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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Question from the "Unpredictable Results"
Question from the "Unpredictable Results"
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Double D
22 posts
Sep 25, 2005
8:41 PM
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article under the "Roller Articles" link. You can go there for the full article but here is an excerpt from Tony's response to J Star:
"Their genetic predisposition to reproduce like kind is very high. But you will never be able to select breeders that will improve the genetic pool. What is there cannot be improved upon, only consolidated. Improvement will stop at some point to that level that is maximally available."
So my question is WHAT DO YOU DO THEN? Here's what I mean:
For the sake of arguement, let's say I have worked on the same family of birds for 25 years. I have followed the most stringent in-breeding program possible and culled extremely hard. By doing so, I now have a family of birds that are near-perfect in almost every way, (I know that's not possible but I want to make a point here). Like I said, "ALMOST" everyway except one little area that was important enough that I was #2 in the World Cup instead of #1. It doesn't matter what the area is for the sake of this question so let's not focus on that. In any event, having spent so much time with my birds and on my breeding program, I KNOW that this one little area does not exist within my family of birds but to improve them so that I can be #1 in the World Cup next year, I must have it.
WHAT DO I DO THEN? Is it at that point that I bring in a bird who excels at breeding that particular trait from a different family of birds? (Again, I know that doesn't guarantee that it will produce that trait when bred with my family but for the sake of the question at hand let's say that's the only alternative to introduce that trait more strongly into MY family).
If what is not there cannot be improved upon, how do you improve upon it? I realize my example is extreme and not realistic necessarily but what I'm trying to learn from all of you with much more experience is what the next step would be. What would you do to get that trait into your family? Seems to me you'd have to go outside of your own family. However, most posts I've read seem to infer that bringing in outside birds will cause more problems than good. So if you don't have that trait in your birds, what the heck are you supposed to do to get it? What say ye?
Thanks in advance!
Darin
Last Edited by Double D on Sep 25, 2005 8:43 PM
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Velo99
92 posts
Sep 26, 2005
5:11 PM
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It is my opinion that after that length of time why would you bring in an outcross? When you bring in the good traits you also bring in the bad. I personally feel that would set your program back a long way. I would look within my own family. Try some cousin matings from across the tracks instead of outcrosing. If you can`t make it up within your gene pool,try different management techniques. There are a multitude of ways to bring out the missing trait;but is there time?
You are talking about a hypothetical lifetime of work to get all you can out of a family of birds. Thinking like that is demonstrating a devotion to your program. Keep it up. It will pay off in the end.
yits
Kenny
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
159 posts
Sep 26, 2005
8:40 PM
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I believe the answers will vary greatly on this topic D.
But ultimately I think, based on your scenario, it would greatly depend on what you figure the "missing trait" really is. If you feel your family is missing frequency, you can find that in your own stock through knowledge of what pairs throw birds that rolled short and a lot and were always chasing after the kit.
If it was something like say wing position (style), after so long with that family, chances would be good that the wing style characteristic would be pretty much set and thus, an outcross to a similar family which posessed the better style would be highly advocated.
You'll find just as many guys who will admit they improved their birds by bringing in a bird or birds from another family as you will those who strickly adhere to a closed-loft method.
Brian.
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Alohazona
63 posts
Sep 26, 2005
8:55 PM
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I agree with V,some of your best matings can be cousins,for bringing in what you want,Of course if what you want is close up,theres no law against breeding close,eventually once going out a couple generations,it makes sense to come back in close to see what worked out and what did not,
Every year whether you breed 50 or 100 birds there will be,between 2 to 4 birds that will bring you closer to what your looking for,maybe less,maybe more,some will be stockable some will remain kitbirds.When you have between 16 to 25 of these birds,appro.3 to 5 years of work,you should be putting up a kit of exceptional performers.Until then,and even after that, these birds are the stepping stones, of your family of rollers.As for outcrosses,I have done it,with favorable results,to bring in depth to shorter more frequent workers,there were some with to much heat,chronic bumpers,the result, 4 rock solid[so far]performers of 15 bred,that gave me the depth I was looking for,good frequency as well.So out crossing is not death to your family per say,thats while you are in the early stages of locking in the desireable attributes that leads to the performance you are looking for.The detriment is done later,once these qualities are locked in, and predictable to a degree,you just work to hard getting there.Just my opinion.ALOHA,Todd
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Shaun
99 posts
Sep 27, 2005
8:30 AM
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Hey, I'm not too further forward than Darin in this roller thing, but I've studied an awful lot and the hypothetical picture which Darin has painted will be all too familiar to many a flyer. Back in the 1950s, Pensom and his contemporaries used to perform all manner of outcrossing - sometimes with street pigeons (commies)!
There's always the risk of pulling in bad traits along with the good, but the experienced handler will be well aware of the negatives and will breed accordingly. If you look at any of the well-known flyers over the past few decades, their foundation stock will invariably have been made up of different families of birds. George Mason, for example, openly admits that his stock was derived from three main families and he will have introduced the occasional outcross from time to time, over the years, hopefully to consolidate strengths and eliminate weaknesses.
Pete Handy (also from England) who won the 2004 World Cup, openly acknowledges that his birds are 'mongrels'. He's experimented with birds from many an established loft and continues to do so. I feel, therefore, the concept of having to stick solely with one family year after year, not daring to introducing an outcross, has never been the case, certainly in England.
Shaun
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J_Star
59 posts
Sep 27, 2005
11:35 AM
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My 2 cents is I truly believe that you can mix and match if you are looking to bring in some traits to your family of rollers, but you should expect to cull a lot until that special one you are looking for comes out. Then cross that special one with his/her parent. The best offspring of that mating then you can cross with your family to introduce the better genes to your own family. Also expect that if the original pairing or the offspring of that pairing did not work out, the need to cull the entire line is deemed appropriate. Otherwise, you will end up introducing undesirable traits to your own family of rollers and the side effect will show itself sooner or later.
Again, you need to start with an outstanding family of rollers to begin with. The outcross bird that you are introducing better have all the goods you are looking for. Otherwise, you are just wasting your time and shaving off many years from achieving the desired results to enhance the performance of your breed.
Jay
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motherlodelofts
295 posts
Sep 27, 2005
4:13 PM
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If you need to outcross than chances are you are down breeding the cross.
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Alohazona
64 posts
Sep 28, 2005
9:32 AM
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Scott,what would it matter?as long as the desired traits are being picked up with a reasonably fair percentage,unless the trait is not being passed on with future breeding of the cross and subsaquently stopped at the cross?I haven't got that far.can you shed some light on this?Aloha,Todd
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siddiqir
47 posts
Sep 28, 2005
10:18 AM
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Scott, what if two well known families are crossed together. Since those two families being inbreed for years and mostly all bad trait being taken out with years of work, would that corss bring good surprise?
I am just wondering even good families which being inbreeds for years still produce culls (not kitting, come in early, roll down, etc...) so I guess even if fancier inbreed for years there will be still culls (may be low %).
My guess is there will be same results doing inbreed or cross breed two well known good working families
Just my thoughts
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Velo99
94 posts
Sep 28, 2005
6:53 PM
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Sid,
I would think unless the outcross was from a family as tighly bred as the one in question;I would be leery of what is in the genetic storeroom. I think you answered your own question from the other perspective.
yits
v99
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
467 posts
Sep 29, 2005
2:40 AM
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I would outcross to a Barn pigeon if it had a trait I needed in my breeding program if I couldn,t find it anywhere else.
If you don,t have what you are looking for how else can you get it unless you outcross?
Once you have the trait into your family then you have to breed out any thing that came along with it.
There is a lot of good families of rollers in the U.S. and if something is missing in your family you shouldn,t have a problem of finding a good outcross.It may not always work but if it is something you really need just keep at it untill you find the right outcross.David
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motherlodelofts
297 posts
Sep 29, 2005
9:03 AM
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I wouldn't cross a barn pigeon or one of mixed blood into anything.
Far to many spend thier time chasing birds just to hope to find greener grass , at time's it is right in front of their noses , to many expect to much to fast.
There are several families around the country that carry everything that is needed allready in the gene pool , and then there are some that just don't learn how to pull the potential out of thier birds through the breeding loft and training.
Then there are some families that are just down right poor qaulity due to either to hot and or just poor qaulity of roll both of which generally go hand in hand.
Generally it is the latter that are looking for an outcross, and usually in order to do so they down breed a qaulity cross into thier poorer family of birds and try to cover up the faults.
My best advise is to not fall in love with the birds that you start with until you truelly understand what a good bird is , once you learn this (if you can) and you are able to get your hands on some topshelf birds don't down breed them into a poor qaulity family , if the birds on your property don't allready carry the entire package within the gene pool than you can consider them mediocre at best.
In order to move forward above all you "MUST" be realistic , the kicker is that no matter how good the birds, without getting at least a basic grasp on training and management then it doesn't matter how good the birds are it will be rare to see potential.
What it boils down to is a contsant learning process that doesn't happen overnight.
Just breeding numbers only brings up the qauntiy of poor or mediocre birds.
Right now I am evaluating my stock as far as birds that truely produce qaulity off Spring , it puts me down to 6 cock and 9 hens, not all of the hens are poven breeders yet,the cocks are.
I have the capacity to breed 13 pair in individuals , I will stock 2-3 more cocks out of my team after the fall fly , these will be expermental to see who produces (if any).
I will never go back to the 13 pair, why ? because overall my percentages of true qaulity birds automaticly goes down which in turn holds back the better birds, (limiting breeding pairs is kinda like a qaulity control measure), also to be honest I have never seen a loft where there is an abundance of breeding pairs with a huge number of birds being turned out like a breeding factory where the over all qaulity matches the qaunity bred, such lofts are just breeding pigeons for the numbers and it is a given that qaulity birds will be buried deep, that is if it was to be had in the first place.
So what is my point here ? not sure I started rambling LOL oh yea, breed for a purpose out of your best.
And BUILD your lofts stud , and that might be useing only three birds and everything else that you normaly breed out of as fosters , if you aint got those,then dump everything on the property and then search out the goods and start over again. Been there and done that myself.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Sep 29, 2005 9:58 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
469 posts
Sep 29, 2005
1:41 PM
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Scott.Are you saying you can,t take a family of rollers that are not top shelf rollers and make them into top shelf rollers? David
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motherlodelofts
300 posts
Sep 29, 2005
1:56 PM
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Dave, can you make chicken soup out of chicken shit ? No matter what you put in it , it will still have a lingering taste of chicken shit.
Scott
I shoulda been a poet LOL
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Sep 29, 2005 1:57 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
471 posts
Sep 29, 2005
2:13 PM
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Scott.Have you ever ate chicken crap?Maybe it tastes good.
I still stand firm that you can produce excellent rollers by outcrossing to other families.I have done it with good results. David
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motherlodelofts
301 posts
Sep 29, 2005
2:39 PM
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Dave it is all about trying to achieve solid percentages of consistant birds that breed the same.
Can you breed good birds from crosses ? yes
Can you breed a consistant producing family by covering up faults of a poor family though ? no , at least not without a huge investment of time and frustration , and that is only if you can keep from crossing in more which is doubtful otherwise this road wouldn't have been taken in the first place.
Dave I have done all of this including breeding the numbers , once I quit doing it is when I started making huge leaps forward .
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Sep 29, 2005 2:52 PM
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Ballrollers
83 posts
Sep 29, 2005
2:53 PM
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Scott and David, You may be disagreeing about degrees here. It's usually not a matter of having pure chicken shit birds. If they are, then they need to go; and that may take some time to figure out. But maybe all you need is a lttle improvement in some aspect of performance that you would like to see. If the birds are crap, and need improvement in every aspect of performance, then sure, bail out and start over. If you are happy with many aspects of performance but want some improvement in an area, it seems to me that it may be a long road to stumble on it within the family. On the other hand, it may also be a long road to introduce another family in the hopes of bringing in and producing the desireable trait along with all the negatives. Remember, Joe Bob's philosphy has been a combination of both, and he has made it work for him, over the past twenty years or so. When making every effort to breed best to best didn't produce the desired improvement in some quality of performance or type, he did not hesitate to import it via an outcross via a particular bird that he liked. And I am talking about subtle performance or type traits, not glaring faults. Yet he never felt the need to throw out the basic family which had the majority of the performance traits that he wanted. If I understand you David, that is the philosohy that you are using with your program. Correct? YITS Cliff
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
472 posts
Sep 29, 2005
3:02 PM
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Scott.I agree you can,t keep covering up the faults.You have to bring them to the surface and get rid of them.I see where you are coming from and if you don,t have the time to pursue these things it is not worth it.It is a big part of rollers that I enjoy.It is very rewarding to work on the different projects I have going on thruout the year and watch them develop into good rollers.Granted a lot of disapointments are in the mix too.But it is like competing.You just have to keep trying.And if I get serious about competing I won,t have time to play around with a lot I do now.This competing stuff is hard work.LOL.David
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Shaun
101 posts
Sep 30, 2005
2:37 AM
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Scott, I recall you telling me that Graham Dexter had pulled in one or two birds from Dave Moseley. Surely, that's what this is all about. Graham, no doubt, had excellent birds, but there must have been either something missing or some element which was diminishing, which he wanted to replenish. So, he went to another successful loft to try and find it. I don't know if it succeeded, but it does show that even the most experienced, will pull in birds from elsewhere, on occasion.
I also recall that Dexter and Mason used to mate certain birds together. Again, I don't know how it panned out but clearly, they both thought it would be a useful experiment.
There's something else I remember reading, which might play a part in this. I think it was that heavy-duty Kowalski book. It was stressed that with all performance beasties, there's a marked tendency for the species/strain to return to average over a time, given half a chance. In other words, if the handler doesn't keep a very close eye on things with selective breeding, etc, the gene pool could well diminish over time.
After pondering on this, I then read other bits on the subject of outcrossing and it did make sense. It seems that over time, a number of flyers had noticed a diminishing of the very traits which their strain had once had in abundance. To get back to where they once were (as opposed to looking for something different), they would pull in some fresh blood with the same traits, often just a single bird from another loft. That bird might have been borrowed or it might have been taken on permanently, to be used sparingly when there was a need to replenish those desirable traits, if and when they started to wane.
So, it seems an outcross isn't necessarily brought in to give the strain something different, but sometimes to replenish good traits which are starting to slide, thus avoiding nature's tendency to resort to average.
Hey, our English royal family don't bring in any old hounds when they marry; they look for upper class, blue-blooded totty. So, you see there's a need for outcrossing everywhere!
Shaun
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Velo99
95 posts
Sep 30, 2005
5:36 AM
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Hey Guys,
This was a hypothetical breeding program,years in development. I believe that most of us would be a bit more cautious in what we introduce into our program. Pensom was the premier outcrosser. He felt Like Dave in the presumption of outcrossing in a trait was worth the risk of polluting his gene pool. I feel that the birds we have now are probably far superior to those birds. We Have reaped the benefits of those early birds with families like the Jacs and Plonas. The management/breeding skills we have developed are more refined than those of yesteryear. Then there is the internet, we have instant communication with fellow fanciers all over the world. I believe we are the keepers of the next generation of rollers. How much better can we make them?
YITS
v99
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motherlodelofts
305 posts
Sep 30, 2005
7:27 AM
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Shaun the way I understand it Dexter brought in far more than one or two birds and it wasn't for crossing.
You will find "many" like Dexter in this sport that no matter how long they are in in there is a constant flow of other peoples birds through their lofts.
I might add also that Mosley has been working his family for over 30 years and he started with 6 pair from an established solid family.
Those that have a constant flow of "others" birds generall have very limited success, few actualy cross for a reason other than just to do it or to bring up mediocre birds , most just follow the grass must be greener mentality though.
There are a few people that truely know what they are doing that will use a true family to tweak some details within thier own family , and there have been successul families built through the use of different blood.
Generally you will find that when this is done that the two families are fairly close and not far from the same tree at all and is more like a far up linebred and if that cross is succesful it ends there or fresh blood is used for one or the other by keeping pure lines of both , or it may even a complete fusion, but at some point they "must" hit a point of becoming "one".
For one, training and managing these birds is such a huge huge part of flying these birds succesfully on a consistant basis that you must have the birds that you are breeding all on the same page as much as possible.
Once you have that on a fairly consistant level you are able to learn your birds which is another huge huge advantage.
I can't even begin to describe how important it is to learn and understand "your" birds.
Different families can be as different as night and day as far as feed , how flown, how they react to different things, how they come in and the little details that you learn to read.
Breeding many families and crossing for the most part creates a cluster fork (been there)
As "I" have progressed I can look back and know that such breeding practices is a road to no where.
There hits a point when things are right that you just know that everything you need to work with is allready on your property , at that point other people can hand you a bird and no matter how good it is you just have no use for it within your breeding program and all it will do is screw up your breeding game plans. This is the point that you work to achieve .
If you feel that what you have cannot cut the mustard than by all means keep searching , if years down the road you are still seaching out birds than you may want to rethink what you are doing wrong.
Most are going to do what ever they are going to do, just food for thought here.
Just my opinion
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Sep 30, 2005 8:48 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
478 posts
Sep 30, 2005
10:15 AM
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Scott.I just am not buying into your way of thinking.I think you are into keeping your rollers so pure that you are missing out on other things.But if that is the way you believe then that is your choice.I have a choice and untill I see different results than what I am seeing I will believe my way.Maybe my success expectations are not as high as yours but I am enjoying the rollers as I go along.Show me 4 good rollers in the air from 4 different families and I will show you a kit of good rollers in time.David
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Shaun
102 posts
Sep 30, 2005
11:48 AM
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Scott, after I read the archives of this forum (Jeez, it took an age, but would recommend it to anyone new), I had you down as a purist. Now, that's not the criticism it might seem. If I can give you another guitarist analogy - back in the 'old days', all that came between an electric guitar and an amplifier, was a guitar lead (cord). A very fine sound that could make. Then it was decided to tinker and 'progress' that basic sound. Nowadays, what often comes between the guitar and the amplifier is a myriad of effects, to colour the sound. Whether or not that sound is an improvement, is open to conjecture. I tend to fall between the two guitarist camps, as indeed I find myself doing with rollers. For example, I love the colours of my Masons, which seemingly have been bred with this aspect at least partially in mind. However, the two birds which perform the best for me are a simple chequer w/f and a red w/f. I couldn't give a stuff which colour performs best, but when I observe the antics of all the birds in the lofts, it is nice to see a bit of colour on display. So, there I am: part purist and part 'oh, I do love the pretty colours'.
From the breeding perspective, for every diehard roller purist who adopts the 'if ain't broke, don't fix it' approach, there are the equivalent who claim to advance the sport beyond the simple 'guitar + cord' days of yore.
For a relative novice, like me, who is old and ugly enough to absorb a great deal, it cannot be denied that there are many different 'roller' ways of achieving the same aim. For every successful purist, there's someone else stretching the envelope with new methods. There is no right and wrong - only different approaches. What works for one, may be a disaster for someone else.
I hear what you say about Dexter, but I feel I must defend his reputation and remind people that in England, he had phenomenal successes over many years, which others craved to emulate and which, no doubt, prompted him to write his fine book. I'm not sure why things aren't what they once were, though he has since moved from England to Portugal. I very much doubt, with his vast experience, that he's ever had the need to pull in birds from here, there and everywhere in order to improve his incumbent stock. That, to me, just sounds like roller gossip.
Pete Handy, who won the world cup last year, openly acknowledges that his birds are 'mongrels', as he's experimented with many a strain over a good number of years, and continues to do right now. He didn't want me to bid in the recent World Cup auction, for a pair of his youngsters, for the simple reason that no matter how good or bad they turned out to be, Pete was experimenting and could be moving in a completely different direction in the not too distant future. I, therefore, probably wouldn't have been able to go back to him for the same type of birds, should I have wanted to. I don't think that there can be any more proof of the need for some to experiment and outcross than that.
Scott, you were the first to lead me to believe that good birds are only the starting point and that the rest is down to handling. Pete Handy has emphasised your point wonderfully. Here's a man who has refused to settle with any particular strain, but who has seen strengths and weaknesses in them, then adapted them to suit his purpose. In the same year he won the World Cup, he then went on to win Graham Dexter's much coveted All England Roller Club trophy. And all based on mongrel birds. Surely, that's a lesson to all of us, purists or not.
Shaun
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motherlodelofts
306 posts
Sep 30, 2005
12:24 PM
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Shaun I would reserve opinion on this matter for a while, we have all expermented with different families and most continue doing so to a small degree on the side.
Dave , enjoy and good luck !!!!
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Sep 30, 2005 12:27 PM
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Shaun
103 posts
Sep 30, 2005
12:59 PM
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Scott, I've read your thoughts again and am able to appreciate some words of wisdom. You do recognise that there have doubtless been successful outcrossings, but that such experiments are riddled with risks that the uninitiated should only take on with great caution. Point taken.
You know what I would love to learn? Wouldn't it be great to line up all the longstanding successful flyers over the last few decades and ask them questions along the following lines:
1. Have you used any outcrosses?
2. Assuming you did, what were the reasons?
3. Which outcrosses did you use, and why?
4. How often have you outcrossed?
5. What were your outcrossing successes and failures?
6. What proportion of your current successful breeding stock is due to a) your existing family of rollers; b) the effects of the subsequent outcrosses?
7. Would you do the same things again? If so, why? If not, why not?
Good topic for a book, methinks.
Shaun
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motherlodelofts
309 posts
Sep 30, 2005
4:46 PM
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No Dave what I am doing is honing around my best, of which produce my best, and my best don't come in large numbers nor does anyone else's , and my best carry the entire package already.
My focus is clear and I have already been one the road that you defend. good luck
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Sep 30, 2005 4:48 PM
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Mongrel Lofts
29 posts
Sep 30, 2005
7:01 PM
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Pete Handy, who won the world cup last year, openly acknowledges that his birds are 'mongrels', as he's experimented with many a strain over a good number of years, and continues to do right now.
Shaun,
you guys over in England have no idea what we call a Mongrel over here in the states. At least not when pertaining to Birmingham rollers. Shaun, Mongrel is a term reserved for those rollers, crossed onto other pigeon breeds, such as Modena, Swallow, Ice Pigeon and the likes, to get a color, factor or pattern. These Cross bred colored rollers are what we call Mongrels. Now you can straighten me out here if you like, but I don't think Pete Handy messes with birds of this breeding or does he? I think Pete and George Mason for that matter, fly pure rollers, Not Mongrels. This is the confusion, some tend to think if you have rollers from Mason and breed them on rollers from Dexter, you are cross breeding and making Mongrels. No, this is just crossing families of rollers. Its the crossing of two different breeds of pigeons, that makes a colored bred Mongrel over here in the states.. Ice pigeon x roller.. You get the point. Just wanted to try to clear that up for you mate.. Mongrel Lofts
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big al
127 posts
Sep 30, 2005
7:03 PM
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Hey guys...
Something interesting crossed my mind today regarding the improvement of the Birmingham Roller. We hear a lot of famous names of rollermen from today and yesterday. Some say the rollers of yesterday were better, some say they were just as good way back when as the ones today, some say today's rollers are faster, some say today we're more knowledgable. I even have an opinion about all that!! LOL!! However, for now I'd like to know how much better you think the best of the best can get? (In terms of rollers) In other words... This is the year 2005. Is it just our overall knowledge of feeding, breeding and genetics that's improved? Or have the birds gotten better and if they indeed have, how much better can the best of the best get at this point in time?
Have any of you seen birds that made you think...
"Thats it!" You can't improve on that!"----------
How much closer are we today to perfection?
Just food for thought! :-)
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See you in the roll!
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
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motherlodelofts
310 posts
Sep 30, 2005
10:18 PM
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Al, they can only do so much and be able to handle it. Are they better ? no . are thy worse ? doubtful
The question is are there more good birds today ?
I know one thing , as a kid I never saw or had what I see and have today.
It is a complicated breed, to the point where many think that flying and breeding is nothing short of a crap shoot. It is anything but , and that is what I love about these little turkeys, it keeps me thinking , when you get into writings of Neible on kit mechanics or Pensom on breeding and the whats and whys of the Bimingham Roller you sence just how shallow most of us are when it come's to these complicated birds.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Sep 30, 2005 10:30 PM
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Shaun
106 posts
Sep 30, 2005
10:19 PM
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Ken, of course I/we Englanders appreciate the true meaning of mongrel - for any species, not just rollers. It's used somewhat tongue in cheek where a given loft hasn't pursued roller breeding with a very limited number of strains, but more where the breeder - like Pete Handy - has experimented with many different strains.
I'm using 'mongrel' in the context of this particular post about outcrossing, so as to highlight the fact that many experienced flyers are quite prepared to experiment with different strains of birds.
And, in terms of English flyers crossing into different breeds of pigeon, for the vast majority, that's a complete no-no and always has been.
Shaun
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Mongrel Lofts
31 posts
Oct 01, 2005
6:22 AM
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And, in terms of English flyers crossing into different breeds of pigeon, for the vast majority, that's a complete no-no and always has been.
Shaun
Hi Shaun,
Always has been over here also until the show guys started doing it. They started crossing holly croppers and Modenas on the roller to get those big bodies and heads. Then the hobby went crazy for colors and started breeding the roller to any breed with an odd color. Then breeding back to rollers while trying to keep the odd feather or color if you will. Its now a cancer on the breed in my opinion. I just wanted to make sure people who read your thread, didn't think the English were crossing Breeds and not just families of rollers. Mongrel Lofts
Last Edited by Mongrel Lofts on Oct 01, 2005 6:33 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
480 posts
Oct 01, 2005
8:53 AM
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I guess Parlor Rollers are still in the Birmingham family and not a seperate breed? David
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Shaun
109 posts
Oct 01, 2005
9:18 AM
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Ken, Pete Handy told me that some crossing did go on in England many, many years ago. Dave correctly mentioned that Ernie Stratford (great flyer, now deceased) was doing some experimenting, but of the well-known flyers of the time, he was the only one who - shall we say, owned up to it.
I think all roller guys have to acknowledge that in the Pensom days, there was some mongrelisation, but finally a standard was reached and has continued for 50 years or so. Nowadays, in England, it would be anathema to breed anything other than to that established 'pure' standard. After all, if it ain't broke...
England is about the size of one of the US states, so word of any hanky panky would get around quickly. It's probably that as much as anything else which has ensured the purity of the roller stock.
Even the fairly poor quality birds I obtained from my first seller, before I got the Masons, conformed to the usual colour standards. So, I've not seen any odd colours at all.
I guess that when you're the size of a continent, like the US and flyers can be thousands of miles apart, it's much more difficult to 'police' the roller breed.
Shaun
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
481 posts
Oct 01, 2005
10:08 AM
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Shaun.Don,t you think ole Ernie was on to some secret here.LOL. David
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motherlodelofts
312 posts
Oct 01, 2005
11:27 AM
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No Dave I think that he was doing no more than fooling around and I would venture to say it was nothing more than playing around behind the loft the same kind of stuff many of us did as kids.
It doesn't take much knowledge of these birds to know that doing such makes no sence .
It is easy enough to breed these birds with "Too" much roll as it is and even kids that ride the small bus can do it.
who knows if this blood was spead around though , doubtful, to many who's whole goal was betterment of the breed and not playing childish game's of crossing up breeds.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 01, 2005 11:32 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
483 posts
Oct 01, 2005
12:30 PM
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Scott.Ernie said he worked on this project for 10 years.He raised a champion from doing this.One that couldn,t be touched in rolling.Winning about everything it was entered in.Ernie also earned the title of "Exporter of the Century".Exporting rollers all around the world.Now does this sound like someone just playing behind the barn.You fellows crack me up the way you try and cover everything up.It was done then and it is done now.Just no one will openly say so.The simple fact is you can raise good rollers if you dedicate enough time in doing so either by crossing families or keeping them Pure.
Take your rollers for example.You say you would never cross another family into your birds.Yet after all these years of keeping your family Pure you still are raising a good percentage of rollers that don,t stand up to the test.It would seem to me that keeping them Pure is not doing much better than mixing families.My opinion and one I am sticking to. David
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Shaun
110 posts
Oct 01, 2005
2:40 PM
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Dave and Scott, you're like an old married couple, bitching away, scoring points over each other, whenever you get the opportunity. I've come to recognise this by reading every post on this forum, which took an age and had my wife referring to me as a 'saddo'. What she found particularly funny was a US guy responding to one of my posts just before he was off to bed for the night, whilst I (due to the time difference) had already been to bed and was up the next morning sitting stark naked at my computer. Is this too much information?
Anyhow, going back to all the posts about colour, cross-breeding and "what the hell is a true Birmingham Roller, anyway" - and, I'm trying desperately not to take sides here - there's a couple of burning questions I've been meaning to ask, which you two especially, might like to answer.
Forgive me if this seems anti-US roller guys; it's not meant to be, as it's just my, perhaps simplistic, observations.
Here in the UK, we have the Kennel Club for dogs. Each year, we have a national competition for the various breeds, which is televised nationally and doggy people get very excited about; it's called Crufts. So, we seem to know our dogs. Take the British bulldog. It was originally a cross between this and that. Also, take my bullmastiff; it was also originally (I know this one) a cross between a bulldog and an English mastiff. However, in order for any breed to be accepted by the Kennel Club (the governing body), the very cross-breeding had to stop at some point, by which time the consensus was - "Holy shit, this is perfection; we can't take this any further without bastardising it. So, from this day forth, we name this the bulldog", or whatever.
Well, since then, the Americans have come up with their own version of the bulldog - and despite the fact that I've met a very nice specimen in Florida, whilst on holiday, back in England - the home of the original bulldog - the American version simply isn't officially recognised. Maybe in time to come, it will be - but, for the time being, it's a mongrel.
What I find strange is that some are content to settle with a standard at some point in the development of a species/strain. This consensus, surely, has to come about because the majority feel that it's as good as it gets. But, then others wish to carry on with the 'development' and see absolutely no reason to conform to any agreed standard.
Which brings me back to the roller. You US guys harp on about Penson far more than us UK people do. He was just one of many guys around at the time who was cool with rollers. However, we recognise that he was able to articulate the whole thing better than his contemporaries and, ultimately, took his 'vision' over to you guys in the US.
Right, after all that waffling, here's my question: Why is it that the guys in England (apart from the odd experiment here and there) have stuck pretty rigidly to an accepted standard for a good five decades, yet many US guys argue forcefully that there is no accepted standard and that rollers are there for the taking in terms of the same natural progression which clearly had taken place for a couple of centuries prior to Mr Pensom?
Why are we English so 'purist' about this, whilst many in the US are unwilling to accept that the standard ever stood still enough to reach a point of consensus at which future development would cease?
Shaun
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motherlodelofts
314 posts
Oct 02, 2005
7:32 AM
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Dave ,you say that crosses (of breeds) have been made and are still being made today but no one's talking about it.
Dave you are correct, but for the new guys they need to understand that this is not done by the mainstream nor by anyone that is taken serious and there are many lofts accross the country that breed and fly the real deal and would never allow such a bird in.
The crossing of breeds are and have been for the so called rare color , where color is the focal point you can pretty well bet they are these type of birds.
As for the "Parlor" cross , again it makes no sence as birds with too much roll are easy enough to breed and or aquire. But that might explain one good one in ten years.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 02, 2005 8:49 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
484 posts
Oct 02, 2005
10:03 AM
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Scott.It was one Champion in 10 years.He didn,t say how many good ones he raised in the same 10 years.
Anyway just trying to prove there is two sides to the story.LOL
Myself I have enough trouble worrying about the Finals in 2 weeks.And here you are talking about going fishing.LOL.When do you fellows fly? David
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motherlodelofts
318 posts
Oct 02, 2005
5:48 PM
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Dave we fly our regionals weekend after next, and then the finals for us are two weeks later.
I will be setting up my birds with the finals in mind , in other words I want to put them at a point to qaulify but I don't want them to good or they will be harder to get right for the finals.
Kind of a juggle LOL , This team is one that I am happy with so I have to try and play my cards right with them, they are very capable of doing the job if everything falls into place (note "if" lol ).
Nobody knows anything about this finals judge , I met him at the convention and he told me that they better be spinning to score.
I think that he's one to not worry what people think or whether he hurts feelings or not , these personalitys generaly make good judges.
Dave keep in mind that many time's there is a huge difference between finals judges and regional judges , finals judges usually go in with the attitude that he's looking for the best in the country so they tend to make the fliers work for it.
Hard to say at this point, what ever happens good luck and enjoy !!
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 02, 2005 5:50 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
485 posts
Oct 02, 2005
6:42 PM
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Scott.Good Luck to you too.For me it is a lot of enjoyment getting to meet everyone.As you know I am stuck here all alone.I may even hold off flying my kit for awhile just to keep the fellows here longer.LOL.Or at least untill they tell me some of their secrets.The Coffee Pot will be on so if you want to catch a flight to Harrisburg on the 13th Elric will pick you up.Just kiddin.Maybe someday we can meet.I done got the word you are a good fellow to spend time with.LOL.Again Good Luck and don,t mess up like the last time.David
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Velo99
99 posts
Oct 03, 2005
5:28 AM
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Hey Scott,
Do you remember a thread a while back when we were discussing judges and standards? I stated the same thing you did about judging being at a different level in the finals,and was roundly chastised. Hmmmm seems things have changed.
v99
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motherlodelofts
321 posts
Oct 03, 2005
6:56 AM
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Nothings changed as far as I go V, Usually (not aways) the finals judge is a better judge than many that judged various regions.
Scott
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Richard A.
70 posts
Oct 06, 2005
8:17 PM
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I have outcrossed several times through the years and have not lost, but for the most part, have gained. I have always bred for speed, and I do believe that by outcrossing selectively, it is not so difficult to maintain a real good level of velocity. My experience with inbreeding is that a person can develope a good stock of rollers with good frequency etc., but the velocity will suffer somewhat.
Richard A.
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motherlodelofts
323 posts
Oct 06, 2005
9:39 PM
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Richard, I have seen the opposite results and ended up with inconsistacys as far as birds all over the board, not all birds can inbreed or be brought in tight. But within inbred lines there must be a scource for fresh blood , that blood comes from linebreeding from within the family. A tight family doesn't evolve around straight inbreeding, and straight inbreeding alone is not the only breeding tool, nor should it be.
As for the speed , no loss at all and in fact the percentages of such birds have gone up as the whole point is to bring up the percentages of good one's.
One of the biggest advantages is learning the charactoristics of your birds in and out .
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 06, 2005 9:46 PM
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fhtfire
221 posts
Oct 06, 2005
9:48 PM
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I just want to clear up something that I think is getting lost in the confusion...LOL! I have been reading the posts on outcrosses and I see that some people are confusing outcrossing from another line of birmingham roller and outcrossing with a whole nother breed just for color. Now...outcrossing with another strain can be done....Thank you for your comment Richard A! Outcrossing from another strain can hold the key to success...but has to be done with care...and time. Now...what Scott does not agree with is outcrossing with another breed....Most of us agree with him! Just for a pretty color...not thanks... I am not going to argue the color thing again...because everyone knows where I stand...ROLL only....I like colorful birds...if the color is not brought in from an archangel(just an example).....but if it rolls and is purple and looks like a roller in every way....great......The mainstream is NOT bringing in other breeds to there lofts....some are bringing in other strains and crossing....just my 2 cents....Good luck to all in the fall fly....man....my birds are still in the molt....4 came down after about 10 minutes....and they are usually my most consistant birds...They are on there last feather....right now...so they are hurting.....I may have to pull them from the team....I wish the fall fly could have been a month ago for me...LOL!
rock and ROLL!
Paul FUllerton
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motherlodelofts
324 posts
Oct 07, 2005
7:26 AM
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No Paul, I am talking about the continual bringing in of other birds (families) and criss crossing everything up.
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siddiqir
63 posts
Oct 07, 2005
10:32 AM
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I believe there is nothing wrong crossing Birmingham to Birmingham if you know your family of birds lacks some thing. Now the problem is after that cross you need to inbreed real tight to obtain best results (time is factor - may end up putting years of work) but only way to improve stock once you get the thing which was missing in the family is to do inbreed.
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fhtfire
222 posts
Oct 07, 2005
10:57 AM
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Sorry Scott....I guess I am the one confused..LOL! Ok everyone...forget my last post....I agree with you Scott...bringing in different families all the time...would screw things up...What is your feeling on bringing in another family every long now and then....Let me know what you think.
rock and ROLL
Paul FUllerton
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scotty
2 posts
Oct 08, 2005
10:19 PM
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Try a kick ass outcross, Then bring the best of what you breed back in.-mike
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