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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
The George Mason 20 - what would you do?
The George Mason 20 - what would you do?
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Shaun
34 posts
Jul 13, 2005
2:09 PM
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This a follow-up to my post as to when I can expect the 20 youngsters, which I just obtained from George Mason, to start breeding, etc. Thanks for the advice. Much appreciated.
The master plan was in place ready for the end of this year to churn out Mason babies by the dozen, to then pick the best flyers which they produce, with which to then form my proper foundation stock. I know it's a long road, but something of a safe one too..
However, to throw something of a spanner in the works, tonight the man himself rang for a chat to see how I was coping with the birds (I should mention he's very big on giving them a regular bath!).
I said that much as I could see the logic of locking up these 20 and breeding from them, to then fly their offspring, to then pick the best from those, to then breed from those foundation stock - isn't there some mileage in just flying this full kit of 20 youngsters (despite my inexperience), picking the best from those, then breeding from them, thus skipping a generation and bringing forward the breeding program by a year or so.
George's response was to the effect that, yes, I could fly the 20 right now and then pick the best of those flyers to breed from. But, here's the risk: What if among this 20 are a couple of spectacular birds (typical percentage) - and by flying them, I happen to lose one or more of those particular birds? Wouldn't I be gutted?
George (clearly having far more patience than me) reaffirmed that by locking them down, flying losses won't happen. However, he also understands why, having just started out and raring to go, I might prefer the enjoyment of flying the 20 right now, to take my chances with any losses, to then breed from the best of those flyers.
So, my question is this: If you were in the same position as me would you:
A) Keep the 20 locked up, breed from them and use the best of the offspring as foundation stock (clearly, you have the patience of a saint); or
B) Fly the 20, run the risk of losing some of them, then breed from the best of those remaining flyers (clearly, you don't have much patience, you probably smoke and drink too much and you don't use condoms, when you know you should).
Currently, I don't have a hawk problem.
Perhaps I should also mention that George was envious of the fact that I've built myself a log cabin to work at home from, with my rollers right alongside me in their loft. So, this tells me that even after 40 years in the game, George would still like to be right next to his rollers. Now isn't that nice?
OK, cut to the quick - are you A or B?
Cheers.
Shaun
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Mount Airy Lofts
22 posts
Jul 13, 2005
2:31 PM
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Shaun,
I was told - even the Great Monty Neibel held prisoners (prisoners are simply just birds that have been locked up right from the let go) of such. Look what the results of alot of flying and picking the correct birds did.
If you asked me... I would tell you to ask Mr. Mason to pick these prisoners for you as to pairing them up. The question then is, how far does Mr. Mason live and is he willing to stop by for the whole day and do this...
The best thing anyone can do besides flying out their birds is to let the breeder pick your pairs from such prisoners for you. Especially a breeder of this experience. Remember, Mr. Mason has been in this hobby for a very long time and has done extremely well with his Birmingham Rollers and Tripplers. He has bred a consistant family of rollers for ages now. This would mean he know's his stuff, especially his birds- the Ins and Outs. I doesn't get any better then that. Such fanciers of this experience have been known to 'cull' a bird right out of the nest! This is only possible by experience! Experience of the family!
One thing I have learn most in this hobby is to ask alot of questions and listen. Take in what makes sense and filter out the BS. The man is telling you the best route. If it makes sense, then take it in and do it. (grin)
Just my experience,
Thor
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
361 posts
Jul 13, 2005
2:50 PM
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Shaun.If something should happen to this kit would you be able to get another kit from George?
If so I would fly this kit out and pick from them the ones I liked the best.You can probably call George just about anytime you want to for advice.
If getting another kit would be hard to do then I would lock them down and breed from them.
You can be sure you are going to lose some of them for whatever reason.
You also run the risk of losing a good one.You also run the risk by locking them down to breed from a bad one.
I was Blessed to be able to get some Breeders and a Kit to work from at the same time.Is it possible to get a couple pair of Breeders from him?
Either way you decide it will still take several years to get somewhat established to where you will want to be with your breeding program.David
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motherlodelofts
173 posts
Jul 13, 2005
3:41 PM
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Take his advise, if lost they are lost. It will take a few years at least to figure out what is worth breeding and what isn't.
You will be flying kits of birds in no time,one thing that pigeons can do is make more.
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rollerpigeon1963
35 posts
Jul 13, 2005
3:54 PM
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Shaun,
Talking from experience choose A!! You can't breed what you don't have!
Brian Middaugh
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
67 posts
Jul 13, 2005
4:00 PM
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Shaun, it appears you are getting some real good, sound advice from some guys that have been down the road a few times. There is a massive different between just starting out and having plenty of established birds to work with. There aren't a lot of short cuts with rollers. It really is a matter of breed um, fly um, make some decisions...repeat cycle. I had mentioned it before and I will again. If I were in your shoes, I would (as you did) get the opinion of the breeder. George has been around long enough to know what would be a good decision to make. But he has experience, especially with his own birds. If George "recommends" locking them up and breeding from them, then take his advise. Its free and comes with a veteran qualified guarantee. Same thing if he recommends you fly them out.
No matter which you choose, the results will be nearly the same, with one exception. That exception is having a full kit to fly for a year. Because in all honesty, it will be a full year before you really get to know the birds and develop some kind of instinct as to which ones are the ones you feel you want to bring into the breeding loft. Breeding them is easy. Culling them is even easier. If you wait to fly them out, besides the risks, a year passes by. Sure you might find some good ones, but as some of the veteran flyers will honestly admit, some of the best performers don't necessarily make the best breeders. That is hard, cold fact.
Now flip the script. Breed from them all now and fly out the youngsters. You will possibly end up with not one, but several kits of young birds to fly...and ultimately test the pairs. This is where you want to be anyway.
George has done most of the hard work already. Take advantage of it, breed them and fly out the young. Those young will tell you which birds are the ones you want to focus on. Flying the originals out won't tell you specifically these same things. This probably isn't the answer you were looking for, but it's my .02 worth anyway..lol.
Brian
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highroller
33 posts
Jul 13, 2005
4:01 PM
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Shaun,
Go with option A and pair them up the way George says. He knows his birds and his way will undoubtedly save you more time than flying the 20, pairing them of yourself and working through the results.
Dan
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spinnerpigeon
30 posts
Jul 13, 2005
6:50 PM
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I think that I would take the option A route as well. From what I gather George has been at the game for quite some time. I would take his advise! Just my 2 cents.
Caleb
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Alan Bliven
204 posts
Jul 13, 2005
8:31 PM
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I asked this same question in this very same forum and received a different answer by the "experts" and made a critical mistake by following their advise.
I bought a kit and flew them and then was going to pick my breeders from the kit as I was advised. Well, some flew away, some were killed and some got sick and died when I had canker. Needless to say I have very few left and am now way behind and have to start over. If I would have let my breeder pick some good pairs for me and bred from them and flew out the babies I would have been way ahead of where I now. But the experts told me not to do that because I may not get his best birds but by buying the babies and flying them out I'd have a better chance of getting some of his best birds... so much for that!
Now, I can see I may have more culls by breeding the original birds but at least I'd have something! Now, I have nothing to speak of!
One of the forum members "J_Star" also did like I did and one day lost his entire kit to an overfly and he's set back as well.
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Alan
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Shaun
35 posts
Jul 13, 2005
10:20 PM
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Wow, that's some consensus! I've paid a lot for these 20 birds, as George's reputation doesn't come cheap. He didn't have any breeders to sell, but he will breed a round of youngsters - but not to just anyone; he has to feel that they won't be ruined.
So, although I could get more birds from him should it be necessary, it doesn't look good, does it: "George, I lost that 20 to a flyaway or outbreak of disease, or whatever - can I have another 20 please?
He's reiterated that by the time they come to breed, he'll go through the pedigree of each and every bird and recommend which to put with what. However, he went onto say that the blood is so tightly integrated that I could safely let nature take its course and the outcome would probably me much the same, in term of the quality of the offspring.
So, having read all you guys have had to say - and with Alan reinforcing just what can go wrong - I'm locking the little buggers down!
Thank you so much for your responses.
Cheers.
Shaun
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
72 posts
Jul 13, 2005
10:57 PM
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Alan, I am probably the one you are referring to in your regards and I must say, there is a HUGE difference between George's birds and the birds you bought. You made the right decision, though you had some bad luck along the way. Those birds needed to be air tested because that breeder's breeding practices have kind of changed and the gene pool is getting really close in some of the lines. I would give you that same advice if you got more of them. If you want a few pair of them to breed from, let me know and I'll send you a pair or two in the fall out of ones I proved out.
Brian.
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Alan Bliven
205 posts
Jul 14, 2005
12:15 AM
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Yeah, I guess it also depends on the family.
Thanks Brian for the offer, I'll see where I stand this fall and let you know.
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Alan
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Velo99
40 posts
Jul 14, 2005
5:11 AM
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I have a different take on A. Right now Mr Mason may be testing you. I`m sure he doesn`t just give up a kit and give out advice for the hell of it. I would do exactly what the man says. If you need anything in the future he would be a lot more willing to help you.
I believe there was a thread about trust between mentors and newbies.
mtc/yits
v99
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Shaun
36 posts
Jul 14, 2005
10:03 AM
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I agree wholeheartedly with V99's sentiment; I may be under some sort of scrutiny. I was only able to approach George following an awful lot of correspondence with Graham Dexter. Once the latter knew how seriously I was taking things (and he also knew I was prepared to open my wallet!), so the introduction to George came about.
As for George's advice, I'm sure many of us in the same position would do the same: you wouldn't want to build up a worldwide reputation only for people to take kits from you then ruin them - but continue to maintain the offspring are the birds of the illustrious original breeder.
However, in defence of my option B (fly the 20, then breed), George is losing birds to hawks at the moment, but he also openly acknowledged that for only the second time in 40 years, he recently suffered a flyaway - and I'd say he was clearly shaken by it.
With such losses of his own in mind, when he advised me to lock my 20 away, I think he was thinking of the money I've spent and what a waste it would be if some/all disappeared before breeding could even begin. I feel that this was a big motive for locking the birds down, as well as his later strategy for breeding and flying them.
From the previous responses to this post, I would say that the majority of guys are nodding their heads in agreement to the lock down then breed strategy. I'm happy to go along with that.
By the way - and please don't take this as me being a smug git (that's something of an English insult) with me currently holding 25 George Mason young birds between 7 weeks and 4 months old, bred directly from his stock birds. If anyone would like me to post pics somewhere I could do this. I just recall that I'd read some roller guys were passing off stock as being from Mason, where perhaps they're not at all.
I wouldn't say George's birds look particularly unusual, in that they're the usual variations on reds, with plenty of mid to dark chequers (some almost black). There's also the odd blue in there. There's also much in the way of white flights/tails/heads/beards etc - but none of them are the paler coloured birds and none are grizzles.
Some of the reds are very distinctive; whilst the pattern differs, the colour itself is consistent - as if you can appreciate they came from the same loft. The feather quality - something George is very picky about - is also superb, so soft and... Oh, alright, I'll shut up.
I'm sure I'll be yawning at this sort of stuff, the same as the rest of you in years to come, but meanwhile I'm enjoying everything to do with the birds - and not just the all-important flying aspects.
Shaun
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Velo99
41 posts
Jul 14, 2005
1:47 PM
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Hey Shaun E-mail me some pix !
freqywon@yahoo.com
thanks bro
yits
v99
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
362 posts
Jul 14, 2005
3:14 PM
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Shaun.If you would email me some pics too.David
dwsaas@innernet.net
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fhtfire
167 posts
Jul 14, 2005
3:26 PM
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Shaun,
If George is telling you to lock down and breed from the birds...do it. Let him pick the birds and how to pair them. Then you see what happens. It is not uncommon for a breeder to tell you not to fly a bird and breed from it. I have a Scott Campbell pair that he told me..not to fly and breed them and see what happens. Well, I have a recessive red out of that pair...from my first round that is a totaly rocket! The other rounds are starting to come along just fine. I could have flew the birds and either lost them, they had an accident and crashed....or a hawk take them. I did the same with my young Ruby Roller pair that I got from Tony. They were squeekers...I could have flown them last year....but I just put them in the breeding loft and let them breed this year....and I have a little black hen from that pair...that is just dynamite.
I know that it is better to watch them fly and pick from the air...but sometimes...the best to best...produce crap....it is all a gamble anyway when you are starting out. You are lucky to get birds from such a know fancier...I would take his advise...he knows what he is doing....just like I took the advice of Scott and Tony. In A tight bred family like George....You are bound to get some good offspring if you pair them up. If you follow his directions....you will earn his respect and with respect come rewards! Just my thoughts...
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Mount Airy Lofts
23 posts
Jul 14, 2005
4:57 PM
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Shaun,
So are you telling us Mr. Mason would rather die first then to have a Opal or Andulusion or Milky in his birds. Just joking. Only suckers will by pretty birds with a name like Mr. Mason behind it.
You are correct when you stated that statement. There are birds floating about in the U.S. sporting Mr. Mason's name on these RARE color birds. Most of these are being sold on eggbid.com.
Well, you can only be a sucker for so long.
I'm gonna get chewed up on this one by the genetics guys...
Thor
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Shaun
39 posts
Jul 15, 2005
4:25 AM
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Thor, I wouldn't dare enter the colour/color debate. The only other post I've seen get as heated, is the one about cats!
I've read a number of George's statements on his birds and colour barely gets a mention - but, he often mentions feather quality. If you look at some of the pics I've posted, the very dark and black chequers have a quilted look to them and in the flesh they are lovely. Even that humble chequer-self is a picture.
V99 and David, I have no problem emailing the pics, but there's a few Mb's worth, so they could choke your email connection. I've uploaded them to a specific URL, which I'm putting up a post for, just in case anyone else wants to take a look. But, do let me know if you also want them emailed.
Shaun
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Shaun
40 posts
Jul 15, 2005
4:28 AM
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Paul, thanks for the advice based on your own similar experience. I think there's no question now, I won't be letting them out - unless I'm drunk one evening and think "Oh, why the hell not?".
Shaun
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