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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Interesting question for Tony & everyone
Interesting question for Tony & everyone
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Double D
21 posts
Sep 23, 2005
8:49 PM
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I just got done reading "How to Breed Concert Performance" by Rick Mee which talked about breeding everything in your loft from one solid pair to begin with and ultimately daughters back to the foundation cock and removing the original hen from the picture and it prompted a question.
You have awesome pictures of your foundation cock on this sight and he's a fine looking bird without a doubt and this question if more out of fun than seriously wanting that bird but is there a price at which you'd sell that cock?
If so, maybe you could quote a range just to make it interesting.
Again, it's not my intention to get too personal and just thought it would be an interesting question.
How about the rest of you top breeders and flyers, is there a reasonable price at which you'd let go of your best breeder or is that bird so valuable to you that you wouldn't let it go for say $1,000 or $5,000 or maybe even $10,000?
Last Edited by Double D on Sep 23, 2005 8:55 PM
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Velo99
89 posts
Sep 24, 2005
5:04 AM
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DD.
I have that article on the hard drive. Most of it has held true. I have two families that are like third cousins. The birds I bred out of these families are similar in performance and usually roll together. I can almost always count on a good show from these guys.
V99
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
363 posts
Sep 24, 2005
5:54 AM
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Hey DoubleD, “thanks” for the compliment on my foundation cock bird. I too like that Concert Performance article from Rick Mee. Concert performance is one of the rewards for staying focused on a good breeding program that takes advantage of an outstanding cock.
Bill Pensom also recommends using a single cock to build a family of birds. I focused my breeding program around a single cock: LPRC-93-903. Every one of my birds that I use for breeding or sell has 903 on both sides of the pedigree.
903 has produced extremely well for me and since he went sterile last year, I would not part with any of his direct sons or daughters at any cost. I would say that anyone that was fortunate enough to get one of his offspring is sitting on a gene pool of enormous potential.
One thing I noticed, is that in over 12 years, this 903 cock has NEVER been sick, rundown, looking out of sorts in any way! He is the most intelligent looking bird I have ever seen. He was an outstanding parent and always took the highest perch, highest nest box; few birds ever really challenged him. His performance and ability in the air was everything I ever wanted in a roller. Time and again he produced outstanding performers that I would not part with.
His presence in my loft has been almost mystical. I judge all other rollers against this bird. He has set a high standard and I am glad I have several good cocks that are direct sons to him to continue my program.
To answer your question; when 903 was in breeding form, I would not have sold him unless you offered me financial independence, LOL…as this is what he has done for me figuratively speaking that is.
The 903 gene pool has given me so much confidence in my birds that when seen in the light of this valuable article, I think it is personally worth the slings and arrows that I sometimes take to sell 903’s offspring.
(SIDEBAR) What’s funny, the only ones that harp on selling birds and call others names like “feather merchant” are those that already have good stock (or think they do), but it is never the person that doesn’t.
It has been my goal to provide a good gene pool to newcomers without giving up my stock birds. If I were starting over, I would want a pair of Ruby Rollers.
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Here are a several quotes from Rick’s article that I like:
“Never allow anything else in to your newly developed family, unless someone else’s family of rollers has a very strong attribute that your birds are definitely lacking”
“Intensify your gene pool even more… mate the best daughters back to their father”
“What we create is a flock which are all similar in type, require the same amounts of feed, react the same to different grains and kit very tightly because of the relationship to each other within the kit”
“Automatic mental connection between each bird in the kit because of their closeness”
“kit chemistry, and is achieved when those who are worthy of the competition team are flown together for a long period of time”
“I have found that the more consistent flyers are all flying kits, which were derived from just a few rollers in the beginning”
“Haphazard and countless mating of different families, later to have their young flown together only leads to kits that roll individually, or at best not collective enough to bin big competitions”
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I think to a true roller man, asking to buy his best bird or two, while a compliment, is like asking to buy his oldest son or daughter. Who in their right mind would even consider something like that?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by rollerpigeon on Sep 24, 2005 6:03 AM
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fhtfire
213 posts
Sep 24, 2005
9:07 AM
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I too like Rick Mee's article. I agree with everything in it...but I now question the flying of different strains together....will lower your concert performance. Did Joe Bob fly some different strains together...Right now My A team is made up of 3 different strains...Campbell and Ruby Roller included....I feel pretty confident with the team that I have now...or am I just lucky that these three strains that I have just click. I can't make up my mind on this topic. Do I believe that there is a mental link among siblings...maybe.....but I know my brothers and sisters are all different LOL!!!
Just from my travels from loft to loft...I have seen mixed strain kits put up just as good a show as one strain kits.....Call me wrong or right...but I feel that it is all in picking the birds that click together...paying attetnion to what your kit is doing...David Vang...came by my house the other day and was really impressed with my kit that I put up...they were full blown into the molt...and he posted on this site...that they put on a good show....David flys Billings and Campbell birds. Anyway...My kit is mixed. I think you have to start out with real good birds.....pay attention to what the birds are telling you.....trial and error......and building a kit that possesses good teamwork......One of my best rollers is in the B team right now....because it was not a good team player....was taking the inside and pulling the kit on breaks....but he is a smoker. But not a team player...He also like to roll on his own. This is just my opinion......Based on what I have seen going to different lofts over the years and asking a ton of questions.....It is all in getting the best strain possible....period!...Like Scott Campbell says...you can't make chicken soup out of chicken shit! I tell you right now....I would not use another strain...if I lost my birds....like I did last year!!!...I would be knocking on campbells door.....and taking his little rooster hostage for some birds....I would also beg Tony for some more birds....These I feel are the 2 best strains in my loft....they work well together and they welll....rock and ROLL!
Paul
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motherlodelofts
289 posts
Sep 24, 2005
10:07 AM
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Darin
I find that the tighter things are, the more progress is made in all area's.
But the right birds MUST be used , I have seen some inbreed just for the sake of inbreeding.
Even when starting with a well developed family your loft should natually tighten up as you stumble on producing birds.
From there you start circling the wagons around these particular birds.
My best breedings come when "both" cock and hen are producing breeders , to dispose of the hen basicly means that she wasn't that good.
These birds that you start working around should start forming their own line's and these line's will all tie in together blood wise , every loft needs more than one line as each line is used to draw in fresh blood.
This way you don't need to go outside of the loft for fresh blood and you are able to use further back linebreeding as an out cross, the same but different.
Different key breeders out of these key breeders should pop up as you continue down the line.
I kinda get a kick out of those that use others names on their birds even after years of breeding, you must constantly road map out what you are doing, sometimes these roads lead to dead ends which is ok as new directions are discovered.
The birds in your loft should constantly move away from the source loft, if it isn't you either need a different family or need to learn some breeding skills .
Selection is the key, what you put in is what will pop out as you go down the line's , that is why I am so anal about faults.
When you are dealing with faults such as unstability,non kiting,early landing, blood in the eye ect. If you bury this garbage and inbreeding becomes impossible due to the faults overwhelm everything.
There is a saying "if you can't inbreed / linebreed it, it aint worth breeding "
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Sep 24, 2005 12:29 PM
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big al
117 posts
Sep 24, 2005
2:01 PM
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Hey Scott,
Nice post man.
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Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
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nicksiders
215 posts
Sep 25, 2005
12:24 AM
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Stay with one proven family and change your pairings to get what you are seeking to improve. Many people each time they visit another's loft feel they have to come away with at least one bird "they just got to have" and put that bird in the mix. What they get is a lot of culls or they end up flying a lot of junk. The gene pool is not very often improved, but is simply broadened and thier family weakened.
I was guilty of that and ended up putting a lot of junk in the air.
Keep your family intact and build from it. I would recommend not discarding what you have just to start over. Build on what you have and make it stronger. You have got to have at least one cock and one hen that can rock and roll; put them together and then mate the best daughters to the father and the best sons to the mother. The best off spring from these pairings can be mated back to each other avoiding to put sister to brother............just a suggestion that has worked for me (kinda like a half brother to half sister)
I am now starting to get birds that are reasonably active.
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Velo99
91 posts
Sep 25, 2005
5:18 AM
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I was reading an article the other day. It stated that one should not immediately breed back into the line but build some numbers and analyze the family for undesirable traits that might crop up as the line ages.
This is one reason I have decided to take the four years to decide which line I will work with. Not only do I want birds that fly well,but are also great parents. Birds that are hardy,and intelligent. Any comments on this would be welcome.I hope this works out and I am not standing there with drool on my chin asking "What Happened?"
yits
v99
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spinnerdom
5 posts
Mar 18, 2006
9:10 AM
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YOU TRY TO BUY A PROVEN PAIR,BUT HE WONT SELL YOU THOSE
YOU BUY BRO AND SIS,ALL EGGS GO TO BREEDERS
BREED TILL THEY STOP LAYING KEEP ALL THE YOUNG
ALL YOUNG ARE BRO AND SIS,
THE ODD YOUNG OVER FLY GETTING AT LEAST A LOOK
ALL YOUNG AND SAME PARENTS SECOND YEAR,ALL EGGS TO BREEDERS
FLY ALL YOUNG OFF THESE,AS LONG AS YOU CAN
YOU HAVE PUT IN TWO YRS, YOU NOW KNOW WHAT YOU HAVE
BREEDER ARE BARN COMMES, BETTER BREEDERS
FEED BREEDERS 18% PELLETS.SELL COMMES TO KILLER
DIDNT GET WHAT YOU START AGAIN.
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Velo99
274 posts
Mar 18, 2006
10:12 AM
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Jim.
This season I am going to pump a loaner pair I have and my favorite hen to the proven cock bird. This will reduce the number of birds I produce this season but I feel the tightness of the birds will be worth the reduction. The loaner pair is almost identical in body type to my second favorite pair.They will be "on" next season. The loaners should fit in quite nicely.
I got the proven birds as a buddy was narrowing his gene pool. I didn`t ask, he offered cuz he knew I was in need. I did ask about some squeaks which prompted the offer of the breeders. This season I will only breed 10 birds that are not related.I already have these on the ground. I was talking with a friend about strategy for the upcoming season. I had several ideas which were not really going to give me what I wanted.He suggested this course of action and a similar one next season to see just exactly what I have to work with. Two season four lines of birds.
Ultimately I will breed one cock to two differrent hens. The hens I think are distantly related which should pan out nicely.The hens have been flown out and the cock is a proven breeder.I have two of his squeaks in the air now and I must say they are progressing nicely.
I would feel they key to getting a pair of proven breeders is to not be looking forthem and just maybe they will be dropping in your lap. It took over a year for this deal to go down. Patience is key even when buying birds. This is a time consumptive sport.I am sure you will agree.
yits
KennyH
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spinnerdom
21 posts
Mar 19, 2006
2:50 PM
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i will try not to yell but at 73 my hearing is not the best
the other o never mind to much information
is there a question in zair somtwar.
jim 3/19/06
breed hen to cock thro away the hen. why
to empisize the cock genes, to get cocky cock.
hen side will lead to heny cocks,these are less agressive.
down the road the very passive. the line get weaker then fade away.
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spinnerdom
38 posts
Mar 21, 2006
8:20 AM
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you have 4 pairs right,put all eggs,on breeders commes prefered, breed as many as you can,not knowing your breeding season,get to know these yougsters in side out,fly what you dont like,you will see the genes.
do same next yr,fly again dont likes.if you have a clicking pair,6 young out 10. pump the hell out of these.
you now have a family,never brakeup this pair.breed your bro and sis,breed their young back to father daughter,mother son,you now have your other 3 familys.you dont need them,but your time your money . genes side view,circular form. dont from the ars unless you wont h h h these bird are large. i dont wont them i breed for speed.
all the best jim3/20/06
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