks.Suffered 65% losses. This included flying my homers who one occasion weathered an on slaught of 4 coopers at one time
This year with my new schedule I have had 2 attacks with one bird being caught and manage to escape & survive.
Ron
Borderline lofts
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Missouri-Flyer
738 posts
Jul 11, 2007
8:30 AM
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fly times and lock up times will be determined by the area of the US that you reside. No 2 regions will be the same.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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Newflyer
118 posts
Jul 11, 2007
8:54 AM
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Tony and all concerned..I have been trying to keep up with this running post ever since the BOP incedient was reported. I have also been doing alot of reading about other breeds of birds. Several months ago I came across a breed called the Oriental Flying Roller,which many of you have heard of. It seems that this particular breed has the ability to out manuover BOP. PAUL SISK wrote an article, Birminghan Roller Guardian and has been very succesfull in flying these FOR with very much success and still manages to fly his B/R with out losses. Go to the Cirus Loft website and check them out for your self. I have purchased some for myself. I too am sick of the attacks on my rollers. Tony mentioned that noone was comming up with any solutions for this problem. For myself, I have adjusted my flying times and taken advantage of the FOR for future preservation of MY rollers. Please take this into consideration for the FUTURE of our hobby.. If anyone would like to talk about this more feel free to contact me at hdwindjammer@yahoo.com
Paul
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fhtfire
1058 posts
Jul 11, 2007
8:56 AM
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Contact a Falconer and have them come and trap your hawk or falcon...since they are allowed to trap at certain times of the year.....then everyone is happy..the BOP lovers know the bird is geeting taken care of....and the pigeon guys are happy that the bird is gone....Kind of like the fox and the hound....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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bman
325 posts
Jul 11, 2007
9:13 AM
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Jerry,
You are exactly right!My point is if most flyers studied there BOP problem half as much as they studied there birds they can reduce their losses.
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Ron
Borderline lofts
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Ballrollers
803 posts
Jul 14, 2007
6:32 AM
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Guys,
So what questions (legitimate ones, please) would you ask of a USFWS representative if he were sitting in front of you on a panel discussion? What information are we lacking in order to help us deal with this problem more effectively. I have a few myself....Why do they refuse to grant us the permits to relocate BOP? Why is it that local state USFWS instruct roller men to deal with the problem as they choose if the BOP comes on their property and attacks their birds?......
Cliff
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
1447 posts
Jul 14, 2007
6:40 AM
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Cliff, they don't give two shits about us and you can expect to get a variety of different answers, most of which is just their own personal opinion. THEY DON'T CARE!!!!
Oh, and FYI, maybe someone could have asked the UC punk that was riding the Convention bus in Portland.
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Missouri-Flyer
747 posts
Jul 14, 2007
7:14 AM
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Cliff,
Ask them if in THEIR opinion, if THEY think that the hawk situation in the US has gotton out of hand. Ask if there will in the forseeable future be a solution to the distruction that the BOP cause to not only pigeons, but all other types of birds, expecially during the nesting and hatching season.
Remind them of the overpopulation of other 2 and 4 legged animals in the past, and the harm they did.
Advise them that a possible solution would be to allow legal remedies of killing nusiance BOP since they are out of control, and the cause of that partially being the FWS to blame!
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
Last Edited by on Jul 14, 2007 7:16 AM
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Velo99
1223 posts
Jul 14, 2007
7:46 AM
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Hey Jerry,
As to a phone number,there were two listed on the press release of OHR. It is in the archives.
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V99
Flippin`The Bird!
http://www.bluedotloft.50megs.com
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wafer kits
14 posts
Jul 14, 2007
1:02 PM
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Tony et al:
Interesting comments in posts dated the 11th. Tony, I believe your options number C,D, and E are the best. Ron's
times of flying etc. supply the most viable means of operating without losses to BOP's, I think. Jerry's comment about different times for other regions is right but you simply adjust the times for your own particular area. I think each area should put on a pigeon show for the public. Not one where there are hundreds of fat show birds in only a few varieties but one designed to attract attention (ie) just a half-dozen representatives of the pigeon world with outstanding features. Jacobins, fntails, pouters, swallows, trumpeters etc. Maybe some selfs and some multi-colored birds among them. (This is not a judging show). Posters could be drawn up showing some of the many varieties in existence. 3 or 4 fanciers could be present with some of the performing varieties to be released at different times of the day. Homers, Parlors, and portable loft Rollers. Bring the public sympathy to our cause. Sorry for being so long-winded.. Al
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MILO
372 posts
Jul 15, 2007
12:09 PM
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Option F:
mor·a·to·ri·um (môr'?-tôr'?-?m, -t?r'-, m?r'-)
n., pl. -to·ri·ums or -to·ri·a (-tôr'?-?, -t?r'-).
An authorized period of delay in the performance of an obligation.
A suspension of an ongoing or planned activity: a moratorium on the deployment of a new weapon.
I suggest two year lockdown. Nationwide, of all performance breeds, including homers. Surely al BOP's can survive on the indigenous food sources right? Just a thought. I don't think that most guys could pull it off though, they would have withdrawls. This would at least change their hunting patterns, and most likely get their numbers down. I believe the hand fed raptors (namely Coopers) would die, and many other accipiters would meet with similar struggles. As for the groups trying to scrutinize our hobby, they would PRAY we let some birds out after two years. There would be no effect to the superior hunters like Peregrines. It's a long shot, mainly because the guys that DON'T have troubles with BOP's wouldn't see the benefit, and it would never get done. LOL
Thinking out loud,
c
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nicksiders
1884 posts
Jul 15, 2007
1:09 PM
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It wouldn't take two years. One to three montha at the right time(s).
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Nick
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Otis
41 posts
Jul 15, 2007
1:11 PM
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Milo, I feel your frustration, as I just came from scaring off a pair of redtails by just standing close, trying to rob the bluejay nests of young. The bluejays were putting up such a fuss that my wife commented "what is that". The pair left only when the Ravens came and chased them away. All I am saying is that they do persist on songbird populations and even an overwhelming loss of songbirds wouldn't alert the FWS to a problem. They are ignorant, lazy and full of themselves as psuedo cops with badges. Otis
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Gregg
107 posts
Jul 19, 2007
6:34 AM
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Cliff, Brian, convention goers:
Sorry so late catching up on a lot of these threads.
Brian mentioned the UC punk on the convention bus. Perhaps someone should hand out a flyer to all attendees of this upcoming convention advising them that the person seated next to them, on the bus, at the bar, in the lobby, at the banquet, could damn well be another under cover USFWS agent. Something to think about.
Gregg.
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viper
27 posts
Jul 19, 2007
7:30 PM
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Have you heard about the wolves in Idaho and yellowstone that kill livestock if so you have heard that the livestock owner's dead critters are payed for that have been killed by wolves.Be nice if you could get payed by yhe gov. for your dead pigeons..Hell at a penny a bird they would have to raise taxs or something..just deaming.
Blake
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maxspin
93 posts
Jul 20, 2007
10:54 AM
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Blake,
It may be a little hard to prove that you had a loss. The Idaho ranchers can show a body. Just speaking for myself…… The last I see of my taken pigeon is it disappearing over the horizon in the clutches of the falcon.
Keith
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Snake Doctor
1 post
Sep 01, 2007
7:17 AM
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I am very new to the Roller Pigeon sport, as I was searching for info I found this site.
I don't know come here from sic-em, Yet! about the ins and outs of loft management but I have had an experience that may help some with the BOP problem.
I live in Southeast Georgia, the quail plantations here are abundant and all have an on going preditor management, trapping program to deal with red and grey Fox, Bobcats, Coyotes, Coon, Possum and Skunks.
The BOP's are a plague that can not be dealt with in that manner legally.
We have a wide variety of Hawks, Owls even Bald Eagles and Osprey in this area, I have experienced having one or more of these sit in the Pine trees near my coops and pens just waiting for breakfast, lunch or supper.
I arrived at a solutiuon quite by accident. When I would plant birds, quail and feral pigeons on my training fields the BOP's would wipe them out before I could get back to turn my English Cockers or Labs out to work them.
A couple of young guys asked me for permission to allow them to fly their radio controlled air planes from one of my training fields (wide open space) good for them with lots of visability.
I agreed and found that when they would fly their planes the BOP's would take off out of there like their tails were on fire. Afterwards I have a 3 to 4 day window of opportunity in which to train.
I have no clue if this will work anywhere else but it sure does here.
If there are any Roller Pigeon folks near me I'd like to communicate with them, I saw rollers in the Atlanta area but have struck out finding any down here.
SD
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Alohazona
305 posts
Sep 01, 2007
11:39 AM
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Option #4,
Move to Hawaii.We are without major BOP encounters.Our windward side of O'ahu does have them ,and they have hit my birds and other club members.Seems as though they skip a year comming around.
Hawaii is a bird paradise.It is also the reason we have such a hard time bringing in birds,it would take very little to upset the balance out here.
We welcome Rick Schoening to the Big Island of Hawaii.With Rick it certainly will be raising the bar out here.....Aloha,Todd
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Electric-man
547 posts
Sep 01, 2007
12:11 PM
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Snake Doctor, We are really glad to have you and hope to get to know you better! This is a great place for "roller nuts"! We appreciate your ideas, but we have to be really careful where this idea goes! We have a strict policy against encouraging harrasment to BOPs! Make sure you read the posting policy! We don't want any bad publicity here and there are those that are just looking for us to make a mistake and use something against us! Its a dog-eat-dog world brother!You need to be careful in what you post also! The "nuts" out there might start sending you nasty hate mail and making threats for such comments! Just best to keep these ideas quiet! What you do in your backyard is your buisness! Just for the record, this idea has been brought up before on severel occasions though!
Please don't let this discourage you from sharing ideas and experirences with your rollers! Most all of "us" here have had to be warned once or twice! LOL
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Val
"Site Moderator"
Last Edited by on Sep 01, 2007 12:12 PM
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Alan Bliven
367 posts
Sep 07, 2007
3:08 PM
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Has anyone tried encouraging the Blackbirds (Grackles) and Woodpeckers to their yard by feeding them as a deterrent to Coopers attacks? I find these birds hate Coopers and will chase them off at first sight. I am just starting this experiment by feeding these birds and right now I have about a dozen of them in my trees at all times. I feed them dry dog food (the smaller chunks) placed on the top of one of my lofts in a ceramic plate.. they love that dog food and come from all over to feed on it... we'll see.
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Alan
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
1894 posts
Nov 21, 2007
5:31 AM
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Glad to see Paul bringing this up...made me think it is a good time to bring this thread back to the front again as it is relevant to another thread: BOP Is Our Fault Too.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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