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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Can you fool feeders?
Can you fool feeders?
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Ally Mac
54 posts
Aug 08, 2005
2:29 AM
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Can you fool feeders into their feeding cycle?
I have been lent some Dexter birds and want to make the most of them before the end of the season.
Would this work?
When the good birds lay I put dummies under the feeders, the reason being I wouldn’t put the good eggs under till I knew the feeders would sit them.
The worry would be when it comes the time to feed the squabs, would 18days sitting get the feeders conditioned to supply crop milk etc? or is there more to it?
I have had problems getting the feeders to lay at the same time as the stock birds, It was fine for the first round but after that things got a bit higlty piglty.
All advice appreciated.
Al.
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big al
74 posts
Aug 08, 2005
7:22 PM
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Ally Mac,
18 days is plenty of time for crop milk development. However I wasn't sure I got a clear understanding of your entire question?
I'll start from here...
If you're going to use pumpers (Foster's) It's better if they lay at the same time or within a couple days of the main pair.
It's a good idea if the main pair is the first to lay because your pumpers may be the type who stay on a strict time clock when sitting eggs. Some pairs will abandon eggs after 23-24 days!! Others will sit til the eggs grow hair, fins and poka dots!! ( Just kidding. Not quite that long.)
So what you really want are the pumpers getting eggs that the main pair has either been incubating for a few days, or eggs that you've been holding for a few days and this will insure that the main pair's eggs hatch maybe even a few days earlier than the pumper's eggs would have to prevent abandonment.
Also just a little FYI... Make sure the pumpers are strong and healthy. I've seen guys complain about birds that didn't come out looking as great as the parents or kind of weak etc... The parents have the genetics yes, but the fosters are pumping those babies with whatever is in their own systems. So in terms of physical health make sure your pumpers are up to the task before trusting them with the good uns'!!
Hope this all makes sense.
See you in the roll...
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Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
Last Edited by big al on Aug 08, 2005 10:09 PM
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Shaun
73 posts
Aug 09, 2005
12:43 PM
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I'm going to be big on fosters in the not-too-distant future, so I've been keen to learn as much as I can, using my 3 pair of crap birds as a breeding experiment. I've found that the big advantage of my buying these sub-standard rollers (not that I knew that at the time!), is watching the whole mating/egg laying/egg hatching/rearing process. I've allowed these 3 pairs to breed just as they want to, so I can observe how the respective pairs will prove to be as fosters for decent youngsters.
It does seem that there's an assumption that any old pair of not-so-good rollers (or other pigeons, for that matter) will serve as fosters. Well, in my brief experience, that's not the case.
One of my crap pairs had an egg hatch and they duly fed the squab. But, their other egg hatched only two days later, and they kicked the baby out of the nest straightaway, so it died. I'm sure if they'd fed the second one, it would have been OK. They've been as dodgy ever since. They'll abandon eggs if they don't hatch within a day or two of the 18 day window. I wouldn't entrust anything decent to this pair. It's funny; they love all the canoodling and nest-making bit. They sit the eggs just fine. But, when it comes to the nitty gritty of raising younsters, they ain't up to it. Lesson learned.
Conversely, another of my crap pairs, had their second youngster from one round, hatch days apart from the first youngster. They continued to sit the second egg and when if finally hatched, they did everything they could to ensure it caught up with the first baby - and they succeeded. It was evident for some time afterwards, how small one was in relation to the other, but it didn't matter - each got its due ration. By 4 or 5 weeks old, there was nothing between them in size. All credit to the parents.
So, the criteria for fosters should be stringent: you're going to entrust them with important eggs. Are they up to the job? Oh, I've just had another thought - recently I wanted to experiment with a third egg - if I slipped an extra egg (from another pair) under a different pair, which were already sitting two eggs (all laid within a couple of days of each other), would they sit the third, or push one of them out of the nest. No problem - my now-proven good parents, were the same ones which had no problem with the third egg.
My lesson has been to experiment with crap birds to see how they pan out as fosters.
Shaun
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Mount Airy Lofts
32 posts
Aug 09, 2005
6:13 PM
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I don't see why not. I do it all the times. I would put dummy eggs under most of my foster pairs and they'd raised those eggs and youngs as like they'd laid those eggs themselves.
The key is to know which pair is willing to sit on those dummy eggs and which won't. After you find them, they will sit on them every time.
The key is not to let your birds see you place the eggs under neath them while they are sitting on the nest. Tricking them is the easy part. Getting them to be good parents is what makes and breaks foster pairs.
Thor
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fhtfire
176 posts
Aug 09, 2005
7:42 PM
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Just a little more info...you do not have to use crap birds as fosters...you can use your good breeders too. I do not keep any crap birds around...if they are crap...they are culled. Well...I am kind of a liar...I have one hen that was the first to ever hatch on my property and I keep her around because she was the first...she is also the bird that flys with my young birds and keeps them in the air...anyway...back to my other thought....I run a pretty tight ship...due to space...so If I pump...I use my good breeders as fosters.....one plus...is that I know that my good breeders are good parents. For example...I am done breeding with most of my stock birds....but I wanted to pump out of 4 pairs of another strain...so I am using my other breeders as fosters. I have a couple pair of breeders that have handled three squab with no problems.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Shaun
76 posts
Aug 10, 2005
12:17 PM
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Well, Paul, I'm pleased to hear that you do have some sentimentality - keeping that first bird of yours. Most of my initial birds and their offspring are useless, but I have the space to accommodate them, so they stay. Well, if they didn't, my wife and kids would kick up a stink. I just look at them all as a means of experimentation. The worst of my duff old birds, is a red grizzle the size of a small chicken. He's the horniest pigeon I've ever come across and certainly the most unfaithful. His missus watches him with amusement as he tries to hump every hen in the loft - and he often succeeds. He's got the deepest mating coo that you could imagine - think Barry White or Lou Rawls, then drop it an octave. But for all his annoying shagging, he's a fab parent. So, he stays as my top foster.
Shaun
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
410 posts
Aug 10, 2005
2:38 PM
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Paul.Reminds me of when a friend was here visiting and watching birds fly.He asked me if I could walk into my main breeding Loft and pick out 10 pair and start over.I told him I could let him go into my Foster Loft and pick 10 pair and I could start over.I too feel if I am going to feed something it may as well be good.I have almost as many pair I use for fosters as I do my main breeders.It takes a lot of stress off my main pairs not to have them raise all of their young.And with the mating of 4 hens to one cock I need a lot.LOL. David
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rollerpigeon1963
40 posts
Aug 10, 2005
10:27 PM
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Foster Birds!
I have used foster birds for 3 to 4 years now and have had great success. Now using your good birds is a plus. I will tell you how I did it. I kept two lofts. One was a loft with 16 individual breeding cages in it. They were 4 foot wide. 2 foot deep and 18 inches tall. They were stacked where I could keep three pairs in each stack. there was a plastic tray between the cages to catch the dropping. Now I also had a open loft which I used for my fosters. This loft was a 12 x 16 open loft with an outside flight built on the back. I housed around 30 pairs of birds in this building. Now these birds in this building wasn't junk. They were either birds that I didn't want to loose to the hawks during lock up time. Or birds I didn't want to resettle after moving to our new house. Now I usually bred around 10 to 12 pairs. And if I used 10 pairs I would have 30 pairs in the foster loft, a 3 to 1 ratio. Now I would pair all the birds around the same time. So that most would lay around the same time. Once my breeders lay their eggs I would pull the eggs and place them under a foster pair and throw away the foster birds eggs. Then throw away the other foster birds eggs in the open loft. So that way all the birds would be on the same cycle {Laying}. The when the breeders lay a second round I would place there eggs under another foster pair that laided the same time. Or if the foster pair laided a day earlier. So now you have two rounds from the same pair under two different foster parents. Now for the third round I would let the breeders raise their own and any of the foster birds in the open loft. This way the breeders keep the parental care by raising one round out of three. And if there is any foster pairs that raise a few then that would be a plus. By using the 3 to 1 ratio it is easier to have the foster birds ready for the breeders eggs most of the time. Sounds hard but is pretty easy once you get everything worked out.
Brian Middaugh
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
411 posts
Aug 11, 2005
2:13 AM
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Brian.Very good post.Sounds very much like my way.LOL.I agree it does sound hard but it is very easy once you do it the first time.I usually wait untill the last round before letting my breeders set their round.Which is mostly 5 rounds.
For anyone who don,t know a Hen is born with whatever amount of eggs she will lay in her lifetime.By fostering her eggs each year she will quit laying at an earlier age than if allowed to raise her own young.David
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Shaun
81 posts
Aug 11, 2005
10:10 AM
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Brian and David, I see the system you've adopted is one of the tried and tested and, as you suggest, it's not rocket science. However, do you have any experience (or anyone else, for that matter), of what we call the 'bull' system? Going back to Al's original mention of his Dexter birds, Graham himself has used this method and George Mason uses it all the time.
What I would like to know is the advantages and disadvantages of each system.
It seems, from what I've gathered, that a spankingly good cock is one to be revered and bred from as much as possible - hence the bull system of putting that cock to a number of hens. The hens obviously also have to be very good, but it does seem that the cock is the dominant factor. So, with the bull system, the cock spends time with each hen, enough for each to be 'fooled' into thinking that the cock is 'her man'. He's clearly a bygamist, but his many hens don't know it. The end result is many (hopefully good) offspring for not a great many parent birds.
My initial reaction when I first read of the bull system (others call it polygamy), is how you get the hen to sit the eggs constantly and then feed the youngsters, when her man, is only at home for brief periods. From my own observations of breeding, whilst the cock spends less time sitting the eggs, he more than makes up for it in feeding the youngsters. So, you would have thought that a cock bird just popping in to say hello from time to time, would not be enough to stop the hen abandoning the eggs or the young. But, this system definitely works.
The viable alternative is the more usual fostering system which does involve a lot more birds for a similar number of eggs. Here, we have proper pairs of birds behaving in a totally predictable manner, without the upset of men disappearing all the time!
So, with me wanting to keep an open mind, I would be interested in hearing from anyone who's tried both systems and come down on one side or the other.
Shaun
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rollerpigeon1963
41 posts
Aug 11, 2005
5:13 PM
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Shaun,
My good buddy John Bender used a poly set-up that you were talking about. If you go to John's website
http://rollerpigeon1963.tripod.com/john.htm you can see his setup for poly breeding. But with the poly breeding he also used fosters to care for the eggs and care for the babies. The cock was placed in the large cage. And he would introduce a different hen every few hours and place the other hen back into her own hole. A pretty labor intensive job. this will allow the hen to be tread by the cock and then placed back into her own little section. Once she lay's her second egg he then places them under a foster pair to hatch and care for the squeekers. This type of breeding is pretty labor intensive. And still need to have the fosters to care for the Squeekers. So you have to think how much time you have to work with this program and still have the fosters on the same cycle as the breeders.
Hope this help with your question.
Thanks your good friend Brian Middaugh
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Ally Mac
55 posts
Aug 12, 2005
2:26 AM
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I was sent a link months ago for the Bull system.
Basically the hen is paired up with her mate in the nest box but separated by a dowel partition. They are kept like this for several days to get them keen. The good cock is then introduced to the loft floor and the first hen is let out. Apparently only half an hour is needed for the cock to tread each individual hen, possibly giving him a wee rest occasionally.
After the hens are treaded the partition is taken down and they carry on as normal with their selected step fathers. I cannot remember the time scale for this or whether it is worth letting them go again just to be sure.
I shall try and find the link to the article, it was put a lot better than above and I may not have the details correct. I intend to use it next spring to make the most of my new stock as well as feeders.
Al.
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Shaun
84 posts
Aug 12, 2005
11:50 AM
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Brian, your description is almost exactly what Graham Dexter related to me a couple of months ago. However, like Al, I've read elsewhere of a different system. I'm trying to rememember where I saw it, but it escapes me.
The principle goes along these lines:
You put, one cock in with a number of hens. There are no other birds about to distract this setup. Apparently, without fail, the cock will end up treading each and every hen - and I think this is the most relevant part - each and every hen is fooled into thinking that the cock is hers. This means she will sit the eggs (in her own nest box) and raise the young virtually on her own. It seems that so long as the cock is omnipresent, each hen can be relied upon to sit the eggs and feed the young.
The article or comments which I read, acknowledged that the cock would probably have a favourite hen and would likely contribute to the fatherly duties with that particular bird. leaving the other hens with a much greater share of the sitting/feeding responsibility.
It was this system, I was particularly interested in hearing about. It sounds like there's some skill involved, but if it was reliable, it would cut out a lot of other birds in the breeding process.
Shaun
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rollerpigeon1963
42 posts
Aug 12, 2005
1:14 PM
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Shaun,
There is some that does it where the hen does it all. But think about it for a second! Are the babies going to be as healthy as if there were two feeding and watering. What effect will it have on the hen raising them on her own. Will the stress level make the hen quit laying before her time? I couldn't see doing that to the birds. Just don't seem right or healthy. Just my own opinion, Because there is a reason why the cock was made to care for the young. Is the birds worth more than that to put them through it?
Brian Middaugh
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Ally Mac
56 posts
Aug 12, 2005
1:47 PM
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Found the article I was trying to describe, does make sense, no problems with one bird raising a round!
By Nigel Cowood
There has been much talk lately about the advantages of using a stud sire with lots of different hens. It would be truthful to say that many lofts house great pre-potent cocks capable of siring class quality offspring that win out of turn. It would be a great idea to get as many young from that one cock as possible, all aged to within a week of each other, thus starting life in the young bird section as a team.
This can be quite easily done, and the results can transform your yearly performances dramatically. The number of young obtainable from the stud sire in one round depends on what you wish to put into it. I successfully bred 10 young on my very first attempt, all weaned off together. On my second attempt I used a lot more hens (12) and weaned off a full round of 24 young, all half brother/sisters, all from the one single cock, using no more than an ordinary 12 ft x 8ft stock loft or section. Utilizing 12 hens; It is a good suggestion that the hens to be used have already laid and reared previously. The loft was fitted out with 12 ordinary widowhood nestboxes. (Just about any type of nestbox can be used so long as it is impossible for a cock to get in and tread the hen.)
I then selected on paper the hens in which I wanted to use. The twist here came at this point, as the cocks that were going to be paired to these hens to rear the young as there own would also be the sire's to the 2nd round of eggs. So when selecting which cock goes to which hen make sure you are thinking ahead, as the 2nd round young will also be (as individuals) half brother/sister to the first round off each hen.
The loft itself should be fitted with an aviary where the cocks can be locked out when the time comes. I fitted a simple 4ft x 2ft wire aviary and tacked an old curtain to the inside that could be dropped and secured with household drawing pins. In the aviary I placed a drinker and grit & mineral pots. So you have your pairings worked out and it is time to introduce the 12 cocks to there nestboxes. It does not matter which box they take, just allow enough time for them to get settled in. It is also a good idea to lock them into the aviary a couple of times to get them used to the idea.
DAY 1
On the day you are ready to proceed make sure that the hens have been well fed and watered. It will work a little better if you introduce the hens later rather than earlier in the day. Feed & lock the cocks into the aviary then place the hens in the locked half of the nestboxes of their selected cocks. If the hens are fit and ready to pair they will tell you so without a cock being present. It is a good sign that things will go easy when the hens are very amorous.
With the hens secure in their half of the box allow the cocks into the loft. They perform there usual stuff with plenty of billing between the bars of the partitioned box. There is not a chance that the cock can tread the hen. Leave the birds like this until morning.
Now is a good time for pen and paper, so make sure that you have a clipboard or such in the loft, with the ring numbers and box numbers for all the hens laid out. This will help you re-place the hens into the correct boxes until they are fully versed and keep good records of the days to come.
DAY 2
The first thing that I check as I walk in the loft is that all the hens are still in their boxes, none having escaped previously. This will be the first item on the agenda every morning for the next few days. If any hens have escaped it is not a problem at this stage but you must remedy the situation and prevent it happening again as it is vital to the purpose of your programme. Feed the cocks and lock them in the aviary with their own drinker. Once secure you can allow the hens freedom of the loft to eat and drink, pickstones etc. As each hen returns to a box (hopefully its own) lock her in. When all the hens are back in their boxes let the cocks come back in. you will get a feel for how things are going at this point. The cocks should rush to their boxes spinning and cooing. Repeat this again at some stage of the day, allowing the hens a chance to stretch their wings, eat & drink and find their own box. You can also fit little drinkers to the nestbox if you wish.
DAY 3 and DAY 4
Exactly the same as day 2.
DAY 5
This is the day to introduce the stud cock. The cock I used was 10 years old and I thought this could be a problem, but it turned out to be quite the opposite. This system can work with a cock that is already paired or sitting but you will get quicker results if he is un-paired.
Feed the cocks and lock them in the aviary. Release the hens to eat & drink etc. Lock all hens back in box. Bring in the stud cock and release him into the loft, he will strut his stuff and the hens will respond from the boxes. Allow the stud cock to roam around, he will fly upto many of the hens introducing himself. They will all respond to his attentions. After 10/15 mins release the hen from the first nest box, in no time at all she will get down for the cock. As soon as the deed is done get the hen back in her nest box and remove the cock. Mark down on your record sheet a note alongside the hens ring number that this occurred. Place the stud cock back in his own section. Rest for 30 mins and repeat with the 2nd hen. No need to allow the stud cock time to get his bearings, just place him in the section and release the next hen. Copulation will be swift, the chances are that all the hens saw the first procedure and are now competing with each other. Remove the stud cock and re-place the hen. Repeat this every 30 mins to cover the first 6 hens. Then give the stud cock a couple of hours rest, re-starting later in the day with the last 6 hens. Don't forget to mark down each hen in turn. If one of the hens refuses to mate make a note of it as she will be the first one the next day. When all is done make sure all the hens are secure and allow the cocks back into the loft from the aviary, they are none the wiser.
DAY 6
If all went well the previous day, do exactly the same procedure but this time in reverse, starting with the hen that was last the day before. Not forgetting that the hens must be well fed etc. before you commence.
DAY 7
Exactly the same procedure as day 6.
DAY 8
Now depending on the hens you are using you could be getting eggs at this stage. If so, I suggest you concentrate on any hen that has not laid as it is my experience that once the hen has laid she will have nothing more to do with the stud cock, (sounds about right!!) Carry on with the procedure until all the hens have laid. But be warned, I have never known a hen that has already laid her 1st egg to allow the stud cock to tread her again, so the theory of 2nd egg fertilisation needs looking at.
At this stage I allow all the cocks into the loft (but no contact) whenever possible to see that their hens have laid. As soon as the hen lays her 2nd egg I open the box and allow the cock to enter. Many of them rush in and instantly sit the eggs, no matter what time of day it is. Once all the hens have laid you can treat the section with ordinary everyday management. The cocks will have no problem believing that the eggs are their own and will sit normally. Let them sit 4/5 days and then check the eggs are full. If you find that any are infertile you can check your records to see if there is a reason for this. When I used 12 hens every single egg hatched using just this method, ending up with 24 young birds that all resembled each other in various ways. If you paired up correctly in the first place you will now be able to let these cocks and hens lay a 2nd round in the normal fashion.
I agree this method can take up some time, but the wise amongst you will plan this carefully to fall on a weekend or a holiday. It is well worth the trouble and does not take up any more time in respect of days.
I just had this published in the British Homing World and thought it could be of interest to others.
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Shaun
85 posts
Aug 12, 2005
2:11 PM
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Brian, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I've enjoyed watching the natural pairings amongst my birds and what they go on to do to lay eggs and make and rear babies. When I heard of this alternative approach, my immediate reaction was: How do you keep fooling the hens? And, even if you can, is this a good way to do things? Even the more sophisticated approach which Al's just posted, still relies on the cocks coming back into the scheme of things to do their part.
It seems there's no quick alternative to good old fostering.
Shaun
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
340 posts
Aug 12, 2005
9:17 PM
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Hello Shaun, check out the Polygamous Breeding table published in the May/June 2005 NBRC bulletin starting on page 89. Very detailed and the step by step instructions are presented in a very organized fashion.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Shaun
86 posts
Aug 13, 2005
1:55 AM
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Thanks, Tony, but I don't have access to that here in England. Is there any means of the article being pasted into a post?
Shaun
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
415 posts
Aug 13, 2005
3:49 AM
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Tony.That is a good polygamy system but the way I do it I can have 8 eggs in 10 days and then the process starts over again and in 10 more days (approx.) 8 more eggs.The system that you spoke of that Tom Monson uses takes 45 days to get 8 eggs wheras I have 16 eggs in 20 days.I am using 4 hens where he is only using 3.This is if I understood his method and chart.
The way I do it you have to have a lot of Fosters and unless you do it won,t work for most fancier's.
This Spring I am going to try 8 hens using my method to the same Cock.That is if I and my old Cock(age 10) make it thru the Winter.LOL. David
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big al
87 posts
Aug 13, 2005
10:08 AM
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Hi David,
I'd love to see your system!
Also... Did you ever get the e-mail I sent you?
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Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
418 posts
Aug 13, 2005
10:47 AM
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Big Al. I thought I had posted the way I do it but that was on our site the NPRA.Here is the way I do it.David
What I have is 12 compartments that are 2 foot x 2 foot 2 foot.All wire floors but in each cage I have half the floor covered with a piece of plywood that I set the nest bowl on and they also use it to tread on.Seems to work better than the wire floor.There is 3 rows of 4 in each row.I also have a plywood divider between each cage.
I just put 4 hens to the row and move the cock to each hen.You can do this even with seperate breeding cages.I have had good sucess as long as I moved the cock and not the hen.If you have an exceptional cock this is an easy way to get a lot of young from him.But you need plenty of fosters for doing this and you have to keep good records of who is doin what.
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big al
88 posts
Aug 13, 2005
11:13 AM
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David What's up!
Hey thanks for the info.
Also I tried sending you an e-mail last week. I guess it didn't go through?
Look on our past posts at...
Aug. 10th "Ken Whites Roller Family from England"
I posted what I e-mailed you there also.----------
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
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