big al
82 posts
Aug 12, 2005
8:41 PM
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Hey everybody,
I've heard different things...
Do you consider any white bird, self or with markinga a Grizzle period?
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Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
108 posts
Aug 12, 2005
8:57 PM
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Al, can you be more specific?
I assume you mean any almost white roller? Since I don't believe we have recessive white in rollers, most near all white rollers are homozygous grizzle. Straight pie bald alone won't make them all white, but near white with a bell neck marking. Some ash red bar grizzles will appear all white in the air.
Brian.
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big al
85 posts
Aug 12, 2005
9:00 PM
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Hi Brian,
Yes any white or almost white roller regardless of markings. Grizzle?
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Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
339 posts
Aug 12, 2005
9:02 PM
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I would like to ask: will all grizzle to grizzle matings ultimately produce all white?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
109 posts
Aug 13, 2005
12:07 AM
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Well then Al I would have to say no, not all Grizzle. Grizzle is a factor which can contribute to turning a bird heavy in white feathering. Double factor grizzles can be nearly all white. But if they have a standard marking such as showing checking or bars on the shield or solid color in some areas in combination with white such as a baldhead or bellneck-marked, then no, that would be pie bald. You can have a pie-bald marked grizzle too. I raised a blue grizzle bellneck hen last year from a pair of badges.
Tony, yes, eventually grizzle x grizzle will produce birds with more and more white. But often you won't see this happening until you start putting a homozygous grizzle into the pairings.
When I was a teenager I got three pair of Paul Platz tortiseshell rollers. I bred them together for a couple of years and they got whiter and whiter. When I went into the service I gave them to a friend. A few years later when I returned, they were almost all near solid white (with a few colored feathers) and oddly enough, they were all pretty much roll downs...lol.
Brian.
Last Edited by MCCORMICKLOFTS on Aug 13, 2005 12:10 AM
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Velo99
62 posts
Aug 13, 2005
8:53 AM
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I have ten grizzles that I fly. Why?,you ask. Frequency. The family I have is pretty stable. Going pretty 20-30. I had one of my y/bs start hitting 30`s or deeper yesterday. Most are going ten-fifteen at least once a minute. I have no choice but to fly a young bird team this season. Gonna be interesting. Wasn`t there a thread on young bird teams,as well as 11 vs 20 bird kit for rookies?
I am adding some hard colors to the mix to slow them down and add some stiffness to the feathering. Grizzles are kinda fun to work with all of the different patterns and colors that come out in the course of breeding. If you breed griz to griz you will get almost white birds. Some little spots, usually in the stork pattern. I watch for the rolldowns and trying to breed away from the unstable character traits.I think I have enought decent genetic materials to work with. I have a lav higgins cock and a rec red turner hen. Both are y/b`s but looking good. They could be an integral outcross in the near future.
Overall I enjoy working with my griz`s.
v99
Last Edited by Velo99 on Aug 13, 2005 8:59 AM
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big al
86 posts
Aug 13, 2005
10:03 AM
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Hi guys,
Nice posts...Thanks.
Okay folks a couple more inquiries...
I've never worked with grizzles in the breeding loft although I love the beauty of them! In fact I'd like to get my hands on a couple of good looking ones to play with after I fly them out.
In the past I've flown some great ones given to me by my late buddy Bob Scott but ironically never bred with them and have not had one in my kits in the last 4 years since I've been back in the hobby!? I think they're beautiful and will probably try and purchase a couple of good ones from someone to have around.
Anyway back to the inquiries:
1. I've heard that white birds eventually roll down. What are your experiences?
2. I have a youngster I just weened from a project pair that's sort of a Dunnish /Chinchilla color? So far I haven't seen anything like it although it may change and show me something I'm more familiar with in a couple weeks. I can't describe it!
The baby weened in the clutch before it is solid white with tan or like a reccessive yellow in it's head only?!
Help a brotha' out...what are they? In fact I'll try and get photos of them on the site in the next couple days.
PARENTS...hen- white with a little grizzle in the neck .
cock- silver red barred
(color kind of washed out looking in cock)
Both parents great in the air by the way!
See you in the roll... ----------
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
416 posts
Aug 13, 2005
10:35 AM
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Al. Sounds like you Cock bird is Carrying the Reduced factor.This one will be a hen.David
Last Edited by Bluesman on Aug 13, 2005 10:36 AM
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Alan Bliven
220 posts
Aug 13, 2005
11:24 AM
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I was told that it's easier to produce all white homozygous grizzle if you are starting with red grizzles as opposed to black grizzles, is this true?
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Alan
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Velo99
63 posts
Aug 13, 2005
11:59 AM
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Hey Alan,
I don`t know about all of the other families but my reds are a ligher marked than the blue ones. Two hens I have are almost white with a few red spots in the stork marking. The blues are heavy griz with wild marked tails. The cock I used on these is a light marked blue stork het bred to a blue spread w/f hen with a touch of white on her head. They throw one griz and one blue spread or blue check. The reds are a homo hen bred to a red bar cock. I get med to lightly marked red stork griz chicks.
yits
v99
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
110 posts
Aug 13, 2005
12:40 PM
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Al wrote:
1. I've heard that white birds eventually roll down. What are your experiences?
No, that is not true. It depends on your family and how the corresponding use of grizzle will affect them and what the character was like of those birds that were used that were grizzle. One of my best birds is a red bar grizzle that never rolled until he was 14 months old and is a clean 40 footer.
2. I have a youngster I just weened from a project pair that's sort of a Dunnish /Chinchilla color? So far I haven't seen anything like it although it may change and show me something I'm more familiar with in a couple weeks. I can't describe it! The baby weened in the clutch before it is solid white with tan or like a reccessive yellow in it's head only?!Help a brotha' out...what are they? In fact I'll try and get photos of them on the site in the next couple days.
PARENTS...hen- white with a little grizzle in the neck .
cock- silver red barred
(color kind of washed out looking in cock)
Al, for your second question it ultimately impossible to give you an accurate answer without seeing the bird in question as well as the parents. What you are seeing is probably a spread ash red check expressing kite bronze and dirty. That would be my guess. Again, gotta have pics to be able to give you a straight answer.
Alan B. wrote:
I was told that it's easier to produce all white homozygous grizzle if you are starting with red grizzles as opposed to black grizzles, is this true?
For the most part yes. Ash red has a tendency to allow whatever modifiers are present to become amplified in comparison to blue or brown. Or so that is the way it seems. The grizzle we have in rollers is largely inhibited by the spread factor. This is why we end up with black pepperheads instead of black mottles. Mate two black pepperheads together and you will largely continue to get the same thing. But mate two ash red grizzles together and you will at some point get a darn near all white looking pigeon.
Brian.
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Shaun
87 posts
Aug 13, 2005
1:06 PM
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Brian - just a weeny question, to briefly go off at a tangent. When so many roller guys cull birds so readily and seemingly so quickly, what makes you hang onto a non-rolling bird for 14 months? I have a couple myself and I've been led to believe that a straight flyer isn't the best thing to have in a kit, as it has the potential to fly too fast and upset the rhythm of the rolling birds. However, I don't have much choice, given the small kit it's taken me so far to produce, so the straights are up there with the ones that do roll. Anyway, back to my question: Why did you persevere for so long, when others would have got rid long before.
Ta.
Shaun
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
419 posts
Aug 13, 2005
1:27 PM
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Al.I think I misread your post.After reading Brians post I went back and reread it.I thought you said they were white in the nest and then started turning.After reading your post again I think I was reading to fast.LOL.That is why I said that your cock might be carrying reduced,Sometimes reduced young will be white in the nest and then turn to another color.Sometimes it takes a year to develop into what color they really are. David
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
111 posts
Aug 13, 2005
3:29 PM
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Shaun, the reason I kept him around was because he was one of those birds that always flew in the middle of the kit and wasn't a problem at all, which can be rare for a cock. For a long time I really never paid any attention to him because I would spend my time watching the birds that were rolling. One thing I noticed later on was that when a large majority of the birds in the kit he was in were starting to perform together, he and a handful of others became the kit for the others to return to. He never flew fast and was never a hen chaser. He just kind of blended into the kit and never gave me a reason to move him out. Most of the times a bird like this will get cocky or start doing that pop-glide stuff which I don't like. After about a year, these are easy for me to cull. But when they really are no problem at all like this one was, I gave him some slack. By in large, he is a rare one in that regard.
I lost this kit in an overfly about two years ago and he was one of those that didn't return. About four months or so later he was sitting on the loft roof with a body like a racing homer. Someone was taking good care of him. After a short quarantine period I but him back in the new A-team and he was just like he use to be, and actually started rolling about three weeks after his return. He became the deepest roller I was flying and still was as good of a kitter and flyer as you could ever want.
And he is now stocked and was paired with his half sister after the WC qualifying was over. I might put him back up for the fall, or I might not. This is the only bird where I have disregarded the length of time it took him to come into the roll simply because every thing else about him is perfect. And his mother has produced rather early developers on just about every cock she has been mated to. So I believe it is in him to produce the same. One of his first offspring that is only about 3 months old is already flipping quite a lot. Ultimately if he doesn't work out in the breeding pen. I'll have no problem putting him back into the A-team to continue to impress me when he performs.
I might add that I keep a cull kit around. In this kit right now is a half sister to this cock from the same father. She was relegated to the cull kit after about 12 months because I wasn't seeing her do much rolling at all, but like her brother, is an outstanding kit bird. She is now ripping off 20 footers real nice, and if she keeps it up, will possibly become a competition kit bird in the near future.
These occasions are rare and definitely not the norm.
Brian.
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upcd
8 posts
Aug 21, 2005
2:47 AM
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A white without any markings is considered a self or pure white, but that doesn't mean there isn't a hidden color. I sometimes use these white or light grizzle to straighten up a mismarked bird. To refine a baldhed,saddle,whiteside, bellneck,body or tailmark. Also they come in handy for shapen color on your selfs as long as you know its color factor.
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Mount Airy Lofts
38 posts
Aug 21, 2005
11:06 PM
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All the white birds I have ever seen being bred from my family of birds are in my books considered Light Red Grizzles. Even tho some don't have any other feathers as young birds besides white and some have a flecking or two of Red or Lavender feather and moult out White self, they are still considered Light Red Grizzles. I don't know if there are pure whites like there are in Homers. Pure whites are suppose to be like spread, meaning both parents has to carry the gene.
All the pure whites in my family have been bred from any combonation of Grizzles. The most popular mating that will produce white self in my family is Tick x Red Bar.
If you asked me, I would consider pure whites - Grizzles... to be correct, Light Red Grizzle.
Thor
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