nicksiders

I have heard of breeders pairing only birds of the same family and believing that this is the way you maintain solid performers. I have also heard of breeders pairing best to best no matter what family(s) are involved and this is the key to maintaining solid performers. Can you give the pros and cons of either program? What is the most common and successful practice?

rust never sleeps

Nicksiders this hen is a product of 6 birds out of my "7-birds family" D. Sanchez,O. Harris, R.Luna,S.Estrada, D.Ouellette,R.Espinoza.20' to 50' spinner. FEATHER IN THE WIND HEN, air tested,.the pro's are they come in early 3 to 6 month's and hot, The con's are that some don't make it to 14 months to hot, but the more years i work with 7- birds, there stabling out. a lot of work but it's worth everything. Richard

luis

In my humble opinion Nick linebreeding tightens the genepool and you have birds closely related that share similar genetic factors.This in turn brings out(possitive and negative) traits quicker.Your then able to make corrections to your strain of birds by selecting mates that will better those traits in wich they are weak or lacking all together. When crossing 2 families together you widen that genepool and add more variables to the equation(you can still get good birds from both forms of matings with proper selections).Outbreeding is said to add vigor to your birds,but it is my belief that in order to perpetuate the outstanding qualities in a bird you must linebreed or loose those qualities with each outcrossing.Also if you want birds that perform the same it is good to linebreed.Just my humble opinion,and let it be known i'm no expert!!

W@yne

Nicksiders, In my opinion the best way forward is to breed from a family of birds already established. The reason the family is simple if you want to fly a kit of birds all related and closely bred you wil find example= Eating habits the same.speed,diet. Flying habits the same ie wingbeat,kitting. Rolling same depth, Frequency, Quality. Bird size. These are the traits you want. If you have different strains and you just pick best to best you are on a much longer road.You will find that you will get good birds also you will get bad birds,all sizes differ kitting pattens some eating faster than others etc.I have put this post very basic so people can see where i am coming from.I wasted 4 years breeding best to best with lots of different strains in my loft only to find i was going backwards not forwards.Guys i am not saying you cant do it this way but what i am saying it is a longer longer way of doing it.So what i am saying to newbies is start up with an established family from the word go.I wasnt that fortunate to have the pleasure of getting an established family from the start. Regards W@yne uk

fhtfire

Nick, When I hear the term best to best...to me it is best to best with what you have...not 7 or 8 different families....although..what I find funny is that you can take an established family and look at the pedigree about 5 or more generations back and you will see birds from MANY different lofts.....but of course they may be off the same branch of the roller tree...then you see these pedigrees...starting to tighten up...and BAM you have your own family. I am not saying that you breed from peds..etc...I am just saying what I have seen. I am also not a HUGE believer of the hibrid vigor thing...as many scientist are not either and some are..it is still not a "proven" fact...I posted awhile back on Tony's site about hybrid vigor based on what I know from the years of breeding champion livestock....and nobody would comment on what I wrote...

Because true Hybrid vigor is not what everyone thinks it is on this forum....find the post and read it. Hybrid vigor is not just outcrossing with another stain of the same breed...a hybrid is the crossing of two BREEDS not strains..and Hybrid Vigor is the mating of two BREEDS not strains...that produces offspring better then the parents.....and saying that you bring in a cross from another family to a tight family and you produce a champion bird...and that bird will not produce..because it has hybrid vigor....is a crock too...it is all common sense...in dogs, livestock, birds etc...there are a lot of old wives tales and then there are scientific facts....anyway..look up my post on hybrid vigor....and I am not writing it all again...it took a lot of digging through all my old livestock writings to write that post..LOL.

Basically a Hybrid is the mixing of two breeds..like a pug and lab...or horse and a zebra or a Quarter Horse and a Tenessee walker...or a birmingham roller and a oriental roller....now..the "vigor part" has been contraversial for about elevedy billion years ...it is there when the offspring is better then the parents...basically our birminghams are "hybrid vigor" from the orginal crossing that made it a hybrid (or birmingham roller)....like a dog and a coyote are a "hybrid". Crossing two "breeds" can also go the other way and make them worthless..this is hybrid depression...cross a donkey and a horse..you get a mule..that CAN'T produce..that is hybrid depression....Ok...here is the best example that I can give...the cross between and American Bulldog and the terrier...what did that make.....a PIT BULL...now the people who bred these dogs..for fighting..wanted a dog that was strong, solid, fast, but not to big....and guess what if you think of the power and quickness of a pit and the reletless ability to continue to attack..then I would say if that is what the intention was...which it was..then it is better then both of its parents ..so that is hybrid vigor!!! ANyway..I think you get my point..

So...like I think Wayne said..you inbreed you get the good and the bad..you breed best to best with in a couple families not 7 or 8 and you can get good birds too. I do not know where anybody got there information that if you cross two families and the first year of F_1 from the crossing are freaking rockets...that they will not be able to produce good birds...that is a bunch of bull...It all boils down to trying to get somethng that you consider GOOD into your birds or stock....why do you think they sell horse semen from a champion horse for major money and there is a waiting list to get the goods from that horse...BECAUSE THE WANT TO SEE IF THEY CAN GET SOME OF THE GENES IN THERE FAMILY...that is just out crossing not hybrid vigor...because crossing two quarter horses is not a hybrid...sometimes it works sometimes it does not....it is all about getting something you like and trying to breed it into your stock...nothing more and nothing less...and guess what..there are no guarantees....there are lots and lots of genes....

it is just a gamble and a lot of luck that the genes mix just right and don't come out to salty or two bland but just right.... that is why you can have brothers and sisters from anything and they always have different traits....I could go on and on.....I myself do not believe in lots of inbreeding....and I also do not believe that you mix 7 or 8 families and shot gun blast the genes...I myself have 2 solid families....and I breed best to best within the two families....and sometimes the same family ends up as mates and sometimes they don't...I have had crosses of two families produce good birds after the first generation..and this year we will see if the second generation produces... Anyway...to answer your question.....do what you want..they are your birds....when you do a trial with a new cock or hen....spread him around....and see how he does...pick is best offspring and see how they do..if it works keep it going...if it does not...fall back to your orignal game plan....just like driving...if you turn right at the fork and it is the wrong way..just go back to the fork and go left or keep going straight... The term hybrid vigor on this forum is mostly used as a slang term...some families cross good together and some do not.....that is all it is...the true hybrid vigor are the color breeders....LOL..

if they mix in different breed of pigeon for the color and keeps the color of one parent and rolls better then the other parent....then that is hybrid vigor...or border line...LOL!!! You know you always see those dogs in the park that seem to be REALLY smart...and are chasing frisbys..and are fast and agile and listen and are smart...and you ask the owner god damn that is a smart dog...what is it..and he says a mutt....well that mutt is hybrid vigor....A lion and a tiger together and the offspring is a hybrid..and I wouls say posess hybrid vigor...they are about 250lb heavier then both and still have the speed and agility of both parents..so the offspring show the VIGOR..better then both parents of different BREEDs...Ok I am done.. rock and ROLL Paul fhtfire Sorry nick...I never really said what I do..LOl

Right now I run the Ruby Roller strain and the Mort Emami Strain. They both show the same characteristics when it comes to flying and eating etc. Mort birds seem to be deeper and more powerful in the snapping out..where the Rubys are a little faster and a little more frequent...Morts kit a little tighter longer....Anyway...I am VERY happy with both..some birds show the exact same traits..and those are the ones that go into my stock loft...Now...I breed Rubys to RUbys and Morts to Morts...and I also Breed Morts to RUbys...and I have had great success with both....I do not like to breed Father, Daughter...or Mother Son...just me...never worked...I will breed Cousins, or a Great Aunt...Or GrandFather to Grand daughter..that is just me.

I am having very good results with the crossing of the two families..I did it with two trial pairs...with good results.....so far..most of the birds are 9 months old and doing VERY well..(and it is NOT hybrid vigor)..it is two birds that have the right ingredients that matched up good in the stew....but I am going to try them another year....if the young make the stock loft....then they will get a shot....with a cock or hen from each line and then if it happens to work out....a cross with the crosses..LOL!! So I do breed best to best...becuase only the best make it to my stock loft LOL!!!....I also get those gut feeling that I can't explain and put them together...but to be honest..it is like everyone else..no crystal ball...no delorian time machine..I just put what I feel will work and hope it does...if it doesnt then I mix them up and see if that works...Anyway...that is jus how I do it...wrong or right..it seem to work for me rock and ROLL Paul

MCCORMICKLOFTS

Ain't nothing wrong with crossing families or mating "best to best" regardless of background in order to set the path to where you would like to be down the road. Richard Jaconette is a good example. He crossed Smith, Perkins, Houghton and others to creat his family. Both Norm Reed and Jerry Higgins used birds from different families when they started to build what they currently have. Look where it got them. Joe Bob has admitted to his breeding practice of crossing families, his record speaks for itself. When someone gets this roller breeding thing all figured out, be sure to let me know when your recipe book is coming out. I'll be the first guy in line to buy a copy. Brian.

JMHD

Brian that's true Bill Shrieber told me when he made his family he used 3 different familys. John M.(HDRC)So,Cal.

luis

Outbreeding:Sometimes called outcrossing,is the introduction into a pure line of a bird or birds of another breed or VARIETY,in only 1 or a few matings in order to secure from the breed outcrossed upon some particular character desired,or to infuse into the pure line a dash of new blood for purposes of VIGOR.

Velo99

I am in the process of melding 6 families into one. Since I am not comfortable flying my breeders, I bred from several pairs last season. Now I am taking the 4 best producers and circling the wagons around them. Next season I will have two year old hens to select from to put back on the cocks. If they cut the mustard. In 09 I think I will poly the best producing original cockbird back on the four best 07 hens in a limited production. From there choosing bext to best within the 08-09 hens. I should have them narrowed down to a point I can call my strain. Even at that I will end up with 2or3 substrains in my familiy. jmho V99

Bluesman

I am still a firm beliver in just mating best to best and raising lots of them and picking out what I like.The only long range plan I have is to live to enjoy them.LOL. David

motherlodelofts

The tighter the birds , the better , no if's an or butts , if you don't think so , you never had a solid family to know the difference. This I know from experiance. But for those unfortunate one's that have to cross, at the very least make sure that they are at least close as possible to management , type, ect., and for god sake don't try to cool down overcooked culls with good solid birds. If you are crossing I would keep the number of birds used as foundation to the fewest possible , if you can find 3 that gell together , and are able to inbreed/line breed this should be all you need , and will be easier to get them on the same page Scott

Fanaddic

I have a family of birds that are from a friend that started with two cocks and three hens from Barrett and Brown imports close to thirty years ago. He has not added another family to this mix. I have done the same with his birds (two cocks and three hens), I thought I would not have the extra hen sit idle for a couple rounds so I found a real good bird in my mind from another friend and raised up 10 young from this family crossing. All ten are the greatest roll downs I have ever seen. 4-5 times each flight and would keep on ticking if allowed to still exsist. It could have went the other way and I could have lucked out and had one of those click pairings. it's a gamble.

I would say people need to stick with and learn from what they have and either make something from thier birds or get a better family and try again. Then once you have become comfortable with what you have you can go forward with the thought of working on a crossing. I think to many people give up to quick or are to eager to jump on the next fade or family that is doing well. Even when they aquire these new super birds they have no real understanding of what they have.

So in my mind you can go either way, stick to one family or mix and match. The one common thing is to be competent in knowing what you have and how to move forward. The novice will not gain this from mixing and matching, they need a well grounded family to learn the traits, etc first and then possibly move on to mixing if still looking for something thier family is lacking. Dave

W@yne

Brian You posted Ain't nothing wrong with crossing families or mating "best to best" regardless of background in order to set the path to where you would like to be down the road. Brian you are right if you have up to ten years at least to spare every established family starts by crossing strains in the first place, Why do some flyer's over there need 3 or 4 different strains in your lofts? Just don't make sense to me, All i am saying by mix and matching using different strains all the time is not good practice.

I don't know any successful flyer over here that flys different strains. A newbie roller guy starting off with say 4 different strains is on a road to nowhere unless he has done some dam good homework and has mega time on his hands. Its not rocket science to figure why a family of birds with a tight gene pool will always come on top than a guy flying mix and match i don't need to explain why you will know where i am coming from. All i am saying is your post is the longer longer longer way to do it.Ps the average flyer will not have the knowledge of Joe Bob and Jerry Higgins. regards W@yne uk

JMHD

You should breed best to best and agree that a close family of birds is best but when the family of birds are at a point of needing a cross the hard part is finding that other family that is compatable to the family you are working with.You can touch them in with that other family then bring it back to your family to keep them similar. John M.(HDRC)So,Cal.

Bluesman

Fellows.Here is what I believe. I could take the best pair of the top 10 breeders on this forum,put them all together and raise as good a percentage of good rollers from them as what the majority of the breeders can by "circling the wagon around that same pair".David

Velo99

Wayne, I was given a large lot of birds of various families.I consider myself lucky. If it takes me a bit longer to get there so be it. I keep repeating to myself,three to five years. I am going on the third season breeding. I feel I have plenty of time to develope my breeding techniques. I will be where I want to be, barring any outside influences.That point being, having the pairs located that produce the goods. I have a fair idea now and will spend the next two seasons proving the pairs and narrowing the gene pool. V99

fhtfire

Luis, When you infuse the new blood from a different strain within the same breed for certain traints...that is...not Vigor. That is just selective breeding...Genetic traits is all that you are after...vigor is when you bring in a different "Breed" not family but breed....if your bring in a different family and outcrossing all you are doing is selective breeding to try and obtain what that outcross has and putting it in your familiy. Vigor is the opposite of depression..to get vigor again is a different breed and or variety like you said...a different breed for example is mating a parlor roller to a Stiff birmingham roller and trying to put more roll in your stiff birds..

IF the offspring come our and roll like a true birmingham and are better then the parents (becuase one was a stiff and one would not fly)and the offspring meets YOUR goal...then you have the VIGOR...if the bird flys 100'and rolls down then rolls across the ground and that was not your goal...then that is depression.....bringing in an outcross of the same familiy is not true vigor...you are not supercharging the genes with a two totally different traits....You are just selective breeding to try and bring that trait into your familiy. Like when I am going to breed my Lab...I am going to pick a stud that has traits that I like...like a bigger square head...and a little more size....the offspring would not have vigor..they are both purebred labs..I am just selective breeding for small traits...go outside the breed to TOTALLY blast the genes...and you will have your vigor(maybe) but it could go the other way too...

The very reason that there are debates in the science community on what is true hybrid vigor..basically boils down to ...the term...BEAUTY is in the ey of the BEHOLDER...meaning that the person breeding who sets the goal of the offspring is the only one that can say that it is hybrid vigor..you may mate the example together above and the offspring roll like a true birmingham...and is better then the stiff dad by actually rolling and is better then the Parlor Mom..because it can actually fly.....you will call that vigor based on your goal...I may look at the bird and call depression...because it does not meet the standard of either breed and it has crappy quality and poor speed...but you achieved your goal...but then I feel you goal does not live up to the standard of either breed...so I would call it depression...get my point...that is why it is often debateable...the best way to look at the hybrid vigor is your plain old mutt dog that is chasing frisbies and is smarter then a whip....you know what I am talking about the mutt that you see on those amazing animal shows doing all the tricks...they are usally muts..LOL!!

but they have the energy and the "Vigor" to perform in everyway..although they do not meet any standard in any set breed..so the purist would call them depression because they do not meet any one standard. Using Vigor as "slang" is totally fine if it helps you in your breeding projects...just like I say that one of my rollers is a "rocket" it is not actually a rocket......but people know what I am talking about. Anyway...I have done a lot of research when I was breeding livestock (Champion)..and I read a lot of publishings on Vigor and a lot saying that it is not Vigor...the one thing that is fact...is it has to be between two breeds not families....Vigor is something that makes the animal or plant...FAR SUPERIOR to the parents...rock and ROLL Paul

motherlodelofts

"the pro's are they come in early 3 to 6 month's and hot" Richard , how is coming in early and "hot" a "pro" ? Scott

rust never sleeps

Hey Scott! How you doing. I my self breed for the early developers my choice. this is my story on this subject. Back in the late 90's i had Don O. birds he never let me pick out birds from the air, to buy only birds from his kit boxes un -flown! 3 times i was up at his place my self David. S.Richard.E. well don came up to my place at covina ca, when i was living there, he was a judge that year. Well the birds i flow that day were not good that day, so what does DON say. to my face that i have SHIT BIRDS.

So 3 month's later i and David go up to his place to buy 5 pairs but i can't buy no stock birds. well i breed those 5 pr's WHICH HE SAY'S TO STOCK. and stock the 1st rounders and breed from those well i did and flown 4 Kits for 2 years.i get a call from a breeder in so.cal his name is Ron Anno say's he has the same family, that he has 7 kit boxes full and he's not happy with don birds.So around a week later i get a call from Don that he is hearing that his birds are not working for the breeders in so cal .

And what Don tells me next is why i starteed my OWN FAMILY that "his family skips a generation on performace" so thats why i breed for early developers.BUT I ALSO GET LATE 12 TO 14 MONTHS and EARLY 3 TO 6 MONTHS.i'm HAPPY WHAT SEE IN THE AIR .

motherlodelofts

Richard , stiffs suck no doubt , but nor do I see "hot" as a good thing. I prefere stable with plenty of roll , I find that if my birds aren't showing potential by 9-10 month's it aint coming. My birds tend to come in from 4-8 monthes , I prefere them "not" to come in to early like 5 monthes or younger, they tend to have trouble with stability. Scott MCCORMICKLOFTS

luis

Wayne, I raise and fly three different families....and they seem to be doing pretty good. I'm probably a fool though. luis

luis

Paul, When i put the word "vigor" in my statement here is what i thought it was supposed to mean. Vigor:active strength or force,healthy mental and physical energy or power,vitality. Force of healthy growth in any living matter or organism. I don't have to much experience w/breeding rollers but some of the inbreeding that goes on in rollers just wouldn't hold up in other performing breeds.In the Sporting Pouter wich is the pigeon i bred for many years, you could not do that or you would end up w/lame birds unable to complete the simplest of tasks. When i spoke of "vigor" i meant infusing the birds w/ the vitality,inteligence,strength and physical energy that perhaps they lacked by to much inbreeding(linebreeding).I never said the word "hybrid".I appreciate the fact that you're well versed on the subject and are willing to share your knowledge but i thought i should explain what i meant.

fhtfire

Luis, That is what I thought you meant....I thought I read hybrid in there... I read the post at like 1am after a couple of high balls...LOL!! You use the word exactly how it should be used...putting vigor into your birds is just like you said...plain old selective breeding to get the best out of your birds.....I just get frustrated when I hear hybrid vigor thrown around when that is not what it is...I stand corrected after I re-read your post..LOL!! A perfect example...it even on the NBRC site..someone talked about crossing two "families" together to get the hybrid vigor...They need to say..just vigor...if they say hybrid..they must have crossed in one of your pouters...LOL..Thanks for the post....sorry...I did not want you to think I was going after you...I was just trying to throw some info out there...rock and ROLL Paul Fullerton

rust never sleeps

Scott! Your right 3 to 6 months tend to have trouble with stability that's very true, but this is my 5th year but i can spot the trouble ones and i can spot keepers so it's 50-50 but NO MORE STIFFS, these past 4 years have been great i'm keeping my head in the game and having fun with my pigeons

luis

Hey Paul That's what is all about,putting the info out there for all to read and learn or put it to the test(if we are skeptical).I think we could all learn a little something from each other as we all have different experiences.

motherlodelofts

Good deal Richard !!!!!! It sounds like you did a lot of head bumping with the other birds and that you are now making solid progress. I used to feel the same, my good one's were few and far inbetween , luckily the good one's in this familiy stay good so I could fly decent teams, but it took a couple seasons to build them. Once I started concentrating on just those few birds (DUH LOL) and their prodigy that were consistanly putting birds in the A team the percentage of good one's went through the roof compared to what I had , and one top of it I get less unstable birds , so I know how you are feeling , good luck and I hope it keeps moving forward for you. Scott

sippi

I like best to best within a family. I like the family tree to look like a big stump. Sippi

luis

I still feel exactly the same on this subject Gary. The Tighter the family the better your chances of duplicating the goods in any given pair.It's up to the breeder to do the oppossite with the negative traits!To much in the mix and you never know what the heck is gonna hatch out of those eggs!!!Simple Math really.

CSRA

crossing can be good and not so good u will have to do a 3 to 4 year resarch and see if they get better or worst

3757

When you cross you add all sorts of variables and other unknown traits. First, cross for what reason? Most guys do not even learn a family and start out by crossing? Usually because of something they heard which most of the time is not scientifically sound. There are already a myriad of traits within a line and you can change a line or create sub-families within a particular strain. A cross should be done only when it absolutely impossible to get what you need within a line and that is usually not absolute if you are speaking about rolling propensities. Color is a different subject.

Scott

Some good points LaRon, my feeling is that if it isn't already there they are the wrong birds to begin with. Most that I have seen cross for a purpose are in reality downbreeding a good line into an inferior one due to an attachment to it. Scott

Shaun

Scott, do you remember a couple of years ago we were discussing what had happened to Graham Dexter's birds? It seemed that over many years, slowly but surely, his strain of rollers was becoming more seldom with age. Graham had obviously concentrated heavily on quality and stability, but over time his birds seemed to stiffen up. I reckon at that point he might have considered an out-cross or a merge with a different strain, but in the end he dumped what he had and started again with Dave Moseley's birds. I remember thinking at the time that if a man of Graham's experience didn't warm to the idea of mixing different strains, then it probably wasn't the best idea for someone less experienced to have a shot. Probably best to start again with something different, if the existing strain isn't producing the goods. Shaun

3757

Scott - I have to agree to that. One key point is what does the individual want out of his or hers family and pursue that and do not lose focus. Shawn – Good discussion! I would like to make a point and that is if a person has a set goal he or she must understand what it takes to get to that goal. Now, I cannot understand why anyone would want a bunch of stiffs but if that is the goal than pursue it by selecting birds like Howard McCully's stable Mabel and bam you are there. I think most people do not want to put the time into breeding and selecting and would prefer the microwave version. They continue with this microwave version until there is a problem and get another microwave. If someones birds are stolen or a disaster happens that is a different story. If you look at the 1079/369 and 370 families that I have from Herb and what others have out there these birds are not like the originals but have been continuously cultivated to make progress. People could have giving up and said let me try this or that but progress has been constant. I think Ken Billings is a perfect example of that. Scott you may have more details but I know for a fact that before Chandler Grover received the pairs that were sent down to San Diego the owner was not happy but look where the birds are today and the progress that was made. Chan saw the potential in those birds and could see where those birds could go forward! These birds were not discarded but the owners saw the potential and pursued a goal. Incidentally, these birds were off of champion spinners and producers but one individual did not care for them for whatever reason. It just goes to show you that not everyone will be happy no matter what. How is it that people are successful with the decedents of these birds and the reason is that persistence and a goal got them there! We must understand that not everyone’s goal is the same and if your goal is stiff pigeons that is ok if that is what you like the key is have a goal and pursue it without a goulash!

fhtfire

Scott, I agree to a point that SOME do cross for an attachement. Some cross because they have to..they get to the point where to many negative faults come to the fore front and that is going to happen sooner or later you can't stop it. Inbreeding is never a good thing to do for a long period of time. Sooner or later the inbreeding will start the spiral downward.......so it is that happy medium of knowing when to try a cross and having that balance...some wait until it is to late to add a cross. Or there are the ones like me that are crossing families to bring the best of both strains together and I was also crossing my fingers in hope that it would work. It was a 3 year project of testing and testing to see how it worked and it is coming around....Now that i know what cream is rising to the top and most of the good birds are coming from certain pairs and there offspring are passing it on too....it is all starting to come together. I am on my 4th generation of bringing the two families together and I am pleased with the results....I am now going to tighten my line up....but I will not lock into inbreeding because I do not believe in it...the closes I go is Uncles,Aunts, Cousins and Grandparents...but when I go back..I take those offspring and then breed them to a bird that is not very close in relation on one side. I have mixed feelings on the inbreeding and I myself stay away from the close matings.....I also believe that there is nothing wrong with crosses if done right and you pay attention. You also have to make sure and relieve yourself of pairs that are not in your game plan so you are not tempted to take a step backwards.....but keep the base pairs in case you make a mistake and you can go back to your base to recover...and that is all I have to say about that. Mort was down this week looking at property in the Davis Woodland area and is planning on moving to our area. He is excited to get back into competing...the last time he competed he won the Utah State Fly.....the falcons were taking 8 birds everytime he opened the door so now he is back...anyway...he was happy with my crossing of the Rubys and the Morts....the A-team flew real good for hime and the young birds were showing there potential...but he liked the improvement from when he was down in 05 rock and ROLL Paul

Scott

( How is it that people are successful with the decedents of these birds and the reason is that persistence and a goal got them there! ) LaRon, it comes down to individule pigeons that are/were used where these decedents are concerned, you can't paint these birds with a broad brush and it all boils down to selection of particular birds and nothing more. And for that reason is why I shudder at the continual breeding of unflown pigeons due to what is behind them,good blood means little if cull traits are used and there is only one way to know what an idividule pigeon is and that is to fly it hard and put it through the test of time, there is no other way and parantage is no garrantee of anything. These birds have an uncanny way of passing on traits,stiff,un-stable,poorq uality,wing position and even little details of how they exit the roll, if you breed birds with such traits you "will" breed more. No gene pool is so tight that it never breeds undesireables, my point being ,fly the dog crap out of the little Bastards and only breed out of what you want more of and draw the gene pool tight around such pigeons. Old blood is worthless if the right birds weren't selected and used all the way down the generations to our lofts today,and that is why so much of what people claim as old line Pensom is totaly worthless and in no way represents the breed,some hold on to this rubbish just for the sake of it. I guess the point of my post is that I only care about the birds within my own loft and what they are producing in the air,not 1079 which is behind my stock, I can breed a loft full of culls loaded with this stuff if I failed to select my stock correctly,matter of fact I have seen lofts of cull are loaded with 1079,514 ect. by people that took their eye off of the ball or brought them in by others that cared more for what they looked like on paper than in the air. On a side note, I'm noticing that my birds are coming in 4-5 mo. now instead of 6-7 months, the reason is I have been breeding out of my best of the prior season,which means they were earlier developers, then I put them back up in the air,more of a test breeding. I only use those that are stable as rocks and full of quality roll,now I have solid stability and better percentages of good one's that come in ealier, in other words selection at work here. I have a hen in the A team now that has 3 siblings in there with her, one son has benn pulled for trial stock and she will find a permanent spot in stock after the Fall fly, two other hens have been moved back out to fly as they have several in the youngster kits. This is how I build my stock, they fly for two or three years but they also get test matings in the mean time also if they are showing exceptional goods and stable as can be. Never do I do this with any pigeon that shows any sign of stability issues as we are talking of birds 10-13 mo old. Stability has nothing to do with not having plenty of roll, it all boils down to selection. Scott

3757

Scott - No offense but this is a perfect example of misinterpretation of what was said. Here are some of my quotes "I think most people do not want to put the time into breeding and selecting and would prefer the microwave version. “originals but have been continuously cultivated to make progress” I think you agreed with me as I stated that there was a goal and the birds were selected for that goal. Correct me if I am wrong but if you read what I said I did not paint them with a broad brush. Maybe I am crazy but your response did not have anything to do with what I stated. Help me out here?

Scott

Well, Im doing this between work out sets and it became a long rambling story,sorry bud. The short story is summed up as selection and nothing else. Scott

3757

Same thing I said in my post as you have to have a goal and select for the desired traits that you want to cultivate. I hope you have a great workout!

Scott

(I think most people do not want to put the time into breeding and selecting and would prefer the microwave version.) Spot on LaRon and is why you see so many constantly dragging birds home,it is a constant building/maintaining process once you have the right building blocks and time is measured by years when it comes to these birds,nothing fast about it. Scott