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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Gene Connection
Gene Connection
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Slobberknocker
42 posts
Jul 28, 2005
12:11 PM
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I have always wanted to ask this, but I knew where it would lead before. I also suspect that very few will be able to answer the question, if any, to a 100% certainty. But, here is goes.....
I have heard talk of Recessive Reds, for example, being very hot in certain families of Rollers. Is there a definite connection between the roll gene and any genes for color/pattern?
Not looking to start up the age old debate here, just wanted to know.
Bob
Last Edited by on Mar 09, 2007 6:37 AM
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J_Star
17 posts
Jul 28, 2005
12:18 PM
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I heared in the past that a R. Red bird off of a black parents is usually hot. I don't know the exact truth to that.
Jay
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motherlodelofts
215 posts
Jul 28, 2005
12:48 PM
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Bob I'll hit this from my families perspective , The answer is absoulutly at least to some degree , I think first you have to look at "roll" you have mentally strong and mentally weak along with physically strong and weak, then you have everything inbetween and in combination of each other,an example is what is a bird that is physically strong and mentally strong ? it is a stiff,non performer ect. These weakneses and strength will no doubt piggy back(or vice versa) Colors,factor,patterns or what have you to some degree.
Use Rec. red as an example within my family , I have one side that throws rec red mottles,rec red , and blue checkers.
The blue checkers I could cull out of the nest(never do though) as they are allways "strong" mentally and physically and I have never gotten a good one , the rec reds are on the hot side even if nestmates with the Blue checkers.
Kenny told me a while back to watch for the pairs that throw alot of youngsters that show black beaks,toe's and toe nails as that is the strong side of the family and if you breed towards that they will go stiff as boards on you, I look in my A team and only two met this in the entire A team and yet I breed quit a few, no doubt an imprortant of piece of information there that pertains to this family. The frequency is in the smokey.
So yes there are pattens that follow these physically and mentally, but this is a "FAMILY" trait.
Back to the rec reds , on another line within the family I will get rec reds that have that washed out look with blue showing through , these run more in line with the other blue's, may pan out or may not, but I can't remember getting one that is too hot, and many will run on the stiff side.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jul 28, 2005 1:03 PM
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Slobberknocker
43 posts
Jul 28, 2005
1:29 PM
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Scott,
I understand what you are saying, but not sure you answered the questions. Birds that are physically and mentally strong as it pertains to the roll would be this way regardless of color. I guess what I am asking is, does the color control the quality of the roll or vice versa? And, if so, how and why?
Bob
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www.slobberknockerlofts.com
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motherlodelofts
216 posts
Jul 28, 2005
1:45 PM
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Yes, at least in at least to me degree, in some families to a large degree, and in others to a small degree or even to point where it is hard to put a finger on it.
charactor(mental strength or weakness)does tend to follow hard or soft color to a point(read above as I put the cart before the horse here)
Pensom hit on this quite a bit.
But to take this thought even deeper go back to my original post on how it pertains to my faily of mainly hard colors.
Is there a set in stone and this is the way it is a 100 0/0 of the time accross the board with the breed ? with "these" birds there isn't anything a 100 0/0.
Bob I thought my first post answered your question pretty well as it pertains to "my' birds , am I not understanding the question ?
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jul 28, 2005 1:51 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
96 posts
Jul 28, 2005
1:53 PM
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Bob, overall I think Scott brought up some of the most important issues, those being specific characteristics not only within each individual bird, but within a family as a whole. I have been sort of cataloging experiences I have had and what becomes most evident is that color or marking seems to be incomplete in such an analysis without fully understanding the mental and physical make up the parent birds. In regards to recessive reds, the only ones I have noticed that follow the "hot" pattern are ones that come from a mating where one of the parents was a RR and both were pretty frequent rollers with medium to slender size. On pairs where the parents were of a larger frame, and not quite as hot in the roll, the offspring were their equal with none being hot.
In pigeons, recessive red is a unique color as it appears we can associate it with other features. Soft feather is common in RR birds. Most mosaics are usually a partial expression of RR in combination with the bird's true color. Incomplete meiosis is said to be the reason, thus it would appear the RR does have a unique manner in which it can be seen as genetically unstable. But I feel that has more to do with the myriad of other genes involved. Its almost like chemistry where it takes the proper combination of specific elements to create a certain result. If one of those elements is not correct, the results can often be something different than intended.
There are some tendencies with genes such as recessive color genes, dilutes, reduced, pale and even dominant brown that do have somewhat of a genetically disolving character to them in a tightly bred gene pool. To what degree that degeneration will express itself, I believe, has a lot to do with the numerous other genes in the family that contribute to the mental and physcial attributes. I don't believe one specific gene such as RR can create drastically different performance results when getting a recessive red roller from two dominant colored rollers. If the combination of other genes are strong enough and packaged in a specific manner, I believe the differences would be minimal to not even noticable at all. But if that gene pool were continually inbred and the combination of genes that generate strong mental and physical character become weakened, I think you will begin to see where RR can begin to effect the offspring, usually by producing rollers with less resistance which in turn means hotter rollers.
It is my opinion that if you took a pair of blue checks, a pair of recessive reds and a pair of cream bars (dilute ash red) and inbred the youngsters together from those pairs, that evenutually the dilutes and the recessive reds would begin to degenerate. Feather quality would begin to suffer. They will most likely begin to get smaller heads. Eye character would become flat and dull. But in the blue checks, over the same amount of time and breeding practice, most likely would not result in these changes to such a dramatic degree. There is a reason that the Rock Dove is a blue bar. On the cliffs of the Mediterraean where rock doves still live, those blue bars still look pretty strong to me. And that is after thousands of years!
In my rollers there is really only one color-based characteristic that I have seen repeat itself. And that is if I get a blue check hen from two ash reds, it will be the best one from that breeding. It is almost guaranteed. The only other thing I have noticed is that if I get a blue check from a pair of het blacks, those too usually end up being better as well. But while it is easy to assume the obvious, I still feel there are way more genetic contributions that make up this combination that we simply cannot see and only a handful of the extremely genetically aware could even begin to dissect with any accuracy.
Those would be my thoughts.
Brian.
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motherlodelofts
217 posts
Jul 28, 2005
2:31 PM
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Qaulity !!! hmmm , I think that it plays in with what allready has been written, Physical strength and mental strength has to be there for qaulity
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big al
60 posts
Jul 29, 2005
12:59 AM
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Hi Bob,
With my birds color does not control the quality of the roll at all as far as I can see. Selective breeding for style, character, stregnth and depth show me the quality. However the R.R's are soft feathered comparitively speaking which can sometimes yield a hotter or deeper spin in some but not all families. I think a particular bird who's feathering is a little too soft may experience roll quality challenges because of possible control issues. I guess as an overall it really boils down to the particular family and the traits that have been bred into it.
Just my thoughts.
See you in the roll!!
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Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
Last Edited by big al on Jul 29, 2005 1:01 AM
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nicksiders
175 posts
Jul 29, 2005
9:05 PM
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I don't know, but it sounds like we are saying color affects or influences certian traits in the performance of the bird.
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
98 posts
Jul 29, 2005
10:55 PM
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Nick, color has no effect on a bird's wing position or it's speed, which make up the main portion of what most consider "quality" in terms of performance. The only connection that could even be conceivable in any way would be in regards to frequency and depth, which are "control" issues and largely linked to a bird's character. In some families and even in some general pairings, color might seem to be indicative of certain types of performance (depth, frequency). But that largely has to do with the character of the parents and the gene pool in general. Where color plays the most important role is with the experience the breeder has gathered over a period of time. He knows his families and it's traits. The same traits that make a RR pigeon hot and even a roll down can equally be observed in say a blue check or red check white flight. The color at that point is irrelevant because it is the character that will reproduce its likeness (or worse), not the color having an effect. I hope that makes sense...LOL.
Brian.
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
389 posts
Jul 30, 2005
4:33 AM
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Brian.In my rollers I have found that the RR's and yellows off them have not showed me the frequency & depth that so many say they have in their RR's.So I agree with you that it could be any color that will do this.I am down to 4 pair and will be replacing them when I can find some rr's or yellows that are what I want.
My Recessive Reds are what you would call stiff.They are blue check under the red coat.I had thought on trying a mating with one of my rolldowns to see what happened.hehe.
A good friend and flyer was visiting recently and he commented that he noticed I didn,t have many Yellows.This is why.Just to stiff.I am sure that if I keep trying different hens I will hit on something that works.Which is what we do with all our rollers. David
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motherlodelofts
219 posts
Jul 30, 2005
8:26 AM
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Brian how many soft feathered puff balls have you seen smoke it , to a fair degree such birds will follow particular colors.
Dave why do you want to keep trying different hens trying to get a non producer to produce ? I find that such pairings produce the same,non producers
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jul 30, 2005 8:28 AM
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Slobberknocker
44 posts
Jul 30, 2005
8:43 AM
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Brian, Thank you for making it clear. There seems to be no direct connection, good or bad, between the color of the bird and its ability to roll well.
Scott, some pairs just don't click. Smart breeders will give a bird every opportunity to produce good birds. Granted, some just will not produce anything no matter what they are mated to. Others just need to find that right mate to make things work.
I have a pair mated now that, in theory, should peoduce a lot of top quality birds. Both of these birds were proven out in the air. However, mated together they may not produce good birds. That doesn't mean they are culls.
A very knowledgable Roller man with about 45 years experience told me that not every Roller is a spinner and not every spinner is a breeder. Something to think about.
Bob
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Last Edited by on Mar 09, 2007 6:37 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
390 posts
Jul 30, 2005
11:29 AM
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Scott. Bob covered it pretty well.He said;
some pairs just don't click. Smart breeders will give a bird every opportunity to produce good birds. Granted, some just will not produce anything no matter what they are mated to. Others just need to find that right mate to make things work.
The reason I said trying different hens is because I know what the cock is.He has everything I want and I feel sure if I find the right hen things will work.
Then to he may not be able to reproduce himself either.As Bobs post said not every spinner is a breeder.David
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Mongrel Lofts
14 posts
Jul 30, 2005
12:23 PM
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David,
I couldn't disagree more on this topic of trying to find a mate that a bird makes good rollers on... This is how you make a line of birds that hit and miss and the percentage of good rollers are low. A smart breeder knows that a prolific breeder of good roll, will make good rollers on most any mate as long as it is bred to another good roller. All birds may not be great, but you get enough good rollers to think the bird deserves another try in the stock loft. I mate a bird on two mates, if it don't make me some birds good enough to make my A team, its not good enough to be in my stock loft.. Good breeders breed good rollers on most mates.. Birds that have to be bred to 5 or 6 different mates to find one they make roll on, should be culled and the bird they were finally mated to that they produced on, should get the credit for producing the roll and get another try on another mate.. Your wasting loft space and food on any bird that you have to move around to find a bird it will make roll on..This could also be the difference in breeding family and not just breeding a collection of birds.. Something to think about. Mongrel Lofts
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
391 posts
Jul 30, 2005
1:44 PM
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Kenny.You may be right.However I never was one that took the easy way out.I had to prove to myself weather it was or wasn,t.I will be content to keep trying hens on the cock untill I find one that works or if he is no good.If I happen to find one that works look how far ahead of the game I would be rather than cull everything I think wasn,t working.You keep right on culling all those rollers of yours and I won,t have to worry about competing against you.LOL.
Let me ask you a question.If you took one of your Good Blue Check Cocks and mated it with a couple of your Yellow Check Hens and they didn,t produce what you wanted would you cull the cock? David
Last Edited by Bluesman on Jul 30, 2005 1:48 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
99 posts
Jul 30, 2005
1:54 PM
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David, I think you are missing Kenny's point. In the basic essence of what he said, it is quite true in the big picture. The time you spend trying to find a mate for this bird that works is a crap shoot. Yes, all pairings are crap shoots, but if you know the production potential of the breeders, the risk becomes less and less. In the meantime, you could have focused on some other birds that were at least marginally productive and proceeded with the building steps for the family or families you are working with. Now, having one pair off to the side that you could consider "tinkering" with isn't going to hurt you either. As long as you have other pairings going on that tend to yield satisfactory results.
Brian.
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
392 posts
Jul 30, 2005
1:58 PM
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Brian.Most everything I breed the rest of the year is project pairings.When I do this I take my best cocks to breed from. David
P.S. I will add that this Rec.Red Cock is the only RR I have to work with.He is the best I have come up with.If and when I find one better he will be gone.LOL
Last Edited by Bluesman on Jul 30, 2005 2:06 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
100 posts
Jul 30, 2005
2:20 PM
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Scott wrote "Brian how many soft feathered puff balls have you seen smoke it , to a fair degree such birds will follow particular colors."
Scott, I have seen some birds you could consider as "soft feathered" roll really nice, but usually more smooth than super fast. Many of those soft feathered birds were of different colors as well. It is worth mentioning from my observation that these also tend to be birds that vary their performance rather than always be hitting their stride.
I agree that you will see it happen in some colors more than others. Probably the worst rollers I have ever seen that had a performance pattern to them are recessive red white flights. I can only recall one that was an exceptional roller, and this bird was a hybrid vigor cross rather than straight from a family. But my own observations doesn't mean it is a set standard within the breed. Just something I have observed.
I do not believe, with a few exceptions, that you will effectively get a lesser performing bird based solely on the color it comes out as. If your family of hard character blue checks produces a rec. red, is that bird automatically a soft feathered fluff ball? I seriously doubt it. Your gene pool is constructed in such a way that it is intense in dominant traits, much of which contribute to the character and type of the birds you raise. They have a expression of sharpness to them, something birds of a duller nature do not have, and those come in all colors, not just fluff ball colors.
Now if that family were, let's say, a little less stable, maybe not so robust in character and lacking defining will power, the chances then become greater that some of the recessive (both sex linked and non sexed linked) expression birds can be a lesser quality bird both in performance and character. It becomes the result of a result.
Since I am expressing my opinion, I will add that I feel soft feathered birds can come from a family void of recessive colors. I've handled many soft feathered blacks and blue checks. It is a character trait in the gene pool of the stock loft. In the big picture, I like to look at this subject as being "a chink in the armor". Where there is vulnerability, there is an avenue for lesser quaility traits to express themselves, either individually or in combination with other factors, generating a result we conclude is negative. This, to me, is how recessive red works in a stud of rollers.
Brian.
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Mongrel Lofts
16 posts
Jul 30, 2005
2:23 PM
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Let me ask you a question.If you took one of your Good Blue Check Cocks and mated it with a couple of your Yellow Check Hens and they didn,t produce what you wanted would you cull the cock? David
David,
Let me answer your question with a couple of my rules to live by... Yellows are for Gays. Whites are for weddings and funerals. Rare colored Mongrels are mutts. They will always need a loud deceiving advocate to make them seam equal to the Birmingham roller.. I hope this answers your question? Mongrel Lofts
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
393 posts
Jul 30, 2005
4:09 PM
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Sorry Kenny.I didn,t know that the rules you live by had anything to do with my question.I didn,t know that Yellows were for Gays.Again I am sorry.David
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Slobberknocker
45 posts
Jul 30, 2005
4:39 PM
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Guys,
I am very sorry to have asked the original question here. I see it is still not safe to ask about something I would like to know about here. I am sorry that this thread has ended up the way it has.
Kenny, without starting a debate, I would like to ask you a couple questions simply because I do not know the answers.
How did you do in the WC this year (just curious as I read your post on another topic here and know you have a great family of birds that you have put a lot of time and work into and they do well for you)?
What is your opinion of Joe Bob Stuka (besides the fact that you think he is gay according to your statement)?
Also, what do you think of the SC birds overall (if you have seen them firsthand in the air)?
If you are going to post something disrespectful, please don't. If you are uncomfortable with the questions, I understand and will not press for answers. Again, I do not wish to continue a debate or start an argument, I am just asking and hope you can provide respectful answers to the questions.
Bob
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Last Edited by on Mar 09, 2007 6:30 AM
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fhtfire
173 posts
Jul 30, 2005
5:07 PM
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Mongrel...I have to agree with you...on your first post that is. If you have to find a mate for a cock by boucning him off 4-5 different hens...well...his neck is off!...A good cock will produce good birds on any hen.....but when it is a click pair...it will produce mostly good birds. At the rate that pigeons produce....why take the time screwing with a cock on different hens...or vise versa.....either they got it or they don't. To me a click pair is a pair that produces a very high percentage of good birds. A good cock will produce spinners on any hen...that of course if the hen is good to..well it should be if it made it to the stock loft. I myself will try a new cock on two different proven hens...and if he is subpar and not better then himself or as good as himself...he is culled...then I move on to my next cock in line for testing. The same goes for a hen...I try her on two of my proven cocks...and if they are a click...you know it in a second....when you start to see most of that pairs young making it to the A team. Just my opinion...don't spend to much time spinning your wheels when you may have a good set of tires in the garage that will give you some traction!
As for yellows being for Gays...I do not think Eddie Verdugo is Gay....He is one tough Vato Loco...and he has yellows....I have seen his yellows tear it up with my own eyes. The term color blind means two things....don't be blind to the roll by looking at color....and Don't be blind to the color if you are looking at the roll!
rock and ROLL
Paul Fullerton
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nicksiders
176 posts
Jul 30, 2005
5:21 PM
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Kenny, Kenny, Kenny..............LOL
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birdman
34 posts
Jul 30, 2005
6:36 PM
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"Yellows are for gays"...
Quite a legacy you are working on. But after reading several of your posts, very predictable. LOL
Last Edited by birdman on Jul 30, 2005 7:17 PM
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Velo99
57 posts
Jul 30, 2005
6:44 PM
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We are entitled to our own opinion even when it involves a case of athelete`s tongue.
Geez,it was funny in a locker room sorta way.
In MY family the griz is frequent. The hard colors are faster but not always as smooth. I feel we all have a diferent agenda with our birds in regards as to which color is better. The answer is this. What color is your foundation pair? Most of us breed what works. In my family it is fast griz bred to a hard color fast roller. trying to stradddle the fence so to speak. In others it may be blue spread and checkers.
yits Kenny
v99
Last Edited by Velo99 on Jul 30, 2005 7:06 PM
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Ballrollers
55 posts
Jul 30, 2005
9:33 PM
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Bob, One of the fastest, deepest and best kitting birds I ever saw was a reduced recessive red (yellow with white bars) of Joe Bob's. In fact he was trying to figure out how to breed a spnning yellow lace out of it. I think those that insinuate he is gay for owning such a bird had better hide behind the internet and not say it to his face if they value thier hide! Come to think of it, I can think of a bunch of guys in that category! It doesn't take too many balls to take cheap shots at others on the internet. So at least we are finding out who's go 'em and who doesn't! Cliff
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motherlodelofts
220 posts
Jul 30, 2005
9:34 PM
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Bob & Dave , what I started working on a few years ago was upping my percentages due to I was tired of just breeding birds and getting a good one here and there.
I don't look for those birds that only work when mated to a particular bird, all I got was birds that bred the same way and ended up far to many culls verses good one's. It was just way to hit and miss.
What really started pushing my percentages up was honing in around a few key birds that produced a decent percentage no matter what, these birds came out of birds that were also hard producers.
I might add that I only breed out of the best out of the air out of birds that are out of these producers , but that doesn't mean that every good one is worthy of the stock loft nor does it mean every good one that is worthy will produce.
As for not so good in the air being able to breed , yes few can but they don't get that chance here as I'm looking for long term , I would rather crap shoot off of an unflown bird out of hard producing parents than breed out of one that wasn't that good in the air.
Fact is I want my stock birds to "show" me what they are made of , I'm just funny that way.
The bottom line is that I got tired of breeding birds and "hoping" for good ones by filling boxes, now I work on "making" good ones and trying to make it far less of a crap shoot, and in turn I have made solid progress in that direction.
Just my opinion
Bob what was your intent on this thread ? lets hear your thoughts on the question that you asked
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jul 30, 2005 10:05 PM
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Ballrollers
56 posts
Jul 30, 2005
9:41 PM
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Scott, I guess it depends on the stage of development of ones breeding program. I'm still at that "hoping" stage and filing kit boxes, like Kenny, Caleb, Eric and some of the other guys. Though the birds were selected out of the air, as of yet, they are only proven performers, and not proven breeders. So the tough call now is whether to cull those that didn't produce or try them with another pairing one more year. YITS Cliff
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motherlodelofts
221 posts
Jul 30, 2005
10:03 PM
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Cliff it takes time to figure out what is producing the goods, there just isn't any fast way to go about it.
A couple of years down the road when you look in the A team and see a number of particular good ones out of a one or hopefully a few particular birds ( a pattern of particular birds producing) Then that is the stepping off point and hopefully will guide you to key birds to base around.
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Mongrel Lofts
17 posts
Jul 30, 2005
10:14 PM
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Guys,
I am very sorry to have asked the original question here. I see it is still not safe to ask about something I would like to know about here. I am sorry that this thread has ended up the way it has.
((( Bob, I'm sorry you guys have no since of humor. I sure was laughing when I wrote my rules to live by post.. I guess I just have a warped since of humor.. Oh well, it should go a long way in building my legacy,, See, now that was funny.. LOL)))
Kenny, without starting a debate, I would like to ask you a couple questions simply because I do not know the answers.
How did you do in the WC this year (just curious as I read your post on another topic here and know you have a great family of birds that you have put a lot of time and work into and they do well for you)?
((( I moved back to Calif for 3 months and was unable to fly in the WC, prelims This year.. This was the first fly I have missed of any kind since 1979.., I hated setting this one out.. My best finish in the WC finals was second in 96.. I have placed 2nd, 4th, 6th and 12th .. I won the first ever Calif Classic in 1989 and placed top ten a few times. I won the 11 bird National fly last year and have place top 10 in both the 20 and the 11 bird in the past. Bob, Others that fly birds down from my family have done well in competition, both on the local, national and world level. Thanks for the opportunity to talk about my family of Birmingham rollers Bob.
Bob, if you don't mind me asking, how did you place in the WC last year and how have you done with the SC birds? Either in WC or NBRC flys? What is your record flying this SC family in competition over the years? )))
What is your opinion of Joe Bob Stuka (beseides the fact that you think he is gay according to your statement)?
((( I think Joe Bob is a top notch flyer..His fly record proves it. Your the first I know of to call JB Gay. Funny how you guys try to make these huge leaps to cause trouble with half truth,, Hard not to reply in kind,,I will try not to.. )))
Also, what do you think of the SC birds overall (if you have seen them firsthand in the air)?
((( I think some of the best birds in the country have went to SC..The Lloyd Thompson birds and the Pensom's to name just a couple.. I think if everyone would have bred from just those Birmingham rollers, We would not have the debate about rollers being crossed on other breeds for pretty feathers.. Honest assessment, The best rollers in SC are the pure Birmingham rollers,, everything in SC rolls because of pure rollers. Not the other way around.. I have had some pure SC birds from Carl Hardesty, back in the late 80's..)))
If you are going to post something disrespectful, please don't. If you are uncomfortable with the questions, I understand and will not press for answers. Again, I do not wish to continue a debate or start an argument, I am just asking and hope you can provide respectful answers to the questions.
Bob
Bob, I hope you find my answer's respectful.. I hope you understand what I'm about to say.. Sometimes it is hard to sound respectful about a topic you have NO respect for.. I do respect all the people.. I have NO respect for Color breeding or birds bred and sold for odd colors factors and patterns and called Birmingham rollers. That is as honest and as respectful as I can be.. I don't think I'm telling you anything you don't already know about me Bob.. Respectfully yours, Mongrel Lofts
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
394 posts
Jul 31, 2005
4:41 AM
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Kenny & Scott. If you are happy with what you are doing then continue to do whatever makes you happy.If your choice is to have a closed mind to any other possibillities then you can do so.
On the other hand Please allow us with Open minds to do what makes us happy.
Your ways is not hurting us and our ways is not hurting your ways.
We all enjoy the roller so what is the point.Remember how the dinosour became instinct.It bred itself out.LOL. David
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Slobberknocker
46 posts
Jul 31, 2005
7:07 AM
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Kenny, first I absolutely respect you and what you do. However, please show the same respect for others regardless of what they choose to do with their own birds. When I start paying your feed bill, I can start to criticize and disrespect what you do. But until you start paying my feed bill, don't criticize or disrespect what I do. I will say also that I do agree with some of what you say.
I do not fly and never have flown in competition. I must admit I am not really big on politics. I was a board member of several clubs over the years and I am just tired of it. I look at it this way: This great hobby does not need us, we need it and should show the due respect for it and it's participants no matter what they choose to do with their birds.
That said, I did join our local Roller club this year as well as the NBRC. Maybe one day I will decide to fly in competition, but not yet.
So, Kenny, let's just agree to disagree on some things and leave it at that. You do your thing, I'll do mine.
Scott, the reason I started this thread was because I have heard that the roll gene is not completely understood. I wanted to see if anyone know of any connection between the roll gene and the color/pattern gene (any color, not rare colors).
As far as the good producing birds, I have to agree with you after thinking about it a while. If you have an exceptional stock cock (or hen), they will produce a higher number of good birds in the air regardless of what they are bred to. However, these birds are very rare and, as you alluded to, are the foundation of the loft and invaluable. These birds may not be the best spiiners though. I am starting to think that, from a good solid family of birds, some of the birds that maybe are too frequent, too deep, etc. should be given a chance in the stock loft. Some may be culling these exceptional stock birds because of what they don't do in the air.
Bob
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www.slobberknockerlofts.com
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motherlodelofts
222 posts
Jul 31, 2005
7:58 AM
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Bob, if overall you are lacking somethging like frequency or depth then I would I wuld agree with you , depending on the bird though, and that absoulutly must being making every effort to keep up with the kit.
As for the prepotent birds,yes they are rare,and also they come in various degrees.
But without a doubt my best producers run tight around such birds.
As for understanding the roll gene , of coarse it isn't understood plus on top of it you have outside influances dictating it such as physical and mental weaknesses and strengths,stimulation ect. And on top of it these outside influances are not constant. The roll gene has absoulutly nothing to do with qaulity, outside influances dictate that and also go deeper than what I wrote above, type,muscle,balance,feather,proportion,bone structure,diet ect. ect. ect. are what dictates qaulity , frequency and depth.
"Trying" to understand these outside influances to some degree and trying to get qaulity,depth and frequency in the proper balance is the real key to breeding and flying topnotch birds
Bob, I consider understanding the roll gene itself is like trying to understand a woman, a big dark black hole, and understanding it is meaningless without understanding everything else in the makeup of a true qaulity Birmingham Roller.
Just my opinion
Scott
PS Dave I have been staying out of these things for a while now, and I certainly saw no reason to step into this one
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jul 31, 2005 8:36 AM
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Ballrollers
57 posts
Jul 31, 2005
8:17 AM
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Scott, Please don't tell me that understanding the roll is like trying to understand women. Three strikes-I'm out, in that arena. Sure hope I can do better with rollers! Cliff
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Ballrollers
58 posts
Jul 31, 2005
8:17 AM
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Scott, Please don't tell me that understanding the roll is like trying to understand women. Three strikes-I'm out, in that arena. Sure hope I can do better with rollers! Cliff
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motherlodelofts
223 posts
Jul 31, 2005
8:38 AM
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Cliff the beauty of rollers though is that they don't want half of your assets if things don't work out.
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
395 posts
Jul 31, 2005
8:45 AM
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Scott.For someone as Hard Headed as you are(jokin) you have been doing real good.LOL. David
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Alan Bliven
215 posts
Jul 31, 2005
11:34 AM
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Some pick their rollers the way they pick their women.. painted up on the outside but no heart on the inside.
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Alan
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Mongrel Lofts
18 posts
Jul 31, 2005
2:08 PM
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Some pick their rollers the way they pick their women.. painted up on the outside but no heart on the inside.
Alan
Hey Alan,
WOW, what words of wisdom.. Him that have ears to hear, Let him hear.. Mongrel Lofts
Last Edited by Mongrel Lofts on Jul 31, 2005 2:15 PM
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Pheonix101
1 post
Aug 02, 2005
10:46 AM
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will my cock breed with my hen with a broken wing
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