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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
What would you do?
What would you do?
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Double D
10 posts
Sep 18, 2005
8:40 PM
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Let's say you are just getting into rollers. You don't have tons of money but the initial cost isn't a real concern so you are looking for the best birds you can possibly get. If you lose the initial birds you purchase then money to buy more birds might not be as easy to get, (you all know how your wives are about spending more money on those $#%@ birds). You visit some of the lofts of some top competition flyers who have won on a high level and have a chance to see their birds in the air. You are looking to build a top notch program so that you can compete. You go into the decision knowing that no one is going to give you their best breeding pair nor even pair #2 from their loft so you figure your best shot to build a world-class program is to get squeakers from the best pairs of the birds you like from an owner who has proven his birds are world-class performers and hope for the best. So, you've visited a number of lofts, watched lots of kits of birds, and let's say for the sake of arguement that the owner of the birds you like, who has won competitions at high levels mind you, is willing to sell you 10 young birds from the best pairs in his loft.
Here's the dilemna: You can't really afford to replace them if you lose them for whatever reason. However, you can't pick your foundation cock or hen without flying them and you know how important it is going to be to your program to build a world-class level breeding program so you can keep your future kits strong. I'm, of course, assuming that you pick your breeders from how they perform in the air right?
So, do you fly those young birds, taking a chance that you might lose them to predators or whatever so that you can determine who MIGHT be the best breeders by their performance, or do you lock them all down knowing it would be very difficult to replace them, then breed them when they are old enough, fly their young and try to determine your foundation pairs from how their young perform? The latter of course would, in my opinion, really slow your breeding program down, not to mention take away from the initial excitement of getting into rollers because you wouldn't be able to fly birds for some time.
What would you do?
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Bill C
7 posts
Sep 18, 2005
10:10 PM
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Hey I am in the same boat, kind of! I have gotten some good kit birds off of a reputable breeder and I an not going to fly them and take a chance on lose one or more to hawks or overfly. This will take longer because I will be mixing up the pairs and will pick future foundation cock and hen from the air. After all these birds will be related to the best stock pair anyway. Most want to get high percentages by seeing them fly but experience teaches not all will produce the same. Maybe many will though.
I have the best cock bird (from a different mix family) from a pair of foster birds I used as just for fostering because they paired in the kit box and the hen kept laying eggs. Late in the year I let them raise a round and bamb!!! It turned out to be the best velocity I had last year. I would not fly only ten birds I would breed them and fly next year. You might want to get 8 pair to breed from so you can get a good kit going. That would mean get 6 more or 10 more sicne you might end up with more cocks than hens. If the pairs didn't produce well then mix them up and keep good records and fill three kit boxes the next year and you will have some great birds to choose from if they are from a good stock. Besides with only 10 birds and you pick out the best two after flying one or two years you still will need several years to get 8 to 10 pair going. I have some other birds I am breeding but fly all the young. I finally decided to get some better birds when I saw them and realized the difference. I no longer need anymore birds. If I cant make it now I never will. Good Luck to you! Bill C
Last Edited by Bill C on Sep 18, 2005 10:10 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
145 posts
Sep 18, 2005
10:53 PM
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Here's my version of a realistic approach. Assuming you are getting these young birds you described now, this is not a good time to be trying to get young birds on the wing. And for most flyers, it won't be good air until spring. You will lose some. You might lose them all. Breeding season is technically only four or so months away. I would suggest locking them up and hopefully you have an equal number of cocks and hens which can then be mated up when they are ready. Rollers are usually more than ready by six months of age. I would tell the breeder I am getting the birds from that this is my plan, and what would be his best advice for pairing them up when they are ready? You see, if he has a good family and knows his birds well, we can assume he has already done all of the tedious trial work. If you are getting young from his best pairs, the odds are in your favor.
Put the pairs down and raise a bunch. Mid season, break them up and swap the pairs around and breed a bunch more.
Then obviously fly the heck of them and let the pairs tell you what birds are clicking and what pairs might not be.
In my opinion, in this circumstance, flying the birds out would be a waste of time. I am not one that subscribes to the theory you have to breed around one cock or one hen. Breed from all of them and let their offspring show you what they are capable. Often the best birds in the air are not the best producers. Go off of the fact the guy you are getting them from has already established the family and that by-and-large, the results should be somewhat similar in the young you produce from these birds. You already have it in your mind that you want to breed from this family. My advice would be to not waste time on flying them out and just get right down to breeding. If they are screwed up then you will know it by the offspring they produce. And vice-versa if they produce the goods. By next summer you not only have some potentially good birds in the loft, but several kits to fly to really get a good feel for what the family is capable of under your management.
Brian.
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Alohazona
57 posts
Sep 18, 2005
11:27 PM
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Double,if I were to do it all over again,I would stay away from the young bird thing,Big waste of time,money etc.Find a flyer/breeder or competitor that will let go of a proven pair of breeders or flyers,if a guy is good or great in the competitions,he will have some he can let go of,2 or 3 pair is all you need.
Double,proven is proven and lettice is lettice,I know were not talking vegtables,it will be alittle more time and effort to find that flyer,it will take you into the mainstream of rollers faster with less problem birds to weed through.Theres nothing wrong with say a 10 bird kit,but you could end up with a box of birds that are paltry at best.The internet has brought a lot of sources into your home,utilize it for contacts,try to get over to their place to see the birds,but the key word is PROVEN.Just my opinion.ALOHA,Todd
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Shaun
95 posts
Sep 18, 2005
11:51 PM
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Brian, you mention a very valid point which has been bugging me for while, concerning the master plan for my Masons. Every good breeder knows that what does the business in the air, might not go on to make a good breeder, and vice versa. With this in mind, why do you think George is adamant that I should fly as many offspring as possible from the many I have, then select the best cock and three hens - and, bingo, I'm away with my foundation stock?
Looking at it another way, if some of the original stock I have, go on to produce something wonderful in the air, why not carry on using them as breeders? Why use only the next generation? Am I missing something?
It concerns me that I could end up with 20 Masons, never flown, which have served their purpose and have to be disposed of. I wouldn't necessarily need them as fosters, as all the youngsters which didn't produce the goods in the air, could do the same fostering job.
Going back to the main purpose of this post, I've had my birds locked down and breeding is due to commence over the coming months. I took the advice not to fly them and I'm happy I made that decision. The cocks and hens are starting to show themselves and I'm separating them as this happens. They're only 4 to 5 months old and treading has already been seen. However, I'm going to wait a couple more months, to ensure the birds are mature enough to breed properly.
So as not to get very frustrated in not having anything to fly, pending the outcome of the breeding, I obtained more youngsters from George and another guy just to fly. From the Mason perspective, this has made a world of difference, because I now understand how the family works - pros and cons. When added to the other birds I have flying, the whole thing has given me a good deal of experience. I've breed quite a few, settled them (lost the odd one), observed them day after day, etc.
What this means is that I won't be a complete novice when the main breeding program kicks in. It's going to get harder, as I'm going to have whole kits of young birds to nurture, settle and train.
Another thing I'm not quite sure about with you US guys. Over here in England, breeding tends to start around November. If things go to plan, the first round of birds will be ready for ringing with the new year's bands, in January. The idea is that these early rollers will be 'young birds' in competition terms, for that much longer, thus improving chances for the young bird flies, later in the year. So, why do US guys wait until spring to breed?
Shaun
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
460 posts
Sep 19, 2005
3:58 AM
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Shaun.I try to have my first round ready to band as soon as I can in Jan.The earlier I can get a kit in the air the better.But of course I was always selling my # 1 kit around this time of the year too.I won,t be this year.LOL.
It depends on how bad the Winters are too.I have been getting by the past 5 years doing this as our Winters have been milder than usual thru this time in Pennsylvania.David
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motherlodelofts
274 posts
Sep 19, 2005
7:05 AM
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Choosing breeders is not the crap shoot that some make it to be, your best breeders for developing a "longterm" family will come out of topnotch birds.
As for just bringing in and breeding out of youngsters, I would say if it is the right family , and out of the "right" pairs and that family is tightly bred and is truelly a family instead a hodgpog of birds , then yes I would do it, but on the same hand, for myself there are only a few lofts that I would consider for this.
And Do "NOT" breed unproven birds out of the first generation of those.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Sep 19, 2005 7:57 AM
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highroller
49 posts
Sep 19, 2005
9:19 AM
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Shaun,
I time my first round to be ready to train in early-mid April. The hawks will eat up every squeaker I put out on the roof before that. I think a lot more U.S. breeders have the same situation. I have bred through the winter to supply someone else with birds on occasion.
Dan
Last Edited by highroller on Sep 19, 2005 9:19 AM
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siddiqir
37 posts
Sep 19, 2005
9:19 AM
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I would not fly youngsters if I know they came from good stock. It will take some time to have youngsters kit from them, fly them hard to see what they can do. Chances are always 50/50. It would be rare that you will get click pair out of those youngsters but if you get 5 good rollers out of 10 which show what you like, you can start building family around them.
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Double D
11 posts
Sep 19, 2005
9:48 AM
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I have to admit I'm just a little bit surprised at the consensus which seems to be locking them down and breeding from them. I thought most guys would suggest flying them in order to pick those to breed from.
Scott, as always, I found your post interesting and opinionated which is what I like about you. Plus, I know Paul spoke very highly of you when I visited with him once on the phone. As a result of that and reading many of your past posts, (I just went through a 78-post topic last night about color and mongrels and some guy named Phantom that I'm sure you'll recall)I have really come to value your opinion. Having said that, I would be very interested in which "FEW" lofts you respect enough to lock the youngsters down. I have one in mind that I would be interested in getting your opinion on but I'd much rather have that conversation by email so as not to offend. If you're interested, you can email me at olson22170@msn.com or give me your email address and I can email you.
In any case, I'd be interested in your opinion Paul as well as your's Tony. I'm looking at a sizable investment in breeding loft, kit boxes, and birds next spring and I'm in the learning, researching, and planning stages through the winter because I want to make sure I do this right.
Guys, thank you for the great posts and advice, I absolutely love reading through this message board and thanks again Tony for such a great forum.
Darin
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Richard A.
66 posts
Sep 19, 2005
2:59 PM
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Personally, I dont see any reason that a person can't breed all year long. I have never experienced anything negative because of my doing it.
Richard A.
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Fr.mike
13 posts
Sep 19, 2005
3:22 PM
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R.A. what is the climate where you live.does it seem to hurt the birds not giving them a rest? I guess what I would like to know most is how long have you been doing this? And are you burning the hens out in 2-3 years ? If you have been breeding lie this for more than 6-8years ?
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
146 posts
Sep 19, 2005
11:01 PM
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I have bred some pairs year round, but most of the time I am done by July, so they get about five months off. That said, I don't think there is much a person can do about a hen burning out on egg production. Most of my hens, even after breaking them up, find a new mate in the hen loft and continue to produce eggs. I got tired of throwing them out all summer long so now I just let them sit on them. Of course after a month or so, they abandon that corner, find a new clump of feathers on the floor and lay again!.LOL.
BMC
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
461 posts
Sep 20, 2005
3:33 AM
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A Hen is hatched with whatever eggs she will lay in her lifetime.You can pump her while she is young or stretch it out over a long period of time.If I have an exceptional hen I will pump her while she is younger and foster the eggs before something happens to her.Of course if you arn't able to fly them(weather etc.)it would be useless to do so.David
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Shaun
96 posts
Sep 20, 2005
10:12 AM
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Hey, Brian, is it a thing with your family that they have a tendency towards being dykes (English for lesbians)?
Shaun
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
149 posts
Sep 20, 2005
2:07 PM
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LOL Shaun. I think most healthy pigeons tend to mate up to their own sex when confined with only the same sex for a long period of time. (note: see prison.lol). All of my breeds do it, not just the rollers.
Brian.
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motherlodelofts
280 posts
Sep 20, 2005
3:41 PM
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I think that it is in the air down there LOL
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Richard A.
67 posts
Sep 20, 2005
9:07 PM
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Where I live the summers are very hot and the winters get into the low 20s, but the cage that I have was made for dealing with the weather.I was asked by a friend, Homer Coderre to help a young fellow that wanted to get into rollers and after I moved to Apple Valley, he built the loft for me. I would not have known what to do. I am not capable of building much of anything. Now that I have retired, I breed all year long. I dont recall having a burnout problem too many times in my roller years, but have seen some. I breed for a specific body type and if I have a favorite bird that is producing good for me, I go back to the pair that produced that bird and try to clone it. After I do that, I use it in that same way that I was using the other bird and most of the times the results are pretty equal. I always try to have spares in the holding cages that will also produce for me in case I were to lose a bird that is special to me.
Richard
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
359 posts
Sep 20, 2005
9:17 PM
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Well, in my opinion, you answered your own question; you just don’t like the answer. LOL There are no shortcuts in breeding rollers properly. If a person does not have patience to wait the several months to breed out of those offspring, maybe he is not cut out to breed quality rollers.
In this push button, fast food world we live in, we have been conditioned to have what we want and have it NOW. Spend this downtime studying the birds. Check type, temperament, muscle, feather quality, see the intangibles in those birds, and learn quality on the ground. Test your observations later when you are flying their offspring.
A newcomer to rollers can spend this downtime time excited like a giddy schoolgirl or be smart and take a long slow look at each bird and use the time to study his stock.
To sum it up, a newcomer can use this time to observe his birds and compare it to what will be seen in the air. Time spent studying is never wasted.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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motherlodelofts
282 posts
Sep 21, 2005
12:05 AM
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Personally by the end of breeding season "I" am the one that is burnt out.
It is a good feeling splitting the pairs up and getting the last kit of youngsters airborone with plenty of wing time before the weather and Hawks move in.
Of coarse it isn't long and I am allready anticipating the next breeding season and thoughts on pairings for the next season are constantly on my mind.
I had a guy that lived not far from me, in fact once the the leaves fall I can see his roof as I live up the hill.
He would tell you his hawk stories,Coopers,Redtails you name it,it was like a wholesale slaughter from his stories, and I'm thinking " now I can see this guys roof and I don't have these problems, he must be high"
Then I find out this guys breeding all year and constantly kicking out youngsters , then it hits me " this clown has trained the hawks" then I start getting alot more problems and even my local RedTails start getting stupid on me.
Finally this guy gets out of birds about two years ago and things have settled back down now that there isn't a steady food source of young sqaub.
I might add that this guy bred more birds than I did but was constantly scraping for kitbirds as it became a cycle of hawks eating birds and the nonstop constant cycle of breeding more birds which in turn fed more hawks. Personally I was glad to see him leave the area as his problems spilled over into my airspace.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Sep 21, 2005 12:09 AM
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