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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
WORLD CUP CHAMPION
WORLD CUP CHAMPION
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big al
54 posts
Jul 20, 2005
1:00 AM
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Congrats to Mr.JBS!!
Well done!!
I've heard of him and his birds. (Great things)
Anyone know what he scored and where he's from?
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Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
Last Edited by big al on Jul 20, 2005 1:02 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
367 posts
Jul 20, 2005
3:25 AM
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His score was 1391.04 and he lives in North Carolina.David
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BR Rollers
3 posts
Jul 20, 2005
6:22 AM
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I met Joebob last Sat at a pigeon event. What a heck of a nice guy! Congrats on your winning the cup neighbor!
The Rooster man.
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Slobberknocker
36 posts
Jul 20, 2005
7:06 AM
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What family of birds did Joe win with?
Bob
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www.slobberknockerlofts.com
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Ballrollers
44 posts
Jul 20, 2005
9:07 AM
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Bob, Joe Bob's main family of birds consists of an amalgum of best performers from Turner/Simpson (which he calls South Carolina Birds), Baker, Jaconettes from Danny Horner and Clay Hoyle birds. He also brought in some Starley birds last fall but I don't know if he was able to breed and develope any in time for the World Cup. He has lots of reduced, Indigo, and Andalusians. If it performs, he doesn't care what color it is! I have calls and e-mails to him to see exactly what birds he flew. I saw his A & B kits in the Fall Fly and in March. Recall that it was his comment about wing-switching and judging inconsistencies last fall that initiated my posing the question and discussion on the internet and my article in the NBRC journal. YITS Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Jul 20, 2005 9:09 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
368 posts
Jul 20, 2005
12:26 PM
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Cliff.Do you recall seeing any Qualmond's that JoeBob was flying? David
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motherlodelofts
182 posts
Jul 20, 2005
6:48 PM
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Cliff what is inconsistant about a judge not judging wing switchers ???
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Ballrollers
45 posts
Jul 21, 2005
9:14 AM
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David, I don't recall seeing any Qualmonds at Joe Bob's. I'll check more closely next time I go down. Mostly I try to pick his brain and see how the kits perform. He works the feed a lot and has shot himself in the foot many times in the past trying to peak them. We had a freak cold front move through the Carolinas the night before he flew and the morning was cool and crisp (in the 60s) after a week at 90+ degrees. Clay kept telling him to leave the feed alone and let his birds fly! So he had his birds ready, the weather dealt him a nice hand to play, and it all paid off.
YITS
Cliff
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Ballrollers
46 posts
Jul 21, 2005
9:33 AM
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Scott,
There is absolutley nothing inconsistent about a judge not scoring wing-switching, unless it is done inconsistently!! I was actually describing wing-switching and judging inconsistencies as two separate but related topics, the judging issue evolving into the need for a national standard for performance. The whole thing got started at the NBRC Fall Fly last year, when Joe Bob's kit, that was really smokin' (with a lot of young birds-04-last fall) only earned 80 points or so. The judge said the quality wasn't there in the young birds yet, that many birds exited the roll in a different direction than the kit due to wing-switching. Moving on to another loft, the kit seemed of poorer quality, flew higher and spent a lot of time behind the trees, yet scored more points, I think 98 or so. I asked Joe Bob how this could be, and said that in my opinion, his kit looked better. We then got into a discussion of wing-switching vs. other reasons birds that exited a roll different from the kit's direction ought to be scored. I posed the question on Earl's list that kicked off a long debate on the issue with many differing opinions. The last issue of the Roller Journal has a couple of good articles about this issue also, and I have sent in a response article for next month's issue. Know what I mean,now? Fly on, Cliff
PS You goin' to the meeting in Denver?
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Jul 21, 2005 10:28 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
371 posts
Jul 21, 2005
12:23 PM
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Cliff.Those Carolina rollers are sure struttin their stuff this year.Didn,t Alex Hamilton break the all time high score in the regionals this year? David
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Ballrollers
47 posts
Jul 21, 2005
12:41 PM
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You betcha! It's about time they get their just due. Now they have won an NBRC Fall Fly and a World Cup! Alex is in Texas, though,Dave. Don't tell me he's flying Carolina birds, too!! I just missed the NBRC deadline for the next issue with my article, "The Carolina Connection". It won't get in until the Sept-Oct issue. It feels pretty good having birds from both of their lofts. Now if they'll just produce!!! Later, Cliff
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motherlodelofts
187 posts
Jul 21, 2005
4:08 PM
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Cliff will some judges show what appears to be inconsistancy ? yes
Should birds that are wingswitching be scored ? hell no
Will many of "my" young birds show bouts of wingswitching ? yes , that is whay I won't move them into the A team until they get through this period, not all do !
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
373 posts
Jul 21, 2005
6:17 PM
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Cliff.Yes.Alex is flying the Carolina rollers.
Scott.I am not grasping at straws.I choose this family of rollers before Jay Yandle won the 11 bird fly or Alex Hamilton broke the most point record or JoeBob winning the World Cup.
Look back over the past couple of years about the post you and others made that they had to prove it.
I think they have proved it.I think they deserve the respect and credit that is long overdue them.
Don,t worry about raining on our parade.David
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motherlodelofts
190 posts
Jul 21, 2005
9:24 PM
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Dave where does "several " families and crossing together fit in ? The only place that the "due" is deserved is with the fliers that put in the hard work.
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jul 21, 2005 9:33 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
374 posts
Jul 22, 2005
2:06 AM
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You are right Scott.Competition has nothing to do with the rollers.It all boils down to who worked the hardest and was the best handler.David
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Ballrollers
49 posts
Jul 25, 2005
9:15 AM
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Hey Guys, I talked to Joe Bob this weekend. He told me that he lost 12 birds from his A kit due to the sun setting on a late training fly a week before his finals fly. He was going to drop out but was talked into staying with it. He had been flyiing about 50 birds altogether so he picked his best 12 from the B kit. Since they had been flying together they kitted and performed well. On the day of the fly, he said they came out hotter than he had ever seen them. He had 44 breaks in the 20 minutes. 4 birds were performing like true champions-deep, fast, twice a minute and right back to the kit. He scored 1.6 for depth and 1.4 for quality. The kit was composed of birds that were 7/8 South Carolina birds (Turner, Green, Simpson) and 1/8 Roger Baker (Blue Lace); So the winning kit is composed of Reduced, Andalusians, Indigo, Dilute, and standard colors from this family. Sounds like material for another article!! In the sport, Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Jul 25, 2005 10:50 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
378 posts
Jul 25, 2005
1:25 PM
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Scott.I don,t understand where you are coming from.Are you trying to discredit what JoeBob did by saying it was just a fluke on that day? You havn,t said anything positive about his win yet. David
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
379 posts
Jul 25, 2005
3:26 PM
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Scott.Since you know JoeBob so well what does he have to say about the kit that won? I already know so I want to hear your version of what he said.
So what you are now saying that Reduced,Andalusian.Indigo and Dilute are from the Lloyd Thompson family?
Funny how now that they were in the kit that won the W/C thay are not color birds but when I am breeding the same thing they are Crossbred Mongrels.JoeBob can breed them and not be a color breeder?
Yes most of the same blood that is in JoeBobs rollers are the same as what I am breeding.
I am not going to get into a big debate over this but neither will I tolerate being put down for what I breed anymore.The rollers have done all the talking thats needed.David
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
380 posts
Jul 25, 2005
3:32 PM
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Scott.What happened to your post about raining on our parade? David
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motherlodelofts
202 posts
Jul 25, 2005
5:15 PM
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What happened to that post Dave ? the same thing that happened to my last two, I didn't post them for a debate.
Nor was there anything in them saying anything about a fluke, in fact just the opposite as I have a lot of respect for JoeBob and as I mentioned he has stayed in my home.
It is funny how someone can use "their" skill by useing various families to make and mould a W/C winning kit and how others want to twist things around to suit their own personal agenda.
I'm happy that you feel that someone elses developement of "thier" family did the talking for "your" birds.
Good luck !!!!
PS Cliff the pictures that I have seen showed far more normal colors than anything else. When color is not an objective it tends to head that way it seems.
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jul 25, 2005 5:45 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
381 posts
Jul 25, 2005
6:10 PM
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Scott.If you are afraid certain people will see what you actually posted then don,t post at all.That is a cowards way out.I won,t even recognize any of your post if when proven wrong you will delete your post so it all looks one sided.I had more respect for you when you stood behind what you had to say.David
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birdman
32 posts
Jul 25, 2005
7:14 PM
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Hmm.... so called 'mongrels' have beaten the best of the hardcore purists. And entire paragraphs are disappearing from this thread.
Must be words being eaten.....!
Just kidding!!
Congratulations to JoeBob and his birds.
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motherlodelofts
204 posts
Jul 25, 2005
9:30 PM
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Dave, proven wrong ?? afraid of others reading my posts ???? You lost me here Dave.
They were deleted because you read something into them that wasn't there , and to be honest it isn't worth bumping heads over as that was not the intent of my posts. I suggest that you get in tight with someone like JoeBob and try to grasp an understanding of the birds.
When you quit asking or wondering about color than you might start making some headway.
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jul 25, 2005 9:38 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
94 posts
Jul 25, 2005
9:37 PM
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I knew this was coming..lol.
Here is a quote from JoeBob from one of our roller list when asked about his family and what he was flying.
"I have crossed the SC birds on Rick Mee, Clay Hoyle/Danny Horner Jacs and the TVB/Easley/Starleys. So far they cross well with the Jacs and the TVB/E/S birds. When crossed to the Mee stuff it is a hit and miss deal-still get some good ones though. The real good ones come when you take the 1/2 and 1/2s back to both of the two families and start getting 3/4,7/8ths and 15/16ths of each family. Clay Hoyle has worked the Jacs, SC and Higgins lines. Jay Yandle has SC and Henry Cook's stuff. The bottomline though is you don't need to cross just to be crossing. chasing "grass is greener on the other side" Your decision to cross should be that something is lacking in each family and the other family has that ingredient that is missing, whether it be control, kitting, speed, depth, hybrid vigor/strength of fly/ mental character."
If folks want to delve into the inner workings of what became a WC winning kit, there are some reoccuring variables in Joe's qoutes (too many to post here). What seems to be of utmost importance to Joe is that he is a true stickler for perfection. He knows what he wants. He knows what he likes. He is about performance only. And he is knowledgeable enough and dedicated enough to pursue his convictions to the joyful end. That end being proving to the world that not only is he a very savy trainer of competition rollers with an extremely keen eye for putting a good kit together, but he is also dedicated to a set breeding program that some folks believe to be nothing more than a gamble. Very few roller men can script a breeding program filled with crossing to different families and arrive at a point where the kit boxes are filled with birds that can perform to a high standard he has set for his birds. Even fewer roller flyers have a B team of quality rollers they can reach into for subs and still win.
There are some things about Joe's approach that I find very satisfying. First is that he is color blind when it comes to the birds. He mentioned several birds of SC color, including a reduced hen, that are extremely great rollers and it is boldy apparent that is the larger gene pool he focuses on, while using the crosses to other families to try and correct/improve certain traits. While some will forever cringe at the mere notion that birds of color or out of a colored background make up a large percentage of his stock, it becomes even more impressive that he has the balls to buck the commonly preached system that you should only breed within a specific family while making a family based solely off of those birds. Though to some who do not possess Joe's abilities, to cultivate a breeding program in this manner would be a hard battle to overcome. His methods are not something that just anyone can do. A person must know rollers well and be willing to test things out. He must also possess a stern character that deflects scrutiny.
To summarize my own personal feelings I am quite pleased to see that a kit that toppled the world was comprised of not only some birds of unique color, but were surrounded with normal colors out of those backgrounds as well as being crosses to other proven families. Basically what it boils down to is that a very good roller man put up a kit of crosses out of some very good familes, proving that when it comes to rollers, the general consensus is always not as concrete as it may seem.
I am reminded of something Nicholas Cage said in the movie National Treasure. One of is lines was "Thomas Edison tried 2,000 times to invent the incandescent light bulb. When asked if he regretted all those failures, he said No, I discovered 2,000 ways how not to make a light bulb."
Dedication to something not understood becomes even more sweet when victory is achieved.
That's my .02
Brian.
Last Edited by MCCORMICKLOFTS on Jul 26, 2005 1:54 PM
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motherlodelofts
205 posts
Jul 25, 2005
10:06 PM
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Brian you are right , that blind eye to everything and hone in on the mechanics of performance is what set him apart and put him on top this year.
"All" that he is looking for is the mechanics of what works performance wise for what he was doing, it will be interesting to see where "his" family is 10 years from now and how close it hones in blood wise , but it is obvious that he is going back to "each" family with the outcrosses and creating lines within the family. He also made mention of a "pure" line of the Starley's if I rember right.
One thing that I know is that he knows a good bird and obviously knows how to utilize them in the breeding loft.
I think also that it is worth mention that he started with "key" birds performance wise, just "any" bird out of particular families won't work, that holds true with any family.
I've seen some pedigree breed this family and it went to crap in a hand basket quick.
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jul 25, 2005 10:33 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
382 posts
Jul 26, 2005
2:20 AM
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Brian. You said;Dedication to something not understood becomes even more sweet when victory is achieved.
That one sentence says exactly how I feel.It could have been anyone in the world that won with this type of rollers and I would have been just as happy.Just because its the same path I choose to take with my rollers years ago even tho it is Taboo to many.David
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Ballrollers
50 posts
Jul 26, 2005
8:50 AM
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Brian, Scott, David and others, I thought that was an outstanding post, Brian. Joe Bob's knowledge and experience with breeding performance, the emphasis he (and any breeder) puts on performance, the level of committment in observing the performance of the birds raised from various pairings, and the patience to fly them out and see what is working and what is not, are all key factors in his sucess. This has not been an overnight rise to fame. Joe Bob has placed 7th, 10th, 15th and 19th in previous years in the World Cup. He has traveled the nation and internationally observing, judging and learning about the roll. And when he saw performance in birds, he was not impressed by those that had not seen the birds perform, yet criticised based on some notion of pedigree-first or mongrel-breeding. As has already been said, he pays little attention to color. He has flown in the face of conventional thought in the roller hobby, being willing to outcross on an as-needed basis and working with birds with color modifiers, and has made it work. Scott, you mentioned that you saw more standard colors than anything in the pictures. The point is that the dominant family serving as the core of his birds, is a family (James Turner) that has been damned and criticised by some as being incapable of quality performance due to some incorrect assessment that breeding qualilty performance in this family was not possible and would cause deterioration of the breed. What utter nonsense! Joe Bob was able to work with it and win with it, just have others have, with an eye on performance first. I posted awhile back on the issue if a black self or a blue check was raised off of an Indigo and an Andalusian, was it considered a color bird by those of you who would like to judge and criticise color? After all it carries the same blood. It didn't get much of a response or a rise from anyone at the time, but now comes to the forefront of the conversation. And that is that this family of birds is solid, regardless of color! It contains rollers that carry and show various color modifiers. More than that, it carries significant genes for performance and is producing record-setting and National and World Class wins in competitions, based on actual experience. And yet we were hearing unfair criticism, name-calling and disrepecting of the men who developed them and who breed them today, based strictly on ignorance and prejudice. My hat is off to those who can learn from this experience and now admit that their opinions were based on nonsense; on some etherial notion of what is best for the breed, and not what is actually flying and performing in the air. The true character of those roller men will be demonstrated in their abilities to step up now and admit to former narrow point of view and move forward in uniting the hobby and its many wonderful families of rollers. The damnation of families of rollers and of the men who raise them, based strictly on heresay and unfounded theories and philosophies, without seeing them perform needs to cease, immediately. I know, I'm such a dreamer!!! YITS, Cliff
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motherlodelofts
206 posts
Jul 26, 2005
8:57 AM
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Here is a little more
" over the past 3 years I also introduced some of Tom Vandenbossch that are Starly/Easly based (6 yearlings (1/2 SC 1/2 TVB) I flew this year in the finals,Last Winter Jay Starly let me breed from 4 pair and I raised 12, goal withthem is to fly four families against each other and see which I like better , one straight mine SC "based" , Starleys but mainly (3/4 - 7/8) SC based, one crossed with Starley but mainly Starley based,then one kept pure Starley, should keep me busy the next 5 years "
Kinda like baking a cake here and trying to add the right ingrediants (but no cook book LOL ) , no doubt some food for thought here.
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
383 posts
Jul 26, 2005
11:03 AM
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Here's some more;
I will always have one to two R&D projects(crossing of families/lines) going on the side to try and produce a pigeon that has all the "best of each family"-that too tends to be a slow process-but that's why we do it-time is not a factor-this is an obsession/passion for many of us and not a backyard hobby/sport.
JoeBob
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
384 posts
Jul 26, 2005
11:05 AM
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And still more;
I personally don't care who's family or what line it comes from other than historical purposes-if it is what turns my crank and what I want 20 of on competition day- I will breed it to try and raise 20 of em even if I found it flying out of a barn in a pasture in the wild, raised by a WV hillbilly, or a mongrel. I want to raise and fly the closest I can get/produce to the ultimate ideal in Q, D and workrate.
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Ballrollers
51 posts
Jul 26, 2005
12:19 PM
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Clay Hoyle has had excellent success using the same philosophy; several crosses trying to fine-tune the roll genes. So the old line-breeding & inbreeding in one family "method" isn't the only way to bake that cake, Scott!
As has been posted before, experience, knowledge, and observation of results over a long period of time is the key. Cliff
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motherlodelofts
207 posts
Jul 26, 2005
12:21 PM
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Cliff what did the color crosses bring to the table ? asoulutly nothing but crossbreds that needed to be buried within the real deal, I still hold my opinion that these color crosses are an atrocity against the breed!!!!!!
Cliff go and bring birds in from these guys that "color" breed these birds and see how far it takes you. Which side do you think the color breeders are closer to , the real deal or the crosses ?
On the same hand bring in birds that have been pedigree breed and see how far it takes you.
Cliff it amazes me how someone uses their skill and makes something and yet you guys want to give the credit to someone else. The fact is 60 out of a 100 were killing themselfs (hardly something to hang your hat one)and this is the family that you want to give "all" the credit to. JoeBob went outside the family and started bringing stability into them and in turn made "his" family by bringing it all together. Is color buried in them ? yes,in some at least, in all of them ? I'm not sure as he aquired the original birds in the 80s , back then according to an old artical that I read Turner was sill playing with color on the side.
Bottom line is these crosses are just getting buried further and further back expecially with the crossing of other other families.
Like I said earlier Cliff,start breeding these color birds that these guys have honed around and see if you end up in JoeBobs shoes,also there is something for everyone to learn from here.
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jul 26, 2005 12:39 PM
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motherlodelofts
208 posts
Jul 26, 2005
12:35 PM
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" I am not a big inbreeder, and mainly breed 1/2 bro 1/2 sister ,Uncles/ Neices and cousins and such "
That is called linebreeding Cliff.
Cliff at some point you have to work on tighting it up around the key birds other wise you are breeding away from the key birds.
Cliff my prediction is that the family ends up wrapped around the Starley and his SC family , why did he stick with the SC birds that wouldn't hold up ? due to the roll qaulity that he saw is why, the Starleys are known for stability and qaulity (which is why he brought them in I'm assuming), Interesting stuff to think about
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
385 posts
Jul 26, 2005
12:41 PM
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Cliff. You said;
So the old line-breeding & inbreeding in one family "method" isn't the only way to bake that cake
As has been posted before, experience, knowledge, and observation of results over a long period of time is the key.
This is what makes JoeBobs W/C win an Historic win.He has opened up another whole new chapter in the breeding of the Birmingham Roller.Thanks to these Carolina men and their hard work and dedication we all can enjoy another side of the Roller. David
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Phantom1
1 post
Jul 26, 2005
12:58 PM
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Glad to see that SO much hasn't changed guys...
As mentioned earlier - let's propose that we all take these color-bred mongrels and hone in on all their mongrelized assets. I wonder if we'd be in JoeBob's shoes.
Question though, as presented to me by a very close friend and flyer. If what you have (i.e. a family) that offers you all the qualities and/or colors - whatever trait you chose to feed and look at - why would you need anything else? Ponderous isn't it?
Let's turn this around just for the sake of clean and honest debate. Now, why would someone of JoeBob's experience and stature chose to continue feeding and flying these mongrelized birds if they didn't have anything to offer. Apparently they do, as his recent track record will prove. Talks about him having to outcross to ensure the stability in his family may be true. But for an experienced flyer, why bother? I mean if you're after the World Cup, why not just get the birds that are stable and be done with the mongrelized pigeons that may or may not be attractive to one's own prefrences?
Just a thought...
Eric
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Slobberknocker
40 posts
Jul 26, 2005
1:16 PM
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Scott,
I was going to stay away from this, but I just have to note one thing. This thread was started as being "congratulations to Joe Bob for his win". You couldn't even say "good job" here.
I would like to know first, if Joe Bob lost his A team the week before and pulled birds from his B team for fly day, why did he even pull these colored birds? It seems he had many to choose from according to Cliff's post. If only the standard colors are good, why would he take the chance on such an important day with the colored birds unless they had the quality he wanted?
Also, Scott (because I honestly don't know), how did you do in the WC? I am not trying to start something, I just want to know.
Bob
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www.slobberknockerlofts.com
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motherlodelofts
209 posts
Jul 26, 2005
2:59 PM
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Bob JoeBob allready got my congradulations along with a "great Job" , and on top of it I have done nothing but praise him here on the job that he has done with the birds and I have allways had respect for him, of which I have even spoken to you and others about prior to this win, otherwise I wouldn't have posted anything. As for the 12 that he pulled, if you like I will e-mail a pic of the team.
As for me in the W/C , I bombed "big time" in the regionals, jump into the game and you will get a taste of it LOL
As for these posts , nothing but learning oppertunitys all the way around.
Now I start discussing the mechanics and the red flags and sirens start sounding with the color breeders, same old trap.
The fact is this guy is not a color breeder and has worked hard on building this family. The least that you guys can do is give the credit to where it is deserved.
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jul 26, 2005 3:26 PM
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Ballrollers
52 posts
Jul 26, 2005
3:29 PM
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Heh,Heh,Heh,Heh,Heh. You pedigree guys really crack me up with your grasping at straws and your persistence in denial. Oh well, you're entitled to an opinion like anyone. But it really looks rediculous on you to cop this attitude. I want to reiterate from Joe Bob's mouth. Six of the birds were half South Carolina birds, half Starleys. Fourteen of the birds were 7/8 South Carolina birds, 1/8 Roger Baker Blue Lace that he brought in for quality (still a color bird in your mind). How you can persist in a point of view that says the the basic family of a World Cup winner does not have the goods and ought to be scrapped is beyond me, guys. It defies any sense of logic. You have some serious issues to deal with within yourselves. What did the color crosses bring to the table. Fact is we don't know. Maybe some link between color and roll; maybe nothing. Color modifiers are not "buried" in the family. They dominate the family and are carried by most all of the birds. The fact that you see standard color birds is irrelevant because they are the same family. It's the family, not the color that is significant, here. But all you can see is the color. That is the point we have been trying to get across to you all along. The family deserves and has earned your respect, yet you refuse to give it, choosing instead to make excuses for its success. As to why outcrosses from other families are brought in...well I haven't seen or heard of a family of rollers yet that doesn't need some kind of improvement now and then. Joe Bob has placed 7th, 10th, 15th and 19th and now 1st(not in that order) in the World Cup working with this family over many years, yet you still cannot recognize the facts about the quality of this family???? Slobberknocker (gotta love that name) markets the same family of birds and you brand him a feather merchant peddling colors only???? Someone please explain the logic here. Oh, I forgot, it defies logic. YITS, Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Jul 26, 2005 4:04 PM
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Phantom1
2 posts
Jul 26, 2005
3:35 PM
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Hi Scott!
I've been off this board for some time, but in reading these posts, I "thought" that's why the thread was started - to give credit where credit is due. And a big congratulations to JoeBob!!!
However, the first mention of one little name or origin of his family (Turner, South Carolina) and it's as if those two things became synonymous with colored mongrels. Is this the case? Talk about an atrocity...
So, he's not a color breeder. Fine. Does he have colored birds (i.e. not blue-checks), sure...Fine. What's his fly record to date? Maybe we could all use a little mongrelization eh? LOL!!!
Eric
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Slobberknocker
41 posts
Jul 26, 2005
3:50 PM
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Scott,
First, I do apologize for assuming you did not congratulate Joe Bob other than this forum. My bad.
However, I am confused on one thing and please do not think I am trying to stir up anything. I am just asking so that I am crystal clear on this from your point of view.
What is a color breeder? If it is someone who breedes ONLY for color, then Joe Bob could not possibly be that. However, would you agree that it is possible to breed for both performance and color? I absolutely beleive it can be done but very few men on this planet have the knowledge and experience to do both. As long as we are both absolutely clear on what a color breeder is.
If you say a color breeder is one who breeds ONLY for color, then you and I are on the same page on this.
Bob
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www.slobberknockerlofts.com
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motherlodelofts
210 posts
Jul 26, 2005
5:20 PM
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Bob do I think that you can breed for both color and performance ? Lets hit this from another avenue, Could "I" pair and breed for both performance for say BlueBars ? Not without a serious setback to my breeding program.
The same holds true for pedigree breeding, you cannot breed for paper and some long dead bird without a serious setback , it just doesn't work. There are to many twists and turns trying to hone in around performance and the package that needs to go along with it.
Anytime that the pure focus of performance along with what it takes to hold them together is broken or sidetracked the wrong considerations are made no matter how slight , the fact is it is very difficult as it is making real progress with birds that carry the entire package and then making such birds in any kind of percentages.
Bob I will tell you where JoeBob has me, he's 100 0/0 focused in what I wrote above , there are birds that I wouldn't dream of crossing in due to back in the background of some color cross and it wouldnt matter how far back it was, with him nothing matters and does what it takes to meet the end , few can look past that like that.
He is also a realist, few will tell you the faults of thier birds such as he will do, but also he goes into detail on how he went about climbing over the hurdles and bringing it together. So in short "no" Bob we are not on the same page.
Eric I would "speculate" that he did try to stabalize them within the original family, it would seem like the obvious first thing to do.
As for must be "something" there, forget the color crosses and go to the foundation of the originals, I heard that they were hard fast topnotch birds , Rick Mee told me that they don't get much faster and rolled with very high qaulity and depth.
Your right Cliff (where was my mind) every color breeder accross the country is flying the same birds as the W/C winner that has been been developing his family since the 80s, GREAT JOB GUYS !!!
That thought is nothing short of naive.
Even without crossing outside familys in, the entire dynamics changes away from the source with each passing generation for either better or worse and will do so to the point of the original being an outcross itself. You are looking at twenty years or better of breeding, and you think that it is the same ? So Ciff at what point do these birds become "his" family ?
I suggest that if anyone wants the "straight" scoop on JoeBobs birds then they should e-mail him direct so as to be sure that they aren't getting the censured version,what I commented on here is off of a couple emails that he posted explaining the development of "his" family.
Bob I suggest that you e-mail JoeBob with that same question on whether you can breed for both, I think that you will find his answer simular to mine.
cliff you are no doubt going to have a long road to hoe ahead of you , good luck !!!!!
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jul 26, 2005 10:11 PM
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Phantom1
3 posts
Jul 26, 2005
9:06 PM
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Scott - Why bother farting around with a family that needed to be stablized in the first place? Why not get something better to begin with? I did! Why mess with unknowns? What's so stable about your family or any other? Eventually, we all know where this road leads...and I'm just a new guy.
I've posed this question before and will do so again, so to save others from reading back in the archives. IF I have a family of - say - Reduced Blacks (Blue Laced). They are consistent at every turn and compete - say - to the level of a World Cup Champion Kit. How long would you (Scott) or anyone else say it would be before I would find myself crying to sleep? Come on...think before you all jump on me. Answer - you couldn't. It's not a slam dunk answer. Why? Because very few of us involved in this discussion would know WHAT to do if something were to go astray in that "family". Why? Because they're considered colored birds, and many would claim that I'm licking my own wounds due to the "family" producing throw backs from crosses made generations ago. FACT: Reduced was first discovered in rollers - but that's beside the point. FACT/OPINION - Why is it that when a family tends to get "STIFF" it is suggested that too much inbreeding and/or linebreeding is the cause for the set back? Either that or the flyer culled all their rolldowns or those that were either too frequent or not frequent enough - all in the effort to try and hone in on that fine tuned roller???? The answer to my posed question above - the best results would come from outcrossing to another family based on PERFORMANCE alone. Forget color. Isn't it this "Hybrid Vigor" that adds that zest to a family when they become stiff anyway?
Put in different terms that some will be able to grasp. If all of us in here had a show breed. Stay with me here. Say we all had fantails. We all started with - say - 5 pair each. In three years we all had similar traits missing, and some common strenghts. Good feather length, tail feather count, but missing station and breast width. What would be the first thing we all did? I would seek out a bird that had what I was missing. I would seek out the Best bird possible based on quality alone.
Why is it so difficult to follow this logic for some? I'm not saying that it's the only way possible to attain quality and improve one's stock. But that's what I would do. "Smarter Not Harder".
Look, you want to know my honest opinion? There are a lot of Purists out there and good for YOU!!! There are also a lot of fanciers/fliers out there that embrace change and progress (the opposite of the definition of purist). As Brian M. has stated time and time again, "It's never going to change". I'm not out to the change the world or the views of others. I'm happy with my Brown-Checks and Indigo-Opals that are ripping it in the air at 4 months old. Hey - I like what I feed! Pure and simple, there are those that are dumbfounded that the World Cup Champion pulled some birds from his BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB kit due to heavy losses in his AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA kit, and SOME of them were COLORED birds. And ya know what boys...ya got your tails kicked. Those that are doubting this will be the ones, as I've claimed before, will state, "Well, my birds just had a bad day..." Additionally, the lineage speaks for itself. I know I'm right that there's a stereotype that the SC birds are all colored mongrels, but they sure do roll nice! Heh, heh, heh! I hope to be one of the casualties in the near future. And I'll be the first one on the phone to congratulate the flyer that either flew a bunch of blue-checks or dominant opals, and kicked the crap out of my birds.
To quote "Get out of your own backyard" - I have done so. And I've made some great contacts and have learned much! Hands down - I wouldn't be where I'm at today had I not read those very words on this site. Very good words of advice. I might add, however, to those it applies - STOP reading your piece of paper and try to respectfully put aside the words of the elders long gone in this sport - as things are clearly progressing. Change is inevetable. Had anyone chosen to write THOSE comments down years ago, we wouldn't be having this discussion. My greatest lesson in the business world thus far is "People hear what they want to hear", and I've learned the same applies in the pigeon world. I'm a prime example. I find myself wandering in my own thoughts many times when talking pigeons.
There's no smoke, there's no mirrors. Somebody PUT UP, now it's time for the weary to SHUT UP. This includes myself. I'm no exception to that saying. We're all trying our best to breed and fly the best birds possible. Whether that's for backyard enjoyment (which nobody can touch and contest) or the diehard competitor. Calm down!!!! Please!!!! This is a freakin' hobby, not a business. When you all wake up tomorrow, and go out back, your loft will still be there and your birds will welcome you regardless if they're Rollers, English Carriers, Fantails, or Barn Pigeons. Blue-Checks, Indigos, Opals, or Milkies - ARE YOU HAPPY and ARE YOU DOING what you can to instill confidence and promise in the progress of this hobby? I know my answer, and I'll look forward to seeing everyone's scores in the Fall Fly.
Later!
Eric
Last Edited by Phantom1 on Jul 26, 2005 9:11 PM
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motherlodelofts
211 posts
Jul 26, 2005
10:06 PM
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Eric ask JoeBob , I think that the obvious answer is that he had hard roll out of what he was working with and wanted to keep it.
What is so stable about my birds ? Eric in the past they verged on too stable but rolled hard when they are right, I'm progressing towards that center line from the opposite side that JoeBob had to deal with.
Eric are you hinting that we will see you in the Fall fly ?
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Ballrollers
53 posts
Jul 27, 2005
7:36 AM
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Good post Eric. You are right on the money. this conversation is over as far as I'm concerned. The Turner family of birds have proven themselves to be among the best in the nation and in the world. The color modifiers that were outcrossed in many generations ago have proven to be an irrelevant factor. The color genes may have added something to performance or nothing at all. The jury is still out in that regard. But the outcrossing has had no negative impact on performance, based on their winning performance in regional, national and international competition. Like any other family, the ablities of the breeder and trainer to get the most out of the family remain of paramount importance in their development. Case closed. YITS Cliff
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Phantom1
6 posts
Jul 27, 2005
7:56 AM
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Scott,
Yes - I'm working diligently to get some final hatches up in the air. I'm a bit limited with what I can do in the area I'm in. Working with just one kit box, etc. Have raised many promising birds out of those given to me by Gary Roberts, along with my personal family of some 15+ years and now a bit of Turner blood. If all goes well, I'll be able to waste a judge's valuable time come Fall.
Later,
Eric
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BR Rollers
4 posts
Jul 28, 2005
10:14 AM
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I raise gamefowl as well as Rollers. Some of my fowl breeds go back 200 years to England to the the old wynan fowl.
I very rarely sell a birds but NEVER sell a pair! once the bird leaves my yard it will never be the same family again.
It gets crossed to who knows what? Thus making it not my family ever again.
I was wondering all this hype about Joebobs birds and not one mention of them being HIS birds?
They have been called South Carolina birds, James Turner birds, Danny Horner birds, Don Simpson birds ect ect ect.
I was observing and wondering how I would feel if I had worked 10 years breeding my birds, won several events including the World cup just to have people calling them other peoples families of birds? It is very important that people read what Joebob had wrote and be observant! Learn from his sharing experiences with us. If you noticed he built his team through being observant himself of his birds. It is all in the brood pen and from what I read he has his breeders very fine tuned. This isn't something he bought from Mr turner or anyone else! These are his creations and his hard dedicated efforts to make these birds and this win happen for himself.
Joebob congrats on building a great family of Stuka birds and I am sure we will be seeing you in the future wins.
Your Airforce friend!
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