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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Auction birds - experiences anyone?
Auction birds - experiences anyone?
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Shaun
55 posts
Jul 22, 2005
12:17 PM
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I see there are two US auctions on the go at the moment and there are notable contributors and bidders in both.
I'm interested in a pair from an English flyer (thank you Scott and David for geeing me along). The birds are in England; I'm in England, so there's sense in having a crack at them.
I don't consider that I'm overly cynical nor overly cautious - hey, I let my birds peck about outside their loft - which has many a flyer throwing up his hands in horror!
However, back to the auction: Let's imagine that you've picked up a breeding pair and they're now in your loft. You have to wait until you've bred and flown the youngsters before you can evaluate whether they're any good. You have to churn out quite a few youngsters, feed them, house them and train them.
Yet, if it were your own birds under consideration as breeders, to justify all the time, effort and cost of offspring, you would want to have observed excellent performance from the parents over a sustained period, in order to justify their position in the stock loft. Then - given the fact that great flyers don't necessarily produce great offspring - you would surely breath a huge sigh of relief when they do just that. Then, naturally, you would pump out as many as you can from them - a little roller factory, if you like.
So - putting my cynical hat on - why would anyone donate to an auction, birds of such breeding calibre?
Keeping my cynical hat on, and from the purchaser's persective, wouldn't it reasonable to assume that the breeding birds in question (despite the overall excellent reputation of the flyer and his birds) are not producing the goods any more. Or, perhaps, they're a bit long in the tooth and could pop off sometime soon!
OK, I'll take my cynical hat off and ask you the same questions, one from the donator's point of view and the other as a bidder:
1. You're donating a pair of breeding birds to a good cause. You have an enviable reputation. You're not giving up the sport and you're still flying in competition. So, the donation is a magnanimous gesture on your behalf. The question is: Which pair of breeders do you donate and why?
Now, jump over to the other side of the fence:
2. You're a prospective bidder for a pair of breeding birds from a loft with a highly respected reputation. You can't see the rollers in the flesh, you've never see them fly, you can't even see their previous offspring. All you have to go on is the flyer's reputation.
Experiences anyone, from either side of the fence?
Cheers.
Shaun
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
88 posts
Jul 22, 2005
2:45 PM
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Shaun, you wrote "Let's imagine that you've picked up a breeding pair and they're now in your loft. You have to wait until you've bred and flown the youngsters before you can evaluate whether they're any good. You have to churn out quite a few youngsters, feed them, house them and train them. Yet, if it were your own birds under consideration as breeders, to justify all the time, effort and cost of offspring, you would want to have observed excellent performance from the parents over a sustained period, in order to justify their position in the stock loft. Then - given the fact that great flyers don't necessarily produce great offspring - you would surely breath a huge sigh of relief when they do just that. Then, naturally, you would pump out as many as you can from them - a little roller factory, if you like."
Shaun, in essence, this is what you are currently doing with your Mason birds. You really have no idea of their potential as breeders or flyers. Given that George has a good family, it is safe to assume that no matter how you mate up his birds, you should see some good results.
If you compare that to what you mentioned about the auction birds, the same situation exists for you. (or for anyone else for that matter). In both regards, it is simple matter of blind faith.
Now in regards to the auction, most flyers who contribute to it do so first because they were asked, and second because they want to contribute to an effort which will provide financial support for a flying organization they respect. There is no monetary gain for the breeder himself. The entire profits from the WC auction go towards the production of the annual bulletin (magazine). The NBRC auction revenue goes towards financing the convention.
As for the birds in the auction themselves, few pairs would actually be "breeding pairs". In fact most guys offer up a pair of "young birds", or a pair of old birds from their stock loft that may or may not have ever been mated up before. Some guys usually will make a pair from their competition kits, rather than the stock loft, choosing two that would be a comparable mating. Basically, "yah, these two would go good together". BUT, some very well might offer a proven pair of breeders. Each auction item will be different.Some contributors will offer up several young birds or even half a kit.
If you see a listing for a "pair", that doesn't mean they are actually a mated pair, but rather a cock and a hen that the breeder either feels would be a good mating, or two that are young enough the flyer could fly out if he wanted and decide for himself if he wanted to pair them up that way. There really are various options in regards to the birds in those auctions.
For example. I was asked to put some birds in the WC auction. I agreed to do so and decided to offer a pair (cock and hen) from one of two different families I have. The winning bidder for that auction item will have his/her choice. But the birds will not be birds right out of my stock pen, though actually one of them was bred from and is in the stock pen. Either "pair" would consist of two birds from that family that I feel would probably make a good mating. As always, there are no guarantees as they have never been mated up before. The contributor offers a donated bird, pair, kit, etc., and the winning bidder has the opportunity to try out some birds from another family, or maybe even add to a similar family he already has.
The bottom line with these auctions is that flyers are donating to a cause. Whether it's the birds or the money, the foundation is the support for either venue and club.
Brian.
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motherlodelofts
192 posts
Jul 22, 2005
4:49 PM
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Shaun , most of the time it is a crap shoot, but also normally if a pair doesn't work the breeder will help out making something work.
I might also add that most in these auctions are not feather merchants but are fliers and competitors , these are the type of people that you want to persue birds from.
As for the birds that I have donated in the past I make sure that I put in from my best
As for that pair , Shaun "Dave" gaurantees these to be proven producers, when that statement comes from a Rollerman of Daves caliber all I can say is CHA CHING CHA CHING CHA CHING LOL LOL
We are talking about a PROVEN PAIR Shaun from a "real" Rollerman, buddy all I can say is "jump" on it.
It will take you "years" for you to figure out if you even have such with what you have now and you may not even have such.
I see that Wayne Grove has high bid at 150 pesos , Wayne also started out with the Mason birds.
You know I like Wayne Shaun , maybe your right after all and you don't need that pair of "proven producers" sorry for wasting your time with this LOL of coarse you want and "need" that pair shaun.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jul 22, 2005 6:09 PM
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lil sweden loft
2 posts
Jul 22, 2005
9:59 PM
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I was just wondering where you can find these auctions that you are discussing.
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George Ruiz
37 posts
Jul 22, 2005
11:26 PM
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Last year I was lucky to get four squekers from the World Cup auction that were donated by Kieth London from Los Angeles .
Kieth has been competing with success for a long time with placing in numerous flys, in other words a proven flyer of Birmingham rollers.
I got some youngsters that are bred off the birds I got for the price of 40.00 dollers(yes for four birds ) and let me tell you there the real deal no B.S. 15 to 35 footers strait and fast and a tight spin with frequency.
I think I got a sweet deal and also helped the World Cup with the Bulletin.
This is a chance to get some birds at very good prices from bloodlines that are WORLD CLASS TESTED AND FLOWN IN MAJOR COMPS and thats more than most feather merchants can offer you at very high prices
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Shaun
56 posts
Jul 23, 2005
5:56 AM
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Brian and Scott, thanks for your comments. Brian first: From what Scott says and from the auction details, the pair under discussion are an established breeding pair.
Ideally, I would have started with a few breeders, but there were none available. So, I've taken the longer route with my Mason birds, with which to breed from in a few months' time. Obviously, with that cost still hurting somewhat, I feel I need to put my efforts into the Mason line for a time.
However, I do appreciate that good breeding stock doesn't come up very often and I don't wish to pass up a good opportunity.
Scott, knowing that you you're well-versed with Dave's birds and you're certainly familiar with the Mason line, would the masterplan be for me to integrate them, so as to try for a new line - or to keep them separate and see how each line develops?
Shaun
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motherlodelofts
193 posts
Jul 23, 2005
6:07 AM
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Seperate Shaun
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Slobberknocker
38 posts
Jul 23, 2005
9:46 AM
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Scott,
Great words of wisom!! Keep the families separate. I know of maybe one or two Roller men who have the knowlegde to integrate birds from one family into another and even they will say it takes years before the new "family" is established and breeding anywhere near true.
Most of the guys on here have one, well-established family that they breed from and fly. If they have more than one family, they will almost always keep them separate.
Bob
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www.slobberknockerlofts.com
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Shaun
57 posts
Jul 23, 2005
1:04 PM
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Many thanks for your responses, gentlemen. Now, continuing the theme - suppose I bring in a nice pair of breeders, either via the auction in question or elsewhere, should the auction not work out.
So, I keep the Mason and whomever lines separate and breed accordingly. But, alarm bells are ringing: within an earlier post of mine, there were mentions from you guys of mentoring and my listening to the wisdom of George Mason, from whom I've acquired my main birds. I took that as very sound advice. So, as you were in general agreement, I'm not flying the birds; I'm being patient and will only fly the youngsters.
So, fast forward just a couple of months and now I bring in one or more breeding pairs from another loft, whilst I'm still in regular contact with George about the birds he's supplied me, whilst also listening to his advice and agreeing that some time soon I must travel up to see him and his rollers.
Well, this leads me to another burning question - a matter of protocol.
Is what I'm contemplating, perfectly acceptable in the roller world? Remember, in England, we're very small and word gets around.
Would you established guys be OK with this? Imagine, you've just supplied some new roller guy with birds, because you were the loft he wanted to go with. You're keeping in regular contact. Then, it transpires your newbie has also added a breeding pair from another competing loft, not too far away from you.
Would this bother you? If so, why? If not, why not?
Shaun
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highroller
38 posts
Jul 23, 2005
1:20 PM
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Shaun,
The only reason it would bother me would be if my birds weren't as good as I said they were and I was afraid the others you bought would be better than mine. And if that were the case I SHOULD be bothered but would have no reason to be upset with you. Good roller breeders aren't afraid of a little competition and might even be happy you have another family to compare theirs with as long as they are sure you will not mix them.
Dan
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
375 posts
Jul 23, 2005
3:02 PM
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Shaun.I don,t know about England but here in the good ole USA we have the right to do whatever we choose to do.
Unless you made an agreement with Mason or some other breeder that you wouldn,t keep any other families of rollers then it don,t matter what anyone else thinks or says.Go read the post made on the Color Topics and look at the Heat I have taken for raising and flying Color Rollers.They have called my rollers all sorts of names.Mongrels,Crossbreds,etc.etc.
You are not going to please everyone in the Roller World so as long as you are Happy and you pay the feed bill who cares what others say.We all live in a small World anymore thanks to the innernet.
I have several Familys of Rollers I work with.Each family is a little different and I like some things in each.It would be nice to put everything I like in all of them into one family but it won,t ever happen for me.
The bottom line is I enjoy Rollers and I have surrounded myself with them.I don,t care what anyone else feels is right or wrong I do what pleases me.
I feel that everyone has that same right. David
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Slobberknocker
39 posts
Jul 23, 2005
5:03 PM
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Preach on David!!!!
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www.slobberknockerlofts.com
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Shaun
58 posts
Jul 24, 2005
1:20 AM
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David, that sounds a little on the heavy side. I know you've taken some stick, as I've read the type of posts you mention. It sometimes seems like a war zone! I'm certainly staying out of such debates.
But, I'm not worried that my rights might be violated, if I can put it that way. In England, we have every bit as much freedom as you guys have, but sometimes that freedom can lead to certain dilemmas. When we have lots of choice, much consideration can go into making the right choice, which is what I'm now doing. It's the feelings of others, whom I respect and have done me no wrong, that I'm hoping to preserve.
I'm very new to this game and I don't wish, for no good reason, to upset the very men I will continue to rely on to further my roller career. This is why I welcome the thoughts of other established roller guys, as to how they would feel in the same situation.
Shaun
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Velo99
50 posts
Jul 24, 2005
7:01 AM
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Shaun,
If you feel that Goerge might be offended somply don`t tell him you have another line of birds. Like others I do not believe George would care one way or another what you have as long as you don`t outcross into his birds.
v99
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viper
5 posts
Jul 24, 2005
9:38 AM
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Breed the familys seperate then fly out the young you might find one family works out better for you than the other.Maybe....
Blake
seperate
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
377 posts
Jul 24, 2005
11:20 AM
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Shaun.You can soft foot around everyone in England and you still won,t please everyone.I respect everyone and their choice of birds and I expect everyone to respect me regardless of what family/families I choose.
How will you ever know what you like best if you don,t try the other families?Sometimes you need to try something new just to keep your interst peaked and sometimes you need to do so to apperciate what you already have.
I don,t feel any breeder will disrepect someone for trying someone elses birds.If they did then they have an attitude and need it adjusted.LOL. David
P.S. Unless you have made such an agreement before acquiring their birds.
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Shaun
59 posts
Jul 24, 2005
12:00 PM
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David, I think Scott caught me unawares with the mention of the Dave Mosely birds. A tempting proposition, yes, but having just taken on many George Mason birds - and having just started with rollers 3 months ago, I was just settling down to thoughts of getting them breeding to then see what happens.
Of course I have to keep an open mind, but equally I've read of guys who've pulled in birds from here, there and everywhere with disastrous results.
So, of course you're right in saying that I won't know what I like best if I don't try other families. However, I had imagined that I might have time to at least try out one family and get to know it well, so that if and when I did bring in another, I'd at least be experienced enough to be able to compare the relative families properly. I think it really is very early days for me to be diversifying so quickly. After all, it will be next year before I have a kit of George Mason birds to fly and properly evaluate.
Nevertheless, a different breeding pair, from another quality loft, quietly pumping out a few youngsters in tandem, does have a certain appeal - I'm, therefore, watching the auction with keen interest.
Scott, this is one for you, as you know Dave (and, just to get back to the main purpose of this auction thread, which arose because a pair of his breeders are up for grabs), picture the situation, with a certain wicked irony, that the bulk of the George Mason birds I have, end up being used as fosters for the Dave Mosely pair.
Shaun
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motherlodelofts
194 posts
Jul 24, 2005
8:20 PM
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Shaun I spoke with that Dave about that pair , he said they produce in the 80 0/0 range , it doesn't get much better than that !!!
As for useing some unproven pairs as fosters , nothing wicked about that at all and that is "exactly" what you would want to do !!
Ask Dexter about those birds he has over there from Dave.
For the right pair they are worth no less than your left nut, you are talking about trying to work on a foundation that is going to take years and countless hours of work.
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fhtfire
170 posts
Jul 24, 2005
11:29 PM
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Shaun,
If I were you...I would try what Dave has on the auction. Trust me...when you first start out you should try a couple different strains, just to see what works better for you. It is not uncommon to have a couple different strains in your loft. Right now I have weeded mine down to Ruby Rollers, Scott Campbell and Roe/Emami. I do not think Scott is offended tha I am trying Ruby Rollers and I do not think that Tony is offended that I am trying Roe/Emami birds. The hard part now for me is weeding it down further. Because to be honest they are all working for me. You should try....or Call George and tell him that you want to have two strains..and assure him that you will keep his birds pure. Scott is right...if you can get your hands on a good pair..you would give your left nut for it. These type of oppurtunities do not come every day.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Shaun
60 posts
Jul 25, 2005
3:06 AM
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OK, you guys have convinced me. Now, what's a left nut worth these days?
Shaun
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Velo99
53 posts
Jul 25, 2005
2:26 PM
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I believe Shaun hit it on the head earlier when he said he has only been in rollers for a few months and hasn`t even bred a pair yet. He also alluded to the fact that it is not always a good thing to have multiple families in your loft. Rick Mees stated it is better ot have one family due to the fact there is no need to feed differently from family to family. There should be a tighter bond between birds from the same family, ie kitting tighter and responding to the break stimuli with better synchronization.
The advice I would issue in my limited experience is to stay with one family. It makes everything easier at first.If you would like to add another family wait a season or two.
mtc yits
v99
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Shaun
62 posts
Jul 25, 2005
11:49 PM
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V99, I'd better clear a couple of bits up. I started earlier this year with rollers from a guy in England who has been 'doing it' for 40 years. However, he doesn't compete, so I took a chance with a number of his rollers, simply because he was the only person I could find from whom I could acquire any birds. Can you believe, he was the only guy on the Internet selling rollers in England?
I then began flying these birds and lost half, as they'd all been flown from a different loft. You can also add in there a bit of inexperience in knowing how to settle old birds!
Anway, what was left, I then started to breed from and have managed 8 youngsters so far of various ages. However, it was my desperation to get a kit of birds flying this year, that made me track down George Mason. Straightaway, he had a handful of youngsters, never flown. I took those on, settled all but one and I now fly them with the ones I've bred, so I have a kit of 10 doing well, which I fly twice a day.
I then obtained from George a whole kit of youngsters, which I'm locking down to breed from when they're ready.
It's at this point that the Dave Moseley pair came up for auction and Scott kindly pointed them out. He knows Dave and his birds, so once I was convinced they weren't any old stuff being given away for auction purposes, I had to give this serious consideration.
I've decided to give the auction a shot for the one solid reason that one guy after another has posted - opportunities like this are rare.
It has taken me months of hard work so far to establish that the original rollers I started with are OK, but nothing special. Then, it will be well into next year before I can evaluate the offspring of the George Mason youngsters.
So, whilst waiting for George's birds to mature and breed, I have a window of opportunity to have a bash at another guy's birds.
The intention would be to use my initial not so good birds as fosters, thus allowing me pump out a few from the newly acquired breeding pair. What this means is that later on this year, when other guys have locked their birds down and stopped breeding, I won't have to. I've got all autumn and winter to try out this new line, before I get stuck into the breeding program for the George Mason birds, later on.
In some respects, I'm throwing myself into the deep end and I could balls up along the way. But, this game is an apprencticeship, if nothing else, so I'm going to give it a shot.
Shaun
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