J_Star
85 posts
Nov 19, 2004
5:29 AM
|
These questions are hard to answer, can you help...
What do the unpredictable and uncontrollable effects of development and unobserved genes explain about why sibligs in closely bred families exhibit such different performance abilities? Do they explain why there is often a difference between an individual bird's ability as a performer and its ability to preduce performers in the breeding loft?
Since all that a bird passes to its progeny comes from its genome, and that's just part of what has influenced its characteristic performance, how good is judging birds in the air as a predictor of its likely success as a breeder?
If character is a quality found in better performers, are they better performers because of their character?
Does genetics trump management, or can optimal management bring something out in performance all of its own?
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Nov 19, 2004 5:39 AM
|
rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
185 posts
Nov 21, 2004
11:07 PM
|
First off, I am not an expert at genetics; I only have my informal research and “study” to rely on. So here is my humble response to your questions.
“What do the unpredictable and uncontrollable effects of development and unobserved genes explain about why siblings in closely bred families exhibit such different performance abilities”?
Up to now, it is my understanding that there are so many variations possible even in the same closely bred family genome that it would be impossible to have all offspring come out exactly alike, i.e. you can have one that only flys and does not roll, yet its nest mate could roll 30 feet or more!
“Since all that a bird passes to its progeny comes from its genome, and that's just part of what has influenced its characteristic performance, how good is judging birds in the air as a predictor of its likely success as a breeder”?
Very good. Through observation, we select birds that demonstrate certain traits like rolling ability and breed it to like kind. Over time this breeding technique will produce a preponderance of the trait we are selecting for. It does not mean however, that we have eliminated the genes that give us the other characteristics.
So, judging birds from the air is valid and is the best indicating factor as it is the one test that allows us to know if we are selecting the right birds to continue our performance goals.
Their genetic predisposition to reproduce like kind is very high. But you will never be able to select breeders that will improve the genetic pool. What is there cannot be improved upon, only consolidated. Improvement will stop at some point to that level that is maximally available.
“Do they explain why there is often a difference between an individual bird's ability as a performer and its ability to produce performers in the breeding loft”?
Yes, for the reasons already given. Example: If you began selecting birds from the family that say did not roll and you kept selecting more of the same kind of offspring, over time, you would have a preponderance of rollers from that family leg that do not roll.
However, the possibility of this family leg producing a champion exists just as a leg that was selected for its extreme rolling ability would. The rolling leg of this family would produce more of them however.
”If character is a quality found in better performers, are they better performers because of their character”?
Jay, please explain what you mean by “character”.
NOTE
You can never eliminate what is in the family gene pool; only minimize certain traits while emphasizing others.
FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by rollerpigeon on Nov 21, 2004 11:10 PM
|
J_Star
89 posts
Nov 23, 2004
7:25 PM
|
Tony,
So far, you are the only one who took a stab at this one. It is truely appreciated and thanks for your comments and input. Any other takers!!! Thanks
Jay
|
redneckhippie15
76 posts
Nov 24, 2004
3:14 AM
|
I`m going to take a stab at the character question.
We define our birds as athletes . In all athletes the drive to perform at an optimal level is the whole reason for athletics in any form. Although I don`t believe that pigeons understand this at a ethereal level but the character passed down through its genome certainly would have a great effect on its performance.Intelligence and character go hand in hand.
As I have watched my birds progress through this first season I have noticed certain birds that fly and roll their best every time they fly. They want to fly,and fly well.
Always back to the kit as hard as they can go and roll like there is no tomorrow. They have an upright posture and a "tough" look. Under proper management these birds will flourish.
If you want to see a picture of character look at Scott`s mottle red cock on the pic page. You can look at that one and tell he is full of it. Maybe Scott could fill us in on the character of this bird. Conclude if character is a visible trait.
There ya go... My two cents worth.
----------
Never watch you birds with you mouth open!
redneckhippie*blue dot lofts*
|
rollem42
1 post
Nov 24, 2004
10:20 PM
|
Jay, I only have simple responses to your questions regarding the genotypical traits that our fine feathered friends possess. I have found that in the past 25 years of raising rollers, it is best to try to keep it that way.....simple. So, on a simple level, we cannot see what genes a particular bird has. When a pair of rollers produces offsping, each youngster receives a different combination of genes. The combination is always different. The advice to observe your birds in the air is the best starting point you will have. As you learn to observe the subtle differences of each bird you will begin to recognize the differences as well as the similarities.
As you breed related birds together, these differences and sililarities will become more and more obvious to you. Because you are the closest observer of your pigeons, you have to be THE person who must recognize these characteristics. Anyone else can only be casual observer and therefore can only give you casual feedback about your birds. You must trust what you see, develop your observation skills amd keep it as simple as possible.
Pigeons do not have the drive to do any of the acrobatic
things they do. That is a human characteristic. What we see our birds do is strictly due to the precise combination of genes they have received from their parents.
It is our job to observe how these genes have affected them and try to breed for the ones we desire most. As time goes by we can only hope to become better observers and therefore better at matching up pairs that have the most desireable genes in hopes that it will show up in the offspring.
Character, which I describe as temperament or docility, is also genetic and should be bred for just as the performance is. I think that there is a list desireable traits that we should breed for. Some of the others include proper body structure,clear rich eye color, rolling stability ie(not rolling when they are low)or the ability to adjust their rolling depth when flying low,good kitting and several others which, as your observation skills improve, will become more obvious at a later time.
Now, it will be difficult to try to breed for all of these characteristics at the same time , but you must do the best you can and you will find that it will become increasingly easier with time.
So, for now, my advice would be to keep it as simple as possible in the beginning, and work hard. It is not an easy road to travel. If it was, everybody would have 1,000
point competition kits. Don't give up and you will have a very rewarding trip.
Rollem42
Last Edited by rollem42 on Nov 24, 2004 10:35 PM
|
Famous Players
3 posts
Dec 11, 2004
7:01 PM
|
I have recently been told that I should not house rollers and racers together. Since then I have heard of a friend that has them in the same loft.He has the oppinion that if there were to be an over dominate racer you don't want that as a part of your team. Would anyone concure to this outcome?
|
2701Dunn
1 post
Dec 27, 2004
8:55 AM
|
My topic is about watering for my rollers during the winter months. When the water always turns up to be ice. The birds need water. What are some easy ways and the best ways to make sure all my birds get the amount of water to stay healthy and not become dehydrated?? I'm still green since I have only been flying since Aug. of this year. Yesterday after Christmas, I stood out and just passed a water pale around to each cage but heck by the time all the birds drink its all day standing out in 10 degree weather. Do I need to do this every time. Like once a day or every other day???
My other question is my breeders. I have my breeders in my garage. I thought about raising young during the winter months. Well about four months now I only have one pair with eggs. Should I move them outside?? My garage door has windows so they are getting light but i don't think enough. I have seperated the cocks and hens a week in a half before but still the woman are not giving in at all. What do you guys and gals think I should do??
Thanks alot !!
Cameron
Last Edited by 2701Dunn on Dec 27, 2004 8:56 AM
|
highroller
67 posts
Dec 27, 2004
1:01 PM
|
Cameron,
If you are not breeding the birds they will survive on what they can drink before the water freezes. I use milk jugs as waterers and cut the top 2/3 to 3/4 off except for the handle side and put about 2 inches of water in them everyday when I feed. When I go out there I take a jug of warm water with me and pour a little on top of the ice in the waterers and dump the ice block out, then refill with 2 inches of the warm water. My jugs are mounted on the outside of the pens so that the birds do not bathe and poop in them too. If you are winter breeding you need to find some type of heated waterer to have water available all day. Seeing you are new at this you may not have been hit hard by hawks yet in the winter. If you do winter breeding you may lose most or all of your young to hawks when you put them out for training. The combination of reduced daylight hours and insufficent light getting through the windows may be what is keeping your breeders from raising young in the garage. It's not only the amount of light let in by the windows that affects them but also the number of hours the light is available.
Dan
Last Edited by highroller on Dec 27, 2004 1:03 PM
|
2701Dunn
2 posts
Dec 27, 2004
1:07 PM
|
Dan,
Thanks for the info with the milk jugs. I am actually just started to do what you said. I haven't hung them and the birds get in them. As far as the hawks. I have a family of resident hawks (Cooper)(edited by moderator.Does not conform to posting policy) I have lost over 40 birds this past late summer. So I am famaliar with the hawk. So do you or anyone else think I should take my breeders out of the garage?? I have a pair in there right now with eggs that are due to hatch this saturday. They are the only breeders in the garage and i have watched their water more than my flyers.
Last Edited by on Jun 01, 2007 9:23 PM
|
Siddiqir
132 posts
Dec 27, 2004
1:31 PM
|
Jay, there is also some thing know as "Click Pair" which give consistent results and all off spring get full package. Now the hard part is to find a click pair and I believe in well inbreed family it is not difficult to find one.
Thanks, -Rauf
|
highroller
68 posts
Dec 27, 2004
2:04 PM
|
Cameron,
You have nothing to lose by waiting to see if the eggs hatch. The water will not be an issue until the babies need to be fed, then the parents need access to water all day or several times a day to feed the babies.
Dan
|
Fireball
1 post
Dec 29, 2004
5:24 PM
|
And a great new year to you also. I am looking for individuals who are presently raising and flying the old Fireball strain of rollers. I presently have 6-8 people on a mailing list. We are comparing notes, background of our birds, style of flying and rolling. I have been told by several that there are none left of any account and that is simply a challenge to raise a great kit of these birds that I had 50 years ago. If you have information and desire to share it, drop aline. Thanks.
|
spintight
39 posts
Jan 05, 2005
11:55 PM
|
It's all dependant on the family of birds you have. I am getting in on this one a little late.
For me I see that if one of the birds in clutch is a good spinner nearly 90% of the time the other one is too, especially if they are twins, meaning the same sex in the same clutch.
As my family gets tighter genetically it seems I am getting more cocks then I used to, but at the same time the cocks over all performance is getting much better as well.
In the early stages of my line I would get about 1 cock equal to about 10 top hens, but now it's more like 4-5 good cocks to 10 good hens. I think a lot of the cocks don't survive as they can't hold it together mentally.
Some of them mature and all they want to do is screw. I p prefer the birds that are henish type cocks and give very little trouble in the kit boxes.
Dave
|
jeo2314
5 posts
Jan 06, 2005
1:15 PM
|
Hey Dave, How about those henny cocks, do they have as much heart as the other cock birds? I've got 4 of them here, from the same pair. 2 I would still say by looking at them they are hens. Scott mentioned henny cocks a while back and I've been keeping my eye on these ones but I've been wondering about the heart in the matter. I still want to have the vigor and vitality of the others but not the problems. I guess a person would have to watch the hens he pairs them to, vigorous with lots of vitality? I'm interested in your reply, let me know what you think. I understand the term henny as far as how they look and how they act. In this sense it is how they act. Thanks
Jeff
|