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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Showing Rollers
Showing Rollers
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big al
38 posts
Jul 13, 2005
7:10 PM
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Hi guys,
Do any of you show rollers?
What's the criteria? Are the judges looking for the same thing we look for when we handle a performer? Or does that vary from judge to judge?----------
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
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highroller
34 posts
Jul 14, 2005
9:18 AM
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Al,
I take some rollers to a local all breed show each fall, mostly just to hang out with the other roller guys. The judge we had last year said there was a written standard even for performing rollers. Other judges in past years always placed my birds in exact order of their performance so I think they have a pretty good handle on judging performing birds.
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Alan Bliven
206 posts
Jul 14, 2005
10:01 AM
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The last show I went to had no show rollers and all performing rollers. I found it interesting that he said he could tell a bird that has been flying by it's muscles in the back and graded them higher than a non flying bird of great type.
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Alan
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Shaun
37 posts
Jul 14, 2005
10:14 AM
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In England, the show roller is a completely different bird to its flying counterpart. Show birds are generally bigger and have been bred to exaggerate certain traits - bigger, thicker neck, for example. If they can fly more than a few yards, you'd be lucky - and roll? Forget it.
The show roller has to be in superb all-round condition, which in itself discounts the majority of flying birds, as they're more likely to hold the odd dodgy feather. I did think that in the US, the show roller was, in the same way to us, almost a different species to that of the flying roller. Isn't this the case?
Conversely, the West of England Flying Tumbler (which I believe is popular in the US also) remains both a flying and showing breed. Now, that appeals to me more.
Shaun
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Slobberknocker
33 posts
Jul 14, 2005
11:04 AM
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Shaun,
Your are correct in that the Show Roller in the US is a completely different animal than the Flying/Performing type.
As far as the West of Englands, most of them here in the US are bred strictly for the show pen and I would venture to guess that very few of them here will do anything in the air.
Bob
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www.slobberknockerlofts.com
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
74 posts
Jul 14, 2005
12:00 PM
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Shaun, I have been raising Wests for a long time and we have a quite large show based following here in the states. Our national club and internet club boast some 200+ members. There are some very interesting conversations going on right now on our internet club in regards to the different types. In England, Australia and Germany, the West is pretty much the same bird, somewhat resembling those from long ago. Get Bell's or Jeffery Oldham's book and you will see what the old type of flying West looked like. Slightly more stronger looking than a roller, but basically a roller by type none the less. They were until about 70 years ago, the same pigeon. They had a three angled head and a strong flying presence in the show pen. Based on resent arguements and conversations in our club from guys who had straight flyers in the 40s through the 80s, the Wests in other countries physically haven't changed to the degree we have seen here in the states. There is however, an overall body size increase in the birds we have been privledged to see from those other countries, but it is still speculated that they are still fairly true to the original Wests flown in all parts of England at the turn of the century. It is highly doubtful that those showing their Wests in those countries actually fly their show birds, but I would bet they fly some others that are not showable. Some say they do, but based on pictures of them, being so large in body, it is highly doubtful they would fly much at all.
Our Wests here in the states have changed to meet a standard of perfection for the show arena. But that largely encompasses those who choose to participate in shows. There are still some straight flyers around with old blood Wests, but they are becoming fewer as each year passes. Possibly due to the vast growth in popularity of the roller pigeon. The standard of our West (which we do not delineate between fly or show) is actually of a bird that still maintains a flying presence in the show pen. Though many specimens far exceed this, the standard is set.
We have no specification as to whether they were flown or not. Most show guys do not fly their Wests. Several breeds were used during from the late 60s through the 80s to add characteristics. Some of those included Long Face Muff Tumblers, Domestic Flights and Saxon Swallows, with a few sprinklings of Show Tipplers and Show Rollers by a couple of guys. This as a whole changed much of the genetic make up of the West as compared to those abroad which most likely retain quite a bit of originality. But because of the size of some of those birds across the big pond, there is speculation in that regard.
I and others here agree that with proper training, even current US Wests can still fly and perform. I give some of my mismarked baldheads to a friend who flys them and within a few months they are souring in the clouds for hours, just like the Wests of old. According to him most of them start tumbling after six months of age. So it is still in them, it's just that most West breeders here are show orientated and flying pigeons is not something they either choose to do or have the ability to do.
I made a kit of them once using my cull marked black balds. It was pretty to see for a while, just as it was when I was a kid. But once you have been turned onto concert performance by a kit of spinning rollers, that high flying and occasional tumbling stuff seems rather stale in comparison.
If you want to see what some of our current American Wests look like, check out my photo account at
pbase.com/bmc1
Click on the thumbnail of the pigeon pictures, then you can click on any picture on that page to enlarge.
Brian.
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Shaun
38 posts
Jul 14, 2005
2:14 PM
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Brian, those photos are nothing short of awesome - it's like looking at a very, very pretty woman. She may not have much going on upstairs and she certainly won't be doing the cooking and ironing - but that's because she has to put on her makeup, paint her nails and dress in that lovely little number which simply makes her look adorable.
We forgive her lack of other talents because when she's done - well, oh my God!
I could happily stand those pigeons on the top of - well, anything really, and gawp at them all day long. I mean, that modena bronze bald, that blue bar grizzle - to name just two - will they marry me? Pigeon totty, or what?
Yes, I know this is not what rollers are about, but that was really good for the soul.
Many thanks.
Shaun
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
75 posts
Jul 14, 2005
10:59 PM
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Glad you liked them Shaun. For the record, that modena bronze bald does not exist in our breed. Some of us were pondering future color introductions, and being that modena bronze is tough to work with, I created this in photoshop so that my west comrades could visualize what one would look like.
Brian.
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Alan Bliven
207 posts
Jul 15, 2005
11:48 AM
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Brian,
Nice pics!
What's this one called GERONIMO-RED? Seems to be a very nice red.
I have this Modena bronze in my Catalonian Tumblers or what they call TS1. I'm not sure if it's the same but I wonder if it couldn't be transferred over to the Wests? They are larger and stronger than most Cats and a very beautiful bronze!
I also have what is called Brown Lace. It's a toy stencil, which expresses itself as bronze in the heterozygous state. Or so I've been told.
But of course these Cats have no muffs, so that could be a problem.
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Alan
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Richard A.
51 posts
Jul 15, 2005
12:24 PM
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BIG AL!!!
When Paul Platz was stiil with us, I was at his house one day in Poway, Ca. and I told him:Hey Paul, One of your Rollers tried to fly up to a perch in your loft and it couldn't make it. He told me: Richard, show rollers don't have to be able to fly, only to be able to stand in a show cage. Some had Modenas crossed into them in order to increase the size of the neck.
Judges that Judge Flying rollers are not consistant. Some only have had one family of Rollers and dont know how to judge Rollers as a whole, while some others that have been exposed to various families of Rollers, and are knowledgeable to begin with, can be excellant judges.
The bottom line is: You do know the difference. Be content with flying those good ones that you are breeding and if you happen to show in a Major show, don't be surprised if your birds don't even place. They will shine as they are supposed to, in the air, as they already do!!
Real good judges are hard to find.
Richard
Last Edited by Richard A. on Jul 15, 2005 12:35 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
76 posts
Jul 15, 2005
12:57 PM
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Thanks Alan, that red is a young cock I raised this year and has already been champion of a show last month. I anticipate some more very high placings from him this fall and at the National. He is the best red bald I have ever raised and until him, his father was the best red bald I have ever raised. And guess what, the same red balds I give my friend to fly are the same as this guy. He has a yellow brother coming up behind him that might be just as good.
On the modena bronze, being that it is a member of the TS family, it becomes quite hard to work with based on what a few members have tried. We do have one very qualified genetics guru in our ranks that is working on converting over the entire modena gazzi marking, but because of thing like the bronze, it has been a real battle. Another one of our guys is using the ice from the Cats and putting them into Wests.
Brian.
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Alan Bliven
208 posts
Jul 15, 2005
3:14 PM
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Ice would be cool ;)
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Alan
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