George Ruiz
43 posts
Aug 20, 2005
6:17 PM
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Does frequency have to be bred into the birds for them to have it or do most roller's have frequency but need to be tweaked (feed) to disply it.
which family of birds have you seen that has a lot of frequency without having to starve almost to death
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big al
97 posts
Aug 20, 2005
7:14 PM
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Hey George,
You asked...
Does frequency have to be bred into the birds for them to have it or do most roller's have frequency but need to be tweaked (feed) to disply it?
which family of birds have you seen that has a lot of frequency without having to starve almost to death?
Frequency can be bred into your rollers for sure. Do most rollers have it? I don't think so, although there are guys flying birds with frequency but don't know it because of the way they're feeding them. (Too much, too little, or the wrong thing)
If the birds are bred with frequency in mind it minimizes drastic feed adjustments I think. I don't like having to starve the birds to the extent you mentioned to get them frequent. The current family of birds I have, I've been working with for 3 years and they perform great on a nice meal. Not too much, not too little.
Last year I won a local fly for "Best Individual Bird" of the fly. This ash red (Boomer) averages 35' 2 to 3 times a minute. If he's extra light 40' plus.
The problem I have with him is he has to be starved on death's bed to roll like that regardless of what or how you're feeding him. If he's fed a moderate meal he may just give you a few quick spins. He's not a member of the family I'm working with now because he was given to me but he's a joy to watch. I like to feed all my birds the same thing at the same time because of time restraints, so I breed accordingly.
Hope that helps?----------
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
Last Edited by big al on Aug 20, 2005 7:15 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
122 posts
Aug 20, 2005
9:00 PM
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Does frequency have to be bred into the birds for them to have it or do most roller's have frequency but need to be tweaked (feed) to disply it.
which family of birds have you seen that has a lot of frequency without having to starve almost to death
I believe that frequency is one of the most difficult aspect of rollers to understand. In a sense it is the throttle mechanism, and I believe is based upon a chorus of different traits in a bird. This is why I believe you will see frequency largely associated with "families" where many of the important traits are similiarly aligned and reproduce whatever mental action is necessary to make the bird roll over and over again. But then, you can get the same results from the right pair that puts these mental pieces together in a fashion that gives the bird a repetitive trigger.
Of all of the things I have learned (and still learning), it appears that frequency is definitely something you can breed for and see immediate results with the right pairings. I've heard and tried many different things to get more frequency from my stock pairings, but the one thing that always seem to have the most credibility is something I have heard several good roller men mention, and that is to find yourself a short, extremely frequent, kit chaser...preferrably a cock. You know, one of those birds that is always rolling, but is always chasing after the kit.
I think it is obvious which families have a whole lot of frequency. Here locally its the Reed/higgins birds that are bar none the most frequent. And for the most part, you can feed them pretty regular instead of turning them into beaks and feet and almost no pulse. I personally prefer a balance between the two extremes. I don't like them too frequent and I definitely hate those birds you have to starve to get them right for comp day.
Brian.
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FULLTURN
1 post
Feb 26, 2006
10:56 PM
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I have a little different take on frequency. I believe that “frequency is over rated”. Let me explain; if you are breeding for 20 bird competition, random rolling (when kit condition doesn’t warrant it) is a waste. Rolling away from the kit is a waste. Rolling from the back of the kit and struggling to catch up is a waste. Timed rolling (every so many seconds) is a waste. Frequency should be dictated by the numbers of turns that a kit makes. Frequency should relate to the kit and the number of setups (turns) that are made and not the number of times a bird rolls. Random rolling may make a bird frequent, but SO WHAT!
We should be talking about frequency of turns (the kits flying habits or flying pattern). There will be more turns from kits that fly slow and in a figure 8 pattern. There is more opportunity for the birds to roll together when the kit makes more turns. We should be looking for that bird who is “More Frequent On The Turns” The best birds don’t miss a turn. Unless the kit creates a turn (setup) a good bird won’t have an opportunity to roll and should not. The focus should be on teamwork over individual performance. The above applies more specifically for how the 20 bird competition is judged. The 10 bird competition would favor random rolling.
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
405 posts
Feb 27, 2006
11:28 AM
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no name, I agree with what you are saying. I think that would be considered the next level of discussion beyond just basic discussion about frequency. Now you are talking specifics which are very, very important. I have some of that "frequent" family that just drives me nuts. They are always rolling, 3-5 times a minute and wear themselves out in less than 10 minutes. Some of these birds are really good rollers, but they are worthless for anything other than the 11 bird fly. Birds like these just destroy a kit's chemistry. I find that if I have a kit that shows promise, and then I remove these "popcorn" rollers as I call them, the kit almost immediately gets better and in sync with one another.
I think initally you have to have and breed for frequency, otherwise it doesn't matter how good your birds are, if they aren't rolling enough to keep up with the active kits, you will never do well in kit competition. The term "stiff' is a derrogatory term and for good reason. We routinely use the term "balance" in our discussions about roller issues and this is yet another aspect where a person has to balance out the character and trigger of his birds to create birds that can actually stop rolling if they want to, but recognize how to be a team player.
Brian.
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FULLTURN
3 posts
Feb 27, 2006
8:19 PM
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Brian, You said: "I think initially you have to have and breed for frequency, otherwise it doesn't matter how good your birds are, if they aren't rolling enough to keep up with the active kits, you will never do well in kit competition". My only comment is that you might be putting the cart before the horse. I would suggest that it would be better to select stock only from birds with kit sensitivity and not random frequency. I have found it much harder to achieve kit sensitivity than random frequency. I base this on the fact there are so few 3/4 turns posted in competition. The process of selecting your breeding stock should start with team players and not individual performers. A bunch of 5’s and 6’s add up…… but not as fast as 10’s and 15’s do.
Your friend, Ron Judd
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
408 posts
Feb 27, 2006
8:36 PM
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Hey Ron, you better start flying some damn pigeons again or I am going to come over there and release them myself...lol. Man I am sick to death of feeding this wicked bitch, and she lives somewhere over by your shop. She took another one today.
I agree totally that kit sensitivity is crucial. That might be over some newer fancier's heads. It does take time to understand it. It took me a few years to understand the difference between rolling and rolling together instinctively. I believe you can start with good/decent birds from anyone's lofts and over time, select for those traits as they show themselves. By those selections you can compound those traits and it will show in the way a person's kit performs. Sensitivity isn't automatic though, even in a family that has it as one of it's instincts. The birds have to be in shape, in true form to really show their potential. I think that many times what you see as smaller breaks from birds you know should be better, is they are not in the right shape. When they are, you know it because they, as a team, will light the sky abaze with snappy, big breaks. And often, they are rolling really clean and crisp in those breaks.
Did Ken call you about flying next month? He's the new coordinator for the club.
Brian.
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Mount Airy Lofts
122 posts
Feb 27, 2006
11:16 PM
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full turn,
Great Post! I agree with everything you said.
Thor
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quickspin
489 posts
Apr 08, 2008
3:17 PM
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good info.
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SALAS LOFT
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wishiwon2
51 posts
Apr 08, 2008
4:01 PM
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Good post Brian and Ron.
I believe kit sensitivity is a trait if properly identified and selected for will move your kits in a productive and positive direction for competition. It is also a difficult trait to identify in individual birds. They are often "lost" in the middle of the kit. They roll primarily only in the breaks, so they are not as noticable. I have looked for them and tried to incorporate birds with this type of performing trait in my program. I have got it wrong at times too. i am still learning to identify what Monte called voluntary rollers. If either of you have any tips on picking these kjnds of birds out and can articulate it, Id sure like to read about it. It may be something that is easier to show than tell about ... Im looking for birds that like to work together, but also in a project to add work rate to my teams.
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