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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Tony-what's the difference
Tony-what's the difference
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Double D
1 post
Jul 18, 2005
7:52 PM
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Apparently the George Mason birds are well known for their excellent quality. I'm a novice and don't recognize the name but it's obvious I should probably know who George Mason is. I've noted, however, that their body type seems to be considerably different from your Ruby Roller family. Can you maybe explain the pros and cons or the differences between the George Mason birds and your strain as it pertains to ability or whatever the benefits of the differences in body type might be. Thanks in advance!
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
330 posts
Jul 18, 2005
9:39 PM
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Hello Double D,
I can only tell you details about my family of birds, but based on what I have heard from reputable breeders and others with experience with them, I have complete confidence that George Mason birds are of top quality and have proven themselves to be everything anyone might want or need in a quality Birmingham Roller.
As for my family of Ruby Rollers, my focus is to either maintain and/or improve on what I call the “5 Primary Traits”. They are in this order:
1: Roll
2: Velocity
3: Depth
4: Control
5: Type
I get into more detail on http://www.rubyrollers.com/page/page/1537948.htm or you can order our printed version titled: How To Breed Better Rollers” here on this site: http://www.roller-pigeon.com/catalog/item/861199/1483732.htm
As for “body type”, I like a smaller well balanced, compact bird. It needs to have the proper balance, i.e. not too heavy in the front and not too long in the back. I like the feathering to be tight and not loose. I like a keel not too long in the cock birds that comes up to the vent bones and not past them. I like strong primary and secondary flights that are wide enough to give proper resistance when the bird is coming out of the roll so that is clean and snappy.
My opinion is that a well balanced Ruby Roller has the right physical traits needed for proper performance and when it properly demonstrates the 5 Primary Traits in the order I listed, it will tend to have all the ingredients required to put on a good show that one can be proud of and get excited about.
Others may take a different approach than this, but this is how I go about getting my birds to the ideal I have in my mind.
Can you or anyone else share what you see as the differences between these two families and how that might or might not influence performance?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Shaun
48 posts
Jul 19, 2005
10:44 AM
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Perhaps I can step in here as someone who has 25 of George Mason's youngsters, but who would have liked some of Tony's Ruby Rollers, had there been an easy way of importing them to England. I can tell you that Tony's birds to us on the other side of the Atlantic, look more like show rollers.
This isn't the criticism it might appear to be. Certainly in England, show rollers have been developed to make various features of the birds more pronounced, and as a result, nowadays, they barely fly.
When I first saw Tony's birds on his website, I was warned to avoid them as they were show rollers. However, I've since read so much genuine enthusiasm for them in the US, that clearly they're great birds. As for me, I really like their look. It seems that American guys have managed to give birds a show look, yet still have them perform.
In England, I don't think you'll see much difference between George Mason birds and those from any other serious flyer, who George competes with year after year - to me the ones I've seen all look much the same.
I think what this proves is that the performance roller can take on a wide variety of form, yet still live up to the exacting demands of those whose only concern is the birds' performance.
Shaun
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Double D
2 posts
Jul 19, 2005
9:34 PM
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Shaun, I've read many of your posts and never realized you live in England. George Mason must be from your part of the world then? Maybe others who are familiar with both could speak to this point but Tony's birds, to me, look more athletic, stand taller, more length in the neck. Mason's birds seem like a little ball of feathers with a head and a tail, (no offense intended, just making an observation). They also seem a tad smaller overall to me but then again, I'm comparing pictures.
Shaun, I'm also curious about WHO told you to stay away from Ruby Rollers. Although you indicated that you'd learned they were of good quality, your original statement had to come from somewhere.
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Shaun
50 posts
Jul 19, 2005
11:39 PM
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Double D, the points you make about the different look of Ruby Rollers is exactly why they look like show birds to English fanciers. This is because when someone over here chooses to show them and not fly them, he will breed to strengthen the charactaristics of the roller - and will end up with a much bigger bird, with a pronounced neck. This greater size is usually why they can barely fly.
It was an English fancier who took one look at Ruby Rollers on the website and concluded without going any further that they were show rollers. I then read many posts in favour of Tony's birds and until I was finally able to get some quality English birds, which wasn't at all easy, I hads been weighing up whether it might have been worthwhile importing some Ruby Rollers.
I agree that my Mason birds look skinny in comparison, but the line has been around for decades with successes all over the world in competition. George has exported to South Africa and that country is doing very well in international roller competitions.
In the same way I have Mason birds on my doorstep (well, a couple of hundred miles away), you have Ruby Rollers on yours. And, given that you prefer their look and know they fly well, it's a no-brainer.
Of course, you should look at other well known fanciers' birds as well, if possible. However, from the pictures I've seen, they don't look much different to my Masons. If you take a look at Siddiquir's pictures above, to me they don't look anything like Ruby Rollers and more like mine.
The main reason for my posting the pics of the George Masons, is that I read that guys in the US (and possibly elsewhere) are producing weird and wonderful coloured birds, claiming them to be Masons. However, George's birds conform to a few basic colours, with the actual pattern being the defining factor. He's found the knack of not playing around with colour, but with plenty of white heads, wings, tails, etc, the birds are considered very pretty - well, I think so anyhow.
Shaun
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Riaan
7 posts
Jul 19, 2005
11:51 PM
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Hi Shawn
I would like to send you some interesting pics...
Where can I send them to, an e-mail perhaps!
Thanks
Your friend in the sport
Riaan
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Shaun
51 posts
Jul 20, 2005
4:47 AM
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Riaan, you can get me at: shaun@sharktraining.co.uk
Shaun
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motherlodelofts
179 posts
Jul 20, 2005
4:53 PM
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Shaun , I have handled a couple of Tonys birds from a guy that has a pair up north of me, the hen was a "sweet" typy little hen. As long as she had the moter it was what you look for in a top notch bird.
The more recent English imports (Harris) are quite a bit larger than what I am used to. but they were ball bearing smooth in the roll.
You are right though that there are many birds being passed as this family or that family that do not properly represent the family.
Hey can you Email me those pics ??
motherlodelofts@netzero.com
PS Dave Mosley has a pair in the W/C auction. if I was you I would be looking to snag them up !!!!!!!!!!!
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Shaun
52 posts
Jul 21, 2005
3:24 AM
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Scott, I can email you the George Mason pics if you like. However, you can get straight to them via this URL: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/shaun.daley
At the time of the photos, the birds were all between 6 and 9 weeks old, so they probably still have some growing to do.
Having said that, some of George's birds are now a good few months old and don't seem any bigger, so I would say that Mason birds are not large at all.
As for Dave's birds, Graham Dexter keeps in touch with all the main roller guys and says if he comes across any birds which he knows are good - preferably ones he's actually seen in the air - he'll get in touch with the details.
Actually, when I first contacted Graham a few months back, he told me to hang fire on acquiring any more birds until he went to our national roller club annual conference, which ends with an auction. However, he warned me that quality can vary a lot. As it turned out, when he went, there was nothing he felt would give me a decent start as breeding stock. This is why I've gone down the George Mason route, with a kit of his youngsters to breed from. I had heard on the grapevine that George was getting rid of some of his breeders, but when I rang him, he didn't have any for sale.
Shaun
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Velo99
47 posts
Jul 21, 2005
4:43 AM
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While the post has turned to a body type thread, let me ask this question. I had big chick little chick in the nest both survived .... will the smaller chick pass on her size?
She is tiny.Started flying yesterday did a little flip,and seems to like flying. Just wondered.
yits
v99
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motherlodelofts
185 posts
Jul 21, 2005
6:56 AM
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Shaun, pick up that pair from Dave !!!!!! true you don't want to pulling in birds from here and there, but pick up that pair !!!!
Also keep in mind that what you are starting with may not be what you settle on. Many time's what is started with is only a stepping stone.
PS I can't find that page
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jul 21, 2005 7:11 AM
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Shaun
53 posts
Jul 21, 2005
9:45 AM
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Scott, copy and paste this: there's no www. if you get what I mean.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/shaun.daley
As for Dave's birds, I'm intrigued. I know you know Dave, and I've read of him via the usual English stuff. However, I'm always wary of anyone selling anything, so I take the view that if a guy's got top breeding stock, why sell them?
In my ideal world, the guy would say: "Guys, I'm skint (broke). I need to raise some cash. Now, you fellas know these birds; some of you have seen them fly in earlier days before I started breeding from them, whilst some of you others have had the benefit of their offspring. But, today I have to sell the family heirloom, as it were, so what am I bid?"
Now, that I could feel comfortable with.
So, Scott, with your vast experience - and I've gathered from your posts, you're wary of many things which others tend to overly enthuse about - would you dive in and buy birds sight unseen, simply because of the breeder? If you would - and given you can't see them fly - I'm sure you'd want to know as much about the birds as possible.
But, I do see your point about future direction: George Mason's birds might have done wonderfully well over the years but, maybe, only George knows how to handle them properly!
I'm keeping a very open mind as to my breeding stock for the future, so, a decent pair of breeders from someone else, is an attractive proposition. But, back to all of those questions about the birds... and, I don't even know of the auction.
Somewhat puzzled.
Shaun
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
372 posts
Jul 21, 2005
1:15 PM
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Shaun.I don,t think anyone would put up anything on the W/C or the NBRC Auctions that wern't any good.I feel like that you have a chamce to pick up some quality rollers that you may never have a chance except for a benifit auction.My opinion. David
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motherlodelofts
186 posts
Jul 21, 2005
4:02 PM
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Shaun Dave doesn't raise and sell birds, the birds are donated for the W/C , there is nothing that goes to the guys that are donating.
I suggested them to you because I know what kind of roller man Dave is.
Shaun I have an established family that serves me well, if I could pick that pair up I would !!!
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jul 21, 2005 6:19 PM
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Shaun
54 posts
Jul 22, 2005
11:21 AM
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Scott and David, this auction thing is interesting. As this current post is going off at a tangent, I'm going to post a new one to deal specifically with the auction. I'd value your opinions.
Shaun
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soldiersloft
1 post
Aug 01, 2005
7:34 AM
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This message is for Tony Chavarria,
I was taking a look at the message board and noticed that you mentioned moving to Missouri. What city are you in?
I'm in the Rolla area of Missouri. I couldn't find your email addrees posted anywhere. We'll have to get together so you can check out my Roller set up and talk stories.
Dan Galarza
Soldiersloft
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
337 posts
Aug 05, 2005
10:02 AM
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Hello Dan, I live in Seymour, MO which is in Webster County. I believe I am 2 or 3 hours south of you. I think it would be great to get together.
Here is my email: Support@Roller-Pigeon.Com
Look forward to hearing from you.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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