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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Are they tame, or not?
Are they tame, or not?
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Shaun
8 posts
Jul 03, 2005
1:40 PM
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I would have thought tameness in all pigeons in captivity - not just rollers - would be a good thing, yet so many seem pretty wild. The ones I've bred are great up to a point, as I've held them since they were babies, but those I've acquired from lofts elsewhere, whether they're just months or years old, just hate to be handled.
All the birds are fine with me being around them, but if I get too close they flap around maniacally. As the ones I breed slowly but surely follow the older loonies, it seems that a tame loft isn't going to happen.
I can appreciate that someone breeding dozens of birds per year with various other commitments, isn't going to have time to fondle them all day, so as to make them fly on his/her shoulder upon entering the loft, but all this panic upon picking a bird up, does seem extreme. I actually find it ironic that the same little twots that do this, when hungry enough are all over you.
I've already established a few tricks, such as picking them up at dusk, so they don't react as quickly, or when they're eating I grab one quickly from above, etc - but, that's cheating and not what I mean. I want no such tricks, just relatively calm birds.
Any observations or techniques, anyone?
Shaun
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Mount Airy Lofts
14 posts
Jul 03, 2005
2:16 PM
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The problem lies in your stock birds. There are overly wild birds and there are relatively calm to tame birds. Alot of top fliers wouldn't breed out of a Wild Bird nor would they tolerate it in their kit box. These are the birds that will make your other pigeons jump out of their perches or take flieght for no apparent reason. Breed out of such a bird will only get you alot more.
If you want normal birds don't breed out of these Wild birds. Aim for those who are relatively calm but when held will try to inch their way out. Of course, they also have to meet your performance standard.
I have this particular line that I call the TAME line. Many, many people out there have such a line. This TAME line will produce mostly tame to normal birds. Such birds will be naturally Tame. You can get them to be really tame if you handle them more as young birds but that is a different story... as I am just talking about being naturally tame. These particular birds will not fly away when you try to handle them in the loft or kit box. Even when stock, they will stay Tame. Not attack you when you check their eggs or babies, not move at all when you grab them off the perches, etc.
There are Wild Birds and There are Normal and Tame Birds. Nothing good can come from Wild Birds. They are the fast fliers, easily spooked, hitting your face flying birds.
It's all about what you stock!!
Just my thoughts,
Thor
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Shaun
9 posts
Jul 04, 2005
10:04 AM
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Thor, whilst it's reassuring to know that tame birds are not uncommon, I still would have thought that the wilder ones wouldn't necessarily breed the same adverse trait into their offspring. Actually, I've already bred one from a big wild bugger, and the little chap is as tame as can be.
If wildness was transferable down the line, it suggests genetics yet, surely, the birds' environment will play a more important part in their behaviour.
Actually, I'll be able to evaluate things a bit further very shortly. Some of my wild birds (flighty, us Brits call them) are from George Mason and they were about 8 weeks old when I got them a few weeks ago. I've got another 20 even younger birds of his arriving any day soon. This lot will be in a loft all on their own, thus unaffected by any other birds around them. It will be interesting to see whether my loft conditions turn them into well-behaved birds, or whether they're pre-programmed to misbehave, due to their lineage.
Still, I'm glad you've got a well-behaved loft - that's something for me to aspire to.
Shaun
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
334 posts
Jul 04, 2005
1:33 PM
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Shaun.George's birds are just Hyper Active.LOL. David
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Mount Airy Lofts
15 posts
Jul 04, 2005
9:39 PM
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To what I have experience... it is genetic. I say this because I used hens in the past that were of this Wild Type. They bred nothing but more Wild Bird.
I know of a fellow here who is still breeding out of a Wild Cock bird. That bird produce nothing but Wild youngsters. This Cock bird was bred out of a Wild Hen I had used in the past... so go figure.
I suppose you can try to find a medium if you mate a Overly Wild Bird that was just the best spinner you have ever seen with a Overly Tame Bird that was it's equal in performance... altho with what I have experience, you will breed alot more Wild Pigeons than normal ones.
If it isn't genetic than I don't know what is going on.
They sure get on my nerves - that's why I don't bother with them anymore.
Don't you just hate those birds that when you go in to grab-they will fly all over the place trying to get away? Don't they know who's hands feed them? These are the birds that will rather lose all their feathers then letting you handle them.
Thor
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Shaun
10 posts
Jul 04, 2005
10:35 PM
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Thor, that exactly what mine do. They sit on their perches until I make a move to pick one up, then they're all over the place. Sometimes you have to grab at their feathers mid air to get a hold.
David, what have you found with your Mason's? Have you been able to exercise any control over them?
Shaun
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
339 posts
Jul 05, 2005
3:06 AM
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Shaun.Yes I have.And I wish I had known more about them before.I sold off some of my original breeders that I wish I had kept.I just didn,t know how to handle them.The ones I kept and the young they are producing I am able to fly right along with my other rollers.This is a good example of someone changing a family of rollers.I selected birds from the Mason family according to what I liked.They still look like the original ones but they act differently.
However if I had back the ones I let go I would fly them seperate and handle them differently.I really think the different terrain has a lot to do with the way different families work.I am still trying new things and I sure have a lot to learn yet.I don,t think anyone makes as many mistakes as I do.LOL.
Don,t get in a hurry with your rollers from George.Talk with him as much as you can and learn everything you can about the way he handles his family.Your birds are new to you and you to them.In time I think you will see them settle down and accept you.I think you said he shipped them to you.Shipping puts more stress on them than most folks realize.Put me in a box and make me go thru what they do and see how I would react.LOL. David
P.S.Thor gave some good advice too.I am just talking about what you recently got from George.
Last Edited by Bluesman on Jul 05, 2005 3:11 AM
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Shaun
11 posts
Jul 05, 2005
10:16 AM
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Thanks, David - wise words I'm sure. I'm as gentle as possible with the birds and ensure they know me and my voice. However, if George's line itself is genetically programmed to be less than calm, then perhaps I have to accept that. However, I shall persevere with the birds I breed from this lot - handling them, stroking them, talking to them, etc.
Actually, you might have a valid point about the different landscape which exists where you are, compared to where the Mason birds originated from. I notice with the five youngsters of George's that I'm currently flying that they whiz in and out of the trees and I'm sure they're going to crash, but they don't. Maybe it's like pigeons on your side of the pond avoiding the hawks!
So, I propose a scientific test - David and Thor, we'll see if what seems to be my genetically wild buggers, can produce youngsters which will fly to my shoulder as I enter the loft. Well, OK, maybe not. How about I see if I can condition them so they just won't flap around as much and I can stop grabbing at the air?
Shaun
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spinnerpigeon
25 posts
Jul 05, 2005
10:22 AM
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Hey all,
Shaun are your birds in a kitbox style loft? Or are they in a walk-in? I think you are right, in that enviroment plays a large part in their tameness. If a bird soon learns that it can't fly away from you when you try and grab it, it will soon tame up. I keep my breeders in an over-sized kit box (I think it measures around 7ft long x 3ft deep x 40in high) If they are kept in tighter quarters they will often become more tame, because they know that they can't get away when you try and handle them. The kit birds, I think for the majority will always be a slight bit flighty. You could try getting them fairly hungry and hold the food in your hands, and see if any will come up to you and eat. I have done this with racing homers and it works fairly well. Also, another thing that I think would help in tameing a bird is how much you handle it when it is in the nest. If you handle it often when it is young, it will naturally be more tame than a bird that was rarely handled. Just my 2 cents.
Caleb
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Shaun
12 posts
Jul 05, 2005
12:49 PM
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Caleb, that's my main point. I hope that if I spend time with the babes and treat them gently, they're more likely to stay tame, regardless of the line. I'm questioning whether guys with big lofts who breed birds by the dozen, have wilder ones simply because the younguns haven't been held during those formative weeks, so they're naturally wary of humans and getting them tame is always going to be difficult.
If in fact wild birds only ever breed wild birds, as Thor suggests with his experience, it may be a lost cause, my trying to keep the birds tame once they're out of the nest and in with the others.
I do have all my birds within arm's reach (all different ages) and they readily feed from my hand. As dusk descends, they're easy to pick from their perches. However, in the broad light of day, they really don't like it, hence all the flapping about like crazy.
Because I work from home, I can pop up and down to see the birds all day long, so one of my aims is to breed tame youngsters but, as Thor has experienced - are the genetics against me? If I have a wild strain, am I wasting my time?
Shaun
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Mount Airy Lofts
16 posts
Jul 05, 2005
10:05 PM
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I don't believe there is a cure for these Wild Type birds. They are born that way. You can change the bird alittle but you can't change the genetics.
I'm not sure if you guys are talking about the same thing. Handling them alot more as young birds will do little difference. The point is they have the genes to be Wild. They will have this paranoid _expression.
That is like saying you can turn a natural 'cull' into a 'champion'.
Most if not all these paranoid birds have been high fliers-to my experience.
Thor
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
52 posts
Jul 05, 2005
10:37 PM
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Two ways to have tame pigeons
#1. Don't catch them. They don't want to be caught and learn real quick when you are trying to catch them. If you are just calm around them, they will be calm around you. You can even teach them to eat feed from your hand, but you have to do so in a manner that has solidified a level of comfort in them. I have one old cock in my A team that will fly to my hand outside the loft if I have feed in it. I don't try to catch him. He is just confident that I won't and he is there for a purpose which I am nourishing.
#2. Hand feed them. You can make a pet out of a pigeon in a heart beat if you hand feed it as a youngster.
Brian.
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Shaun
13 posts
Jul 05, 2005
11:11 PM
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Thor, maybe we're looking at different types of pigeon. Mine look absolutely fine - no wild look at all. So long as I don't get too close, they stay on their perches. They will also readily feed from my hand - but they just don't like to be caught. Brian has a point in just not catching them, but sometimes it's important to do so, say to separate some birds from others or to examine them for some reason.
Shaun
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
344 posts
Jul 06, 2005
3:23 AM
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Shaun.What I do is limit my catching unless absolutly neccesary.My breeding pairs once they are mated if I need to catch one I will wait untill it is taking its turn on the nest.Most of my breeders will allow me to do what I want around there nest.There is some that will slap me around and if they didn,t produce what they do they would be gone.I don,t fault a bird for being protective around the nest unless it gets to excessive.The one thing I have found that works is like Brian said be calm around them.Never grab at them.Just do everything in a slow relaxed manner and the birds will accept you quicker.When a visitor goes into my lofts sometimes they will get excited for awhile but for the most part they stay calm.But I am able to spend hours a day with them.Always watching and planning my next pairings.LOL.The more time you spend with them the calmer they will become. You can tell a bird that is genetically wild.David
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Shaun
14 posts
Jul 06, 2005
12:13 PM
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David, what you say makes sense. I do spend a lot of time around them and make small, quiet movements so as not to spook them. That's why they sit on their perches and they will eat out of my hand - but, they just don't like being handled.
Remember my telling you I had 20 more George Mason birds on the way? Well, they arrived today. It was bloody mayhem at first as they all jostled for position, but I'd made loads of new perches until their own breeding loft is ready for them. Within a couple of hours, they'd all settled down nicely - even one baby which George warned me had been scalped, but it was bred from such a good cock, that he thought it best to include it.
I've been ordered by George not to fly them, but to lock 'em up and breed from them when they're ready. I then fly the youngsters which they produce for a season, then select the best cock and three best hens from those flyers, to form my foundation stock - well, that's the theory anyway!
On this theme, I've a new post which you guys might like to contribute to...
Shaun
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Mount Airy Lofts
17 posts
Jul 06, 2005
7:23 PM
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There is only one type of Wild Expression. These are the birds that have a Wild Look to their eyes. Almost all of them would rather starve to death then eat off your hand. They are born that way. Right off the nest, they will shy away from you. As they mature and start to show their _expression, you can clearly tell by the look in their eyes that they will be of this type.
A normal bird will usually hate it when you handle them. Of course any bird will try to shy a way. This is normal. The ones I am talking about are extreme. They have a look in their eyes that will usually give them away.
Thor
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fhtfire
157 posts
Jul 06, 2005
7:26 PM
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Well,
I do think it is genetics..but I also think that is the handler too. My Chuck Roe birds are mean as hell, the Ruby Rollers, Emami and Campbell birds are pretty tame. I have a Lavin cock that will coo like crazy when he is on the nest and I put my hand to him..he will not peck...snap the wing...just coo. The truth is that they do not like to be held...period...unless you hand fed it from a baby.
I think it is all about being calm....enter the loft calm..make your movements calm. I had a wild cock in my loft and every chance I got I would grab him slow and hold him for a couple minutes...then I would open my hand slow and let him leave my hand nice and easy. He is very tame now.
As for my kit birds...I hold all my young birds. When they are in the nest...I check them after every feeding...blowing my feed whistle. I check them for injury..health and to make sure they do not throw a band. I think that really helps....they are calm when I enter the loft and handle them in the nest...no blowing up and popping...they just know that I am not a threat. When I move them to the kit box...after feeding...I handle most of the birds most of the time...checking to maks sure they all got enough grub...check the feathers...feel them to see if they are getting light on me. All my kit birds are pretty tame. It is all about smooth movement, handling the birds a lot and trust.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Shaun
16 posts
Jul 06, 2005
11:34 PM
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Thanks, guys. I'm somewhat reassured. I don't have the truly wild ones which Thor mentions, simply everyday birds which don't much like being handled. I'll persevere with keeping the ones I breed tame, which has been much easier, as I handle them so much.
I think I was concerned as I'd read many a racing pigeon article where the interviewer would visit a loft and comment on how tame the birds were - you know, the owner would walk up and pick any bird off its perch without any fuss. There was even one guy that whilst the interviewer was in his house, there were racers in there sitting on his shoulder and what have you. It seems that rollers aren't made the same way, so from your input I've adjusted my expectations accordingly.
Shaun
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
346 posts
Jul 07, 2005
2:47 AM
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Shaun.You had me worried there for awhile.LOL. I thought you were on the edge of culling those Mason rollers. David
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Shaun
19 posts
Jul 07, 2005
10:44 AM
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David - now that I have 20 more of them to contend with, they've got to teach me how to behave!
Shaun
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Velo99
37 posts
Jul 07, 2005
2:42 PM
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I have discovered that with a little distraction,I can catch my birds quite easily and with a minimum of commotion.
I use my left hand to keep the birds attention and slowly kinda swoop my other UNDER the bird. Kinda cupping him in. Then I pick him up and flip him around . The legs are in position to properly hold the bird.
voila.
yits
v99
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Mount Airy Lofts
18 posts
Jul 07, 2005
5:02 PM
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Shaun,
My tame line birds will land on me if they see me. They will also try to follow me to a point (50 feet or less). To my knowledge, the Hen that started it all was naturally tame. I was told that every time she came in to land, she would land directly on her owner's shoulder. The descendents I have off this Tame Hen hasn't done this but will land on me after they landed on the loft.
I believe our rollers are as tame as any homers. It all starts from one bird that is extremely tame and carry the performance to back it up.
Thor
Last Edited by Mount Airy Lofts on Jul 07, 2005 5:07 PM
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