Alan Bliven
221 posts
Aug 13, 2005
11:32 AM
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Does anyone you know use rolldowns in their breeding program? If so, why? What are the results? I know many of the old timers used rolldowns, why did they do that? What were they hoping to add, depth? frequency?
Are there different types of rolldowns? What I mean is, is there different genes that make a rolldown? I noticed that some are hopeless rolldowns that are so full of roll they can't even fly 20 feet without rolling down and others will fly with the kit for a while then rolldown.
Could some just not have the ability to turn it off and others just have too much roll gene?
What about a Parlor? Is it just an extreme rolldown?
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Alan
Last Edited by Alan Bliven on Aug 13, 2005 11:34 AM
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Velo99
64 posts
Aug 13, 2005
12:05 PM
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Hey Alan,
To me rolldown equals cull without the hassle of popping a head and getting blood on my shoes. No way no how in the breeder pen. If a bird is a rolldown it is among the flying dead. Just a matter of time.
mtc yits
v99
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Alan Bliven
222 posts
Aug 13, 2005
1:23 PM
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I am asking to better understand the genetics of the roll gene. I'm not asking what you do with rolldowns.
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Alan
Last Edited by Alan Bliven on Aug 13, 2005 2:12 PM
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Bill C
2 posts
Aug 13, 2005
9:24 PM
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Hey Alan, I had a check cock that would thow a roll down every year. I get about one roll down in 25 young and usually that is three a ;year or so. Out of this check cock the others were some of the better rollers I had at the time so I bred from several of them. Then I would get a roll down out of the son of the check cocks too. But so far it has been just one out of four or five young birds flying again. SO my experience is the good and bad genes really pass along from generation to generation.
I would not breed from a roll down because of the ones I have seen crash violently to the ground no matter what they land on. It will definately come back to haunt a guy in the next few generations or sooner.
If you read Bill Pensoms book he talks about them as culls and says they are of no use in the breeding pen. He said we want to breed to those that can resist the roll even those that don't roll for the first year. So many posts could be answered by his book, but its good to ask and learn, I've asked alot over the past four years. Trial and error is always a good teacher if we listen and pay attention. Good luck in understanding to roll down gene. Bill C
Last Edited by Bill C on Aug 13, 2005 9:25 PM
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Bill C
3 posts
Aug 13, 2005
9:36 PM
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I forgot to mention something else. speaking of genes. The surest way to get bumpers and roll downs is to breed from birds that are early developers in their first year. Many guys want 5 month wonders because of the hawk problems we have. But they are the basis for getting too much roll in a gene pool. There is always an exception to the rule though. At times I just seem to quote Pensom all the time but I re-read his book three times and like the Bible I learn each time I study it. Bill C
Last Edited by Bill C on Aug 13, 2005 9:40 PM
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consett lofts
2 posts
Aug 14, 2005
3:52 AM
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hi alan
rolldowns are a must!!!!!!!!!
you must breed of rolldowns or you would end up with a loft full of high flying tipplers
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
420 posts
Aug 14, 2005
4:05 AM
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Bill.I too like to read the History of the rollers and all the great men who wrote books or articles.They had a lot of wisdom.However hardly any of them knew anything about the Genetic makeup of a roller.They bred and flew rollers by face value.If you look back over the past 50 years you can see when the genetic side started coming into play.Look at the whole world.Hasn,t it changed its way of thinking & doing things in the past 50 years.If we ever learn what causes a roller to roll the roller world will be changed forever.If it ever is discovered most of what happened in the past will just be history.If everyone stood still we would still be riding horses instead of cars.
You spoke of the 5 month wonders.The Hawks have played an important roll in the rollers thats for sure.What good is it in raising a roller that don,t come into the roll till after 9 month old and never live to see that age.Better to be able to enjoy the 5 month wonder for awhile.I feel that we are going to have to go this route if the Roller Hobby is to survive.Each year the predators are getting worse.
I got my first rollers from Bill Pensom in 1962 and still have an old line back to his breedings.They don,t come into the roll untill after 9 month old.Usually by this time the hawks have them so scared that they just go stiff and never seem to develop the roll to their potential.
I really like the rollers of this time period.They are far better overall than what I seen in the early years.However there is a lot more info on the feeding and flying of rollers now than there was back then.I never knew what a kit box was untill 5 years ago.We just open door flew them.
If I recall right Pensom said in one of his writings that "There was a use for every roller" or something like that.
He also said.(quote)"It is fortunate that we have a better way of thinking these days to help us with our problems;otherwise there would have been no progress in anything." This was said 47 years ago.
So many theorys have been proven different in the past 47 years due to Genetics.
On the other hand I am a firm beliver that History repeats itself.
Just my opinions at this time.LOL. David
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Velo99
65 posts
Aug 14, 2005
5:36 AM
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Sorry Alan,
I agree that one should get a rolldown occasionally. As we push our gene pool to the edge,occasionally one foot slips from the slippery slope of performance breeding and a genetic anomaly appears.
Rolldowns and stiffs,being polar opposites of each other, reflect the boundaries of our particular familes. To push these boundaries is to hopefully increase the performance of our breeding programs. I personally would back up a step in my program and analyze that particular branch of my family. Use percentages to find if it is an acceptable risk to breed from such a bird.
Sometimes it is one step forward and two steps back. Sometimes it is just,that,an anomoly. Continue on as usual. Personally I would not use a rolldown. I would attempt to add the desired trait from other avenues.
yits
v99
Last Edited by Velo99 on Aug 14, 2005 5:38 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
422 posts
Aug 14, 2005
6:06 AM
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V99. I think I should maybe clear up something so no one thinks that I breed from rolldowns all the time.Breeding from rollsowns and other crossing projects are a complete seperate thing from breeding from my main family/families of rollers.My main breeders are Hands Off,right down the middle breeding.I know what they are and do and don,t want anything added to upset the apple cart.LOL.
It is something on the side just for expermental purposes.If something should work then it is to my advantage.A lot of times things don,t work out the way I plan and I have to scrap the idea and try something else.
Unless someone has the luxury and the birds to try projects on the side then I agree they had better stick with the best they have to work with.David
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Mongrel Lofts
20 posts
Aug 14, 2005
8:39 AM
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David,
I have a couple questions..
1. Do you breed from roll downs in your main stock of birds? If not, why do you use roll downs in your project birds? I would think that using roll downs to try and make certain birds roll, shows a lack of confidence in the stock and will come back to bite the projects with huge numbers of unstable birds.
2. What has the genetics we have learned about rollers in this modern age,done to help us make better rollers than the old timers? Do you know of any genetics to date that has improved the roll in any way? Has genetics answered the question why a bird rolls down,, Has Genetics answered the question of why they roll? Has genetics answered the question of what makes a bird roll more frequently? I'm trying to figure out how genetics today is an advantage over the old timers way of stock sense. I'm trying to understand how the genetics you understand, helps you make faster, deeper, more stylish rollers, that roll in huge breaks more frequently. Please explain to me how genetics is improving the things that are most important to most roller breeders, making the ultimate spinners. This I'm truly interested in..
3. One other thing. If a bird is stable off a roll down project. Do you think your adding that lack of control to future generations off that bird when stocked? Are you not adding a fault you will spend the next many many generations trying to purge from you stock loft?
I know a lot of questions, but I'm trying to understand this thinking of using faults when we have birds that roll straight, fast, hard, frequent and often.. Why don't we breed from these birds and try to make more of them? If we want more of the best performance, doesn't it make sense to breed from only the best rollers that have all the attributes we are seeking?
I guess I just don't understand the genetics side of the roller. I would think that breeding from genes that injure, and make the roller useless on purpose, would be the first thing Genetics would teach us not to do when breeding better rollers.. I guess I have a lot to learn on this! I'm all ears on this topic.
Why is it a good thing to breed from bumpers and roll downs??
To me this logic fits kind of like this. I want to breed more frequent rollers, so I will stock the ones that don't roll or are seldom. Makes no sense at all to me. Mongrel Lofts
Last Edited by Mongrel Lofts on Aug 14, 2005 8:46 AM
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Alan Bliven
226 posts
Aug 14, 2005
9:01 AM
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Mongrel Lofts,
That's one question I am trying to find an answer to. Is the rolldown a control fault or is it that bird loses control because he has extra doses of the roll gene? That's why I wanted to ask someone that breeds from rolldowns. I know we all have an opinion but unless we've bred from rolldowns ourselves, how do we know for sure?
The same could be asked of the Parlor.
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Alan
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birdman
36 posts
Aug 14, 2005
9:38 AM
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Alan, I don't think than anyone knows the answers to your question.
However, I believe that anyone who is breeding from rolldowns are not seeing the big picture. Aren't we breeding for quality (velocity x style), depth, frequency, kitting, stability?
Which of these characteristics do the rolldowns add to the breeders gene pool that move the program forward? None!
And besides, a rolldown that actually survives must not be a very high velocity bird to begin with. If that's the best you've got then you should consider another family to work with.
Alan, I don't know about the genetic angle but my personal belief about a true rolldown is that it has too much depth AND velocity and can't overcome the force of the roll. It's A weak bird any way you look at it.
Russ
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Alan Bliven
227 posts
Aug 14, 2005
11:12 AM
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For the sake of understanding I'd like to hear the results from someone that has experimented with or even used rolldowns in their breeding program.
How do we know it's a fault that gets passed on to future generations if we've never experimented with it, used it or known anyone that has?
I'm not defending rolldowns, I'm just seeking knowledge of the roll gene.
I was told some have even used Parlors crossed into their rollers and the results were the F1's were rolldowns, but the F2's and F3's were stable.
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Alan
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
423 posts
Aug 14, 2005
2:38 PM
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Kenny.I think Alan pretty much answered why we have side projects.If no one ever breeds from such rollers how will anyone know for sure what will happen.
For you 1st question.No. I do not breed rolldowns back into my main breeders.To many unanswered questions to take a chance of a bad gene.
Question # 2. No. The roll gene is still an unanswered question.
Question # 3. I forget what you asked.LOL.I think you asked about adding a fault back into the loft.Yes I think you would be adding a fault if you put them back into your main breeding loft at this time.
Any side projects are just that and I have yet to proved to myself anything that would allow me to introduce anything back into my main breeding loft.
Projects of crossing different families have proved sucessful for the Hybrid Vigor rollers but that is for kit birds and Competition.
I feel that if the Roll Gene is ever fully understood it will be thru Genetic study.Just my opinion. David
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Mongrel Lofts
21 posts
Aug 14, 2005
3:42 PM
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Hi David,
I have a couple more questions about your opinion on roller genetics.. Thanks.
They had a lot of wisdom.However hardly any of them knew anything about the Genetic makeup of a roller.They bred and flew rollers by face value.If you look back over the past 50
years you can see when the genetic side started coming into playing.
((((( David, what do we do different now? What did the genetic side do for rollers when it started to come into play? What have we been able to do in rollers that the old timers couldn't do? Bottom line, tell us what genetics has done to improve the roller in the air. I can't honestly think of a thing.))))))
So many theory's have been proven different in the past 47 years due to Genetics.
((((( David, are these theory's about rollers? If so, what theory in performance has been proven different by using genetics? What do we now know about breeding better rollers, because of roller genetics? Thanks for your reply,, I'm behind on what genetics has done for rollers. Mongrel Lofts
Last Edited by Mongrel Lofts on Aug 14, 2005 3:44 PM
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motherlodelofts
227 posts
Aug 14, 2005
4:15 PM
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What the heck is the roll gene ? what these birds do is determined by "several" factors. I believe that you can get as complicated as you want about this so called "roll" gene.
But breeding top shelf birds have and allways will strictly evolve around the understanding of mental and physical weaknesses and strengths.
Which brings us back full swing to Rolldowns,a rolldown has a fault, that fault evolves around a "weakness", have I ever bred a rolldown ? NO , Why ?
Rolling is not a problem within my birds , they all roll to some degree , some roll like dog crap, some are short, some are seldom.
And then I breed some that have stability issues such as rolldown, chronic bumping,not kitting, ect.
And then I breed some that roll hard,deep, frequent and stable as can be, breeding these type of birds is where my concentration is and my top birds come out of such birds (hmmmm), breeding such birds evolves around a hint of understanding as far as physical and mental stengths and weakneses.
IF I was looking for something hotter the last place that I would look is at the bottom of the barral stability wise. I would go to a bird with a "slight" (hot but not to hot) stability issue that is at least out of cull status.
My goal is to breed the least amount of culls as possible.
Dave as far as the "every bird has a use" comment, it makes no sence what so ever unless you include fosters and cannon fodler for the hawks, my guess is that this statment has a meaning but not is as it is read, and if it's meaning was as it is read it would hold true to very very few lofts.
Without birds that can "handle" the roll you have nothing, rolldowns are on the furythest end of the spectrum as far as not being able to handle the roll. Personally if I am going to waste perch space on experments it will be on an unproven pair that best suits my ideal, rolldowns or other problem birds don't fall into this catigory. There is enough junk out there without purposly breeding more.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Aug 14, 2005 6:38 PM
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fhtfire
178 posts
Aug 14, 2005
4:49 PM
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Breeding out of a Roll Down! Man, I would not do it....you must have other birds to breed from? Scott summed it up perfect....A rolldown is obviously a fault...nothing good comes of a rolldown....They are always out of the kit...you have to cringe every time they come into land...they usually roll like shit...and seem to be bumped and bruised. Actually I just sent a roll down to the golden arches....It was not worth my time...and I have far better birds to chose from then a roll down. Remember...you want a breeder that is damn near perfect...or it should not be in the stock loft. I guess if that is all that you had to choose from...you could do it. Just my opinion...but I would never breed from a roll down.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
424 posts
Aug 15, 2005
2:39 AM
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Paul.You are right.A rolldown is a fault.How would you ever know what happens if you would never breed from one.You are just taking someone else's opinion that it is an absolute No No.
Where would the roller be today if the person who seen the first roll in a Tumbler would have said that is a fault and just kept culling this fault?
I feel that untill the ro gene is fully understood the field of experimenting is wide open.David
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motherlodelofts
230 posts
Aug 15, 2005
7:19 AM
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Dave please tell us what you know about this roll gene
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Aug 15, 2005 7:19 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
425 posts
Aug 15, 2005
8:01 AM
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Scott.I am only in my second year of studying Genetics.It would be useless to try and explain it to you with my limited knowledge.
I belong to this group of Genetic Nuts that has all the big boys in Genetics on it and I am sure they would be able to answer any questions you would have on the ro gene.Here is the link.Be looking for you there. David
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pigeongenetics/
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fhtfire
179 posts
Aug 15, 2005
8:32 AM
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David,
I know what you are saying...about that tumbler example...but we are way further ahead then trying to get the roll. My point is that I have better birds to pick from...then a roll down. What reason does it serve. Hey, everyone can do what they want to do with there birds....I am just telling you what I would do. I would not breed from a rolldown...I have other birds to pick from. I know that Pensom said something in his book about roll downs....but that was 50 or 60 years ago. Pensom would shit rubber nickels if he saw the birds of today and how many good birds and fanciers out there. A lot has changed since he wrote his book....More good birds out there now...so why breed from a roll down.
If you had two champion dogs and a dog with three legs and a hunch back from a genetic defect...what would you breed from....I mean this is not brain surgery. I would breed from the champion. But...I have said it 100 times...your loft...your feedbill....you can breed your birds to a chicken...I could care less. Common sense just tells me that I am trying to breed away from faults....would you breed a non kitter....or how about a real slow sloppy roller. Don't get me wrong...I try some different things to see what happens....That is why I have an Andalusian cock and a Campbell hen...to see what would happen...difference is...they are two good birds....just my 2 cents...LOL!
rock and ROLL
Paul
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
344 posts
Aug 15, 2005
9:17 AM
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To All, genetics is useful for educating and making better progress with the stock we have. By using the concept of genetics in understanding the roll trait, which we call the Ro gene, we can begin having discussions, proposing theories and testing them.
While “genetics” does not “do” anything, it’s our understanding of it as a concept and its implications that makes genetics valuable.
It allows us to explain why some family’s have it (the roll) and others do not, why proper selection of stock is so important and why line-breeding is a successful in developing a roller family.
When a new comer enters the hobby he wants anything that rolls, his first rollers are often not very good. After some time, he begins to understand that there is a difference amongst rollers and that this is best understood through using the concept called genetics.
Perhaps genetics explains why so many old-timers have said there are better birds today than before…
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
426 posts
Aug 15, 2005
9:54 AM
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Thanks Tony.Good Post.David
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consett lofts
3 posts
Aug 15, 2005
12:21 PM
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hi to all who are interested in ROLLDOWNS in the stock loft !
i live in englant, and have been keeping birmingham rollers for about 10 years now, i put my first ROLLDOWN in to my stock loft 8 years ago,and ive never looked back ! my birds con roll 20 to 60 ft with lots of style, speed,and quality. just because a bird is a ROLLDOWN it dosent mean it will breed rolldowns all the time for you. dont get me wrong i do still get young birds that rolldown now and then, but dont we all?
try it you have nothing to loose !
yours in sport and friendship
ROSS !!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Alan Bliven
229 posts
Aug 15, 2005
2:11 PM
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Ross... Finally we get someone that has used rolldowns.
That was my question to begin with. I wanted to hear from someone that actually knew what they were talking about from experience and not hearsay. Why is it a given fact that rolldowns will ruin your stock when not one opinionated person here but Ross has ever used rolldowns or known anyone that has?
My reason for asking is to better understand the RO gene... what is the best way of getting the gene into a breed to create a new breed of roller? For example the North American Highflying Roller was originally created by crossing an Oriental with a Birmingham. The progeny were highflying deep rollers valued by many of that time. Would you use frequency, deep rollers, rolldowns or Parlors?
At least we haven't heard many of these macho, blood and gore stories in this thread of what they do with their rolldowns. ;)
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Alan
Last Edited by Alan Bliven on Aug 15, 2005 2:15 PM
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rollerpigeon1963
44 posts
Aug 15, 2005
2:21 PM
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Alan,
Rolldown is a fault with that certain bird. Like webbed toes it dont hurt the bird but its there. It's not natural but do you keep breeding towards it? Just have to ask
Brian Middaugh
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spade_drain
21 posts
Aug 15, 2005
2:23 PM
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for all u experimental roller wat happen if u get a cock=rolldown and bred with a hen=moderate hen 10 -15 feet wat will the offspring be?
will the offspring rolldown or will it be able to control itself in rolling process and if it control itself will it roll deep?
jef
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
113 posts
Aug 15, 2005
3:44 PM
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Jef, a few years ago I mated a super fast hen that was no doubt destined to become a true roll down. A friend was flying her and said she was just plain too hot. I mated her to a cock that had never produced a roll down, mostly shorter birds. The results were six offspring. Four rolled down killing themselves. One was an incredible roller to watch, but had days when she would hit if she rolled any lower than 40 or 50 feet from the ground. And one was a good 20 footer that I am still flying some 3 years later. That test resulted in 1 out of 6 good ones. Not very good odds.
One of my best producing hens I got as a squeaker from Danny Horner. This hen came in real early and did her best to hit everything in the yard she could. Two different times I put her away for two weeks, then reflew her. Both first times back out on her first roll she would roll down. I was going to cull her but forgot about it and just tossed her in the hen pen. A few months later I thought I would try her again. She was fine and rolled better and better every time out. A solid baseball for 30-40 feet. If I flew her too much, at some point when coming down she would hit. I took a gamble and put her on a good cock that has never thrown a roll down. The result was some damn fine rollers that seldom, if ever, had issues with hitting and only one out of about 12 actually killed itself, a mistake it made when trying to land. That hen is my #1 hen in that family now and I wouldn't trade her for nothing. Two of her daughters are also stocked and one of the hens has produced two really fine rollers this year.
I wouldn't breed from a true, no control roll down ever again. I don't need to. I have what I need in the gene pool. In the two tests, one test worked out. One clearly didn't. Conversely, I have bred more roll downs from birds that were just good rollers than I ever did from either of those two matings.
Personally I am not curious about the RO gene. As long as my birds roll and I believe I have some management over that roll, that is all that matters to me. I don't believe that having some understanding of how the RO gene works will provide any benificial insight into producing better rollers. There are simply way too many variables involved. We have yet to fully understand the nuances that surround what we think we know about why a bird rolls.
My recommendation would be to not concentrate on the invisible gene, but pay attention to the obvious things that contribute to control. A roller's performance is based entirely around control, or lack thereof in the case of a true roll down. Harness the control and you harness the roll.
Brian.
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Ballrollers
59 posts
Aug 15, 2005
3:46 PM
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Scott, I have seen you ask that question a lot. Isn't the "Ro gene" merely an abbreviated term used to denote the series of genetic traits and factors that produce rolling? I have a related question: Does depth=lack of control? In other words, at what point is depth a control issue for the bird? How about the 100 ft. spinner? When I was a kid we bred American Rollers. 60 ft. rolling was commonplace. We always bred depth to depth (didn't know much about quality back then). But we knew that breeding two dishrag rollers was more likely to produce a rolldown as opposed to two tight spinners with depth. You can imagine that breeding two 100 footers will produce some roll downs, but like has been said, don't we all produce rolldowns? YITS Cliff
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motherlodelofts
233 posts
Aug 15, 2005
5:03 PM
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Cliff that is what I love about these birds , what they are capable of and why they do is extreamly complex, but only as long as they can handle it,if they can't handle it and hold it together physically and mentally then the amazment pretty well disapears for myself as then they are nothing but Jerrys Kids.
Allan you seemed frustrated about people commenting about rolldowns that havn't actually bred them.
Keep in mind that Rolldowns are on the low end of the stability scale, most of us has bred birds further up that scale but still on the problematic side and learned that problem birds are likely to breed problem birds , the mate to such such birds are going to be a huge factor in the outcome.
Take a cold bird that is exceptionaly strong mentally and physically, what you will most likely is birds all over the board , put that rolldown on a hot bird and more than likely they will plow dirt.
Of coarse there is nothing cut in stone here. I have had families that have bred all over the board and basicly they are weak families.
Cliff yes stabilty and extream depth go hand in hand and you will see it by them fighting the roll trying to come out.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Aug 15, 2005 5:10 PM
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Velo99
67 posts
Aug 15, 2005
5:29 PM
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I am going to add my two cents again.
The point we detractors were trying to make is this. Why would one want add a possible defect into their breeding program? I am just starting so I need every advantage I can get. I am afraid of making a wrong move at this point.
Another thought is the old adage marginal rollers do not make bad breeders. This is what Russ and Brian both experienced. If one is to attempt such a mating, the percentages would not seem to be in the favor of the breeder. I also feel it couold be due to the length of time it takes for a particular bird to "come in" or stabilize its performance.
A variety of factors could affect the success of a rolldown breeding.
mtc yits
v99
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
427 posts
Aug 15, 2005
5:48 PM
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V99. The point I keep trying to make but seems to go unheard is that any breeding from Rolldowns or other faults should be done as a side project.If you are just starting please stay with the tried and proven methods.Don,t even think about trying side projects if you are just starting.The rollers are complicated enough as it is.You will find yourself scratching your head with just the basic things in rollers. David
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birdman
38 posts
Aug 15, 2005
6:01 PM
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Velo,
Correction: You mean that 'Ross' breeds from rolldowns. NOT Russ.
Thanks,
Russ
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J_Star
24 posts
Aug 16, 2005
5:28 AM
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Hi List,
I think if you don't produce roll downs, means that you don't have heat in your birds. I have not breed from a roll down but I will not hesitate if I have to. In Pensom's era, they mated roll downs with other stable birds to create hot rollers. I truely think that is how they, in time, came to achieve respectable and active rollers. The ones we all wish to have and if we have um we brag about um. Not every roll down is really you can breed from. I think there are the stupid roll downs and the so-so roll downs. They pack allot of heat and you can use them to get some of that heat in your future birds and cull the roll down offspring. There is a use to every bird if you can plan and have a strategy, just like putting your cards at a poker game.
I had roll downs that they don't want to fly because they know if they go 50 feet up they will roll down hard and I had roll downs that roll but can not adjust their depth when close to the ground and I had some bumpers. The first is a roll down that is too hot for any breeding loft, the second will have a certain place in the breeding loft if needed be, and also the third could be used to add certain heat to new generation of rollers.
You can breed your best to best, but the offspring will never be better than their parents, and if you tell me they can, then you are defying genetics. To add more heat and other factors without an outcross with other families, then I believe that you can use hotter birds when needed.
Please, this is my opinion only about this subject. I've read allot of materials from the old timers, and most if not all said that they used roll downs on occasions but don't make a habit of it.
Ken Easley has an article on his Web page called 'Working the Genetic Angle' that is very interesting. The link is:
http://www.jackhammerbreaks.homestead.com/files/Working_the_genatic_angle.htm
Bottom line is that I will use certain roll down in the breeding loft if I needed to. Once you develop heat and control way beyond what you allready have in your loft, then use the offspring as future breeders.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Aug 16, 2005 5:37 AM
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consett lofts
4 posts
Aug 16, 2005
1:31 PM
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hi all !
nice one jay
not all ROLLDOWNS go in my stock loft,
my best stock cock a.e.r.c.781/97 did not become a ROLLDOWN untill he was 2 year old ,as a young bird and allso a yearling, he was in my team, (i can hear you all say) HE IS NOT A ROLLDOWN THEN!!!!!!!!
it was a nice cool afternoom in june 1999 i put my yearling kit up, they came out like wild fire, i said to my self these birds are not going to lift today. then up they went up to a nice hight to score and to see the quality of the roll. all that bar one bird. it just left the kit and up up it went. and beleve me this bird was just a black dot in the sky. then it started to roll. i said to my self it must be dead becase it nevar came out of the roll. i found him (781/97) in the street with 2 big eyes and no tail . i did not try to fly him agane untill he was 3 years old . when i did he just ROLLED DOWN . he is now my no 1 cock in my stock loft, all his young are very FAST,TIGHT,and a good 40ft his hen is a short 20ft but very very FAST
yours in sport and friendship
ROLL ON !!!!!!!!!
ROSS !!!!!!
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
429 posts
Aug 16, 2005
3:18 PM
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Jay.Very good post.We are thinking very much alike.I have said before that the only difference between a Rolldown and a very good roller is that one can stop the other can,t.I just can,t see culling a roller for doing something it is bred to do and that is to roll.We just have to find out how to get them to stop.
Ross.I am so glad that you have shared this with us.It makes me more determined to continue trying it.
I see you are from England.It is my understanding that you folks use landing poles to allow the roller to land so they don,t roll down and hit the loft roof.Is this true?
I hear so many call these cronic bumpers and not fit to breed from.If the landing poles have corrected this problem in the bumpers why not try breeding rolldowns and maybe correcting what causes a roller not to stop.David
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Mount Airy Lofts
33 posts
Aug 16, 2005
9:18 PM
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If you are just looking for roll, then anything will do... even Parlors. Just because it rolls doesn't make it a good roller. I don't know about every one else but I am looking for the total package. This total package includes the ability to have stability. What we put in is what we put out! We are cultivating a strain of stable Rollers here. I can't see how using a roll down will help aid us in this process. To breed true, all one needs to do is cultivate their ideal birds. If one wants to breed a strain of roll downs, keep on selecting these roll downs for breeders and it should breed 100% true later down their breeding program.
Roll Downs in my books are birds that are possessed by the roll. They fear this roll and will give off a scared stare. This same stare is given off by Parlor Rollers. Parlors are scared of the roll and would aviod it by jabbing their tails down to the ground, sort of like a trip pod. To my knowledge, parlors are bred for this fear and Birmingham Rollers are bred for their confidence. If we cultivate towards having possessed rollers, then we are breeding a different strain of Rollers all together. That's just like saying I'm gonna keep on breeding only the tumbler type of Birmingham Rollers. If you select only this type for stock, later down the line, this should breed true for you - which is birds that only have the ability to tumble.
Everyone has the right to believe anything they want. I believe in 'put out what you put in' belief.
Thor
Last Edited by Mount Airy Lofts on Aug 16, 2005 9:30 PM
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fhtfire
180 posts
Aug 16, 2005
9:32 PM
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Thor...Excellent Post!.....I know that the rolldowns that I have produced here and there...have that scared to death look in there eye....very different from one of my good spinners that just have that look of a bad mo fo! Roll downs kind of remind me of that dog that has been hit to much..you raise your hand and they cower down. That is the same look that a roll down give when you open the kit box door...they do not want to come out.
I agree that you want stability in your rollers...the one I put in my breeder loft is the one that can roll 30' in the air and when they come down low can roll a little 10' roll or a little flip. Those are the bird I put in my breeder loft...the ones that actually like to roll and can control it. Not a bird that has no control. Why waste your time.
I mean would you rather drive a corvette that has a power and can handle the power on a curve and as smooth as silk....or do you want to put a big ass motor in a pinto and take the first turn and crash! All that pinto has is a motor and that is it!...the corvette has to whole package! Just like a rolldown.....all throttle and no brakes.
Breed your best bird...the odds are better....Of course you may get a good bird here and there from a roll down.....but the odds are higher (usually) with two excellent spinners in every aspect/; put together...just my thoughts...again....good post!
rock and ROLL
Paul Fullerton
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
430 posts
Aug 17, 2005
2:10 AM
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Paul.What happens if your corvette fails to take a turn.Do you just trash it or do you say it happened because of road conditions or something I did? David
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motherlodelofts
235 posts
Aug 17, 2005
7:03 AM
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There is a "WORLD" of difference between a good bird and a cull such as a rolldown or chronic bumper.
Thor and Paul , both good posts , when you put birds in your breeding program with that scared and or dipshit look about them you easily end up with problem birds.
I have had birds coming in and roll for a week without hitting anything but I could tell that they were rolldowns just by there expression and more times than not they proove you right or at the bare minimum they are problem birds,with some birds it is just way too obvious.
The obvious ones are easy to read, Others aren't.
The bottom line is that you don't have to breed out of rolldowns to know why you shouldn't at least if you know anything about these bird.
Dave remember what I told you one time, what is that old saying 1 + 1 = hmmmmm
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Aug 17, 2005 7:42 AM
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J_Star
28 posts
Aug 17, 2005
7:57 AM
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Thor, Paul and Scott
The term used most often by Scott is ‘the apple never fall away from the tree.’ Other terms I heard also most often is ‘what goes in must come out’ Also I heard allot of is that ‘a true roller man must improve his stuck from generation to generation.’ Those are big terms used all the time but how are they applied. How in the world could you improve your already stable stock?
A roller man must always start with stable birds. That is a given. If you don’t have a stable stock, then change the family of birds. Those stable stock birds can be improved upon from generation to generation with adding a spick of heat now then and gradually. I am not talking about chilly pepper heat that comes from stupid roll down, rather from spiked bumpers or the so-so roll downs. It is a strategy that can be followed to produce good, sound and controlled rollers with spiked heat. You breed best to best and will always get same or less but never better. To move your stock forward, you must add a spick of heat now and then.
A spick of heat added to a sound roller will add velocity and frequency to the roll. If you disagree, please explain and provide us with some useful information. Would you get roll downs from such mating? Sure you would. You will get roll downs from mating best to best also because if you don’t, then you are not mating best to best. How about the percentage? Who cares about the percentage when you are trying to harness better than what you already have. Cull hard and keep the cream of the crop of those mating, breed the offsprings and after two generations, introduce another spick of heat to those offsprings of the offsprings that you already developed. Gradually is the name of the game. Some fanciers like to keep their family blood pure without out crossing, then how would you do it? Please add to this topic explaining how can a fancier move his stock to the next level beside being totally negative about it and putting down the use of rollers with extra heat (rolldowns) to improve the stock with providing reasonably new information for others to see your point of why and how. Please guys enlighten us with your experiences.
You can not make a firm belief that something is not working because of one try or a certain mating. If a pair mated that thro allot of heat then try another mating. Work towered improving and improving alone.
Again no one knows a man’s rollers better than himself. You must know your birds and what is their capability, habits, strengths and weaknesses to be able improve upon them. You must know when to take them in with inbreeding and when to take them out a bit with line breading. You must know when to add a spick of heat and when not to. Those champions and supper rollers were developed rather than just born!! How were they developed? You don’t have to agree but I would like to hear your side of how to improve upon a good and stable stock of rollers. Thanks.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Aug 17, 2005 8:23 AM
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motherlodelofts
236 posts
Aug 17, 2005
8:48 AM
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Jay a spike of heat(sso so rolldowns/bumpers) adds nothing as far as speed and qaulity. if fact it generally it heads in the opposite direction as they tend to fight it.
Speaking on my loft and my birds, I have birds that breed on the warmer side and I have birds that breed on the cooler side, but what I don't have is stock that that covers the "wide" range to both extreams Rolldown on one end and stiff as a board on the other.
In other words the "cool" breeder verses the warmer breeder aren't that far apart. My warmer breeding birds still breed stable on a whole but there are more that will fall apart out of such pairs depending on the mate.
I think that many base a good pairing off of the youngsters that they see before they mature which means little,what is still smoken in that box the following season tells me a pairs true worth. Some pairs can be decieving and look like great matings but one by one fall apart until there is nothing left.
What I want to see out of my birds is a fair amount of consistancy in the breedings, which I tend to get, I get few rolldowns and I get few stiff as boards.
There is nothing worse than "weak" families that breed all over the board or families that hang on the extreams on overdone or stiff. Breeding out of chronic bumpers or so so rolldowns add "nothing" but more crap in the gene pool
just my opinion
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Aug 17, 2005 9:32 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
432 posts
Aug 17, 2005
10:29 AM
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Scott.Have you ever bred to a rolldown? David
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J_Star
29 posts
Aug 17, 2005
10:42 AM
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Scott,
Then how can you improve upon your stable stock without out crossing? Best to best will yield one excellent and the rest are average with some roll down now and then during the breeding season but never better than the parents. How can you take them once step higher?
Some families have the speed and control and lack the frequency, some families have depth but no control and no frequency and others might have depth but loose rolling and on and on...While others have the whole package that we all dream to have. Those rollers were developed but not just born. How were they developed?
The majority of roller families that are solid and show a tremendous control breed as you described and that to me is an average family. The one that breeds all over the board is in the bottom but I am looking for the superior family that produces better than the original stock and how to get there? That is the million dollar question.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Aug 17, 2005 10:45 AM
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Slobberknocker
47 posts
Aug 17, 2005
11:17 AM
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Thor,
I noticed a few posts ago you mentioned how over time birds will breed true to whatever you are breeding towards. Why then, do we raise cull from breeding best to best? If rolldowns, according to what I am reading here, are a fault and will come back to haunt you, why won't good birds constantly breed good birds with little to no culls? I agree with you that if you only breed best to best you will not improve your birds and I think eventually they will go stiff.
Every experienced and knowledgable Roller man I have ever talked with has bred from rolldowns, but he knows how to use them. I think some people cull birds that could be excellent breeders just because they are not perfect in the air.
Bob
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www.slobberknockerlofts.com
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Phantom1
8 posts
Aug 17, 2005
11:54 AM
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Translation - If ALL you do is breed best to best, to best, to best - logic and experience would tell us that ALL you should have is a family of the same birds doing the same thing. (See Thor's post)
Question - why, if we were all doing this, would ANY of us get a rolldown? Why would we get a bird that's not as frequent, etc? WHY, based on what I've heard, would we only get 1 bird out of every 10 worth keeping?
Eric
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motherlodelofts
237 posts
Aug 17, 2005
4:11 PM
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Jay they can only give you what is in the "gene' pool, How do I improve my family ? I have what I need on the property allready , I improve by trying to take the best that this family has to offer and work on upping the percentages of the these.
Dave work on trying to understand the mental and physical strengths and weaknesess of these birds and then you will understand. It will also guide you in more balanced matings.
Here is a little food for thought :
There are those that just breed these pigeons.
And then there are those that "know" how to breed these pigeons.
Eric there is more to it than just breeding best to best, if it was that easy than everybody would be flying great pigeons.
Bob not a single good breeder that I have ever met or talked with based thier birds off of rolldowns, for the most part I have only met kids or those that knew no better use them. Myself they are the only cull that is not allowed to ever leave the property even to the feed store,it is cruel "not" to kill them.
Just my opinion
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Aug 17, 2005 7:24 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
433 posts
Aug 17, 2005
6:05 PM
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Scott.All I can say is you should get out of your circle and find out what is going on in the roller world.
If rolldown is a serious fault and you havn't been able to breed it out of the family you are working with that has been kept pure for the past 50 years then maybe its time to realize its not a fault and correct the problem that is causing the roller to rolldown.Just my opinion.David
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motherlodelofts
238 posts
Aug 17, 2005
7:15 PM
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Dave I am very very critical about what goes into stock, problem birds do not make it in "period", my goal is to keep such birds down to a minimun and to breed birds that can hammer flawlessly and safely on a fairly consistant basis year after year, and I do breed such birds , but what I don't breed is large numbers of them,but I breed more than I used to due to selection .
Rolldowns will never be eliminated, but nor would most breed towards such a cull, at least not in "my" circle.
As for me getting out and finding out what is going on in the roller world , are you frigging kidding me LOL lOL LOL, I think that the difference is Dave is that we are in different Roller worlds
Good luck Dave
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Aug 17, 2005 8:26 PM
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Mount Airy Lofts
34 posts
Aug 17, 2005
10:34 PM
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Bob,
Breeding true is a strain of quality birds. This doesn't mean you won't have 'culls'. Isn't the saying - 1 in a 1000 birds bred will be Champions. Even in the best of stock, every bird bred won't be Champions. The key is to get the best results with lessor 'culls'. Always trying to improve on your breeding program. Now, if you can improve your stock by adding in Roll Downs, my hats off to you.
If your strain doesn't have the goods and you need to bring in a Roll Down or Two, there must be something wrong with your strain in the first place or you must of picked the wrong stock birds. Culling from your stock loft should be the first place one needs to look at.
Heck, I got a understanding that color birds got to where they are today by guys only picking the best performers in the group. Isn't this the same way the Birmingham Roller born as well ages ago from tumblers.
I'm just saying that if you pick your ideals and keep on breeding them with those ideals, they should hold true after so many generations. Look at all the tumblers families out there. Some strains have a trait to them that can be spotted by the original fancier many generations down the road. This is so because it has been bred into that strain. I hear about Old Timers picking out certain birds that was bred down from their stock all the time. Don't you think this is so because he has bred that certain trait in his family?
Heck, if you or anyone else want to add a Roll Down to your stock... go ahead. If you want to add a Stiff to your stock... go ahead. If you want to add a Madd Bumper to your stock... go ahead. When all is said and done, these are your birds and those are your ideal type. Balancing a Bad trait (cull) with a good trait, shouldn't be what we should telling guys... especially the guys looking to take short cuts.
I'll stick to breeding only out of the best I have. Heck it has worked from the beginning of this breed.
Thor
P.S. Have you ever had a 'click pair' that bred true in almost every bird? What do you think caused this pair to breed so true? This pair's young is also the pair you would recommend a new fancier not to fly out if he was getting a pair of young birds from you. If that isn't breeding true, I don't know what is...
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