racer57
4 posts
Oct 07, 2005
12:32 AM
|
im curious to hear your opinions on the differences between the birmingham roller vs. the american roller,,why do so many think the birmingham is better???
|
J_Star
69 posts
Oct 07, 2005
5:00 AM
|
Can you find American Rollers anywhere? If you can, then you can judge them.
Jay
|
siddiqir
64 posts
Oct 07, 2005
10:40 AM
|
American rollers got died. They were famous at the end of 18th century and being of 19th. We end up with Birmingham Rollers; I think Birmingham rollers are better because they're still around
|
Alan Bliven
245 posts
Oct 07, 2005
11:11 AM
|
Better for what? Judged against what standard? If you judge them against Birmingham competition standards than the Birmingham outshines the American by a long shot.
But if you judge a Birmingham against what an American Roller is supposed to do, then best Birmingham's in the world are only culls.
You can be the only judge of that. It depends on what you like in a performance Roller.
What's the difference? The American flies higher, has greater endurance, is a much deeper spinner but with less frequency and not as tight of a kitter.
Then there's a few versions of the American Roller and all are different. There's the North American Highflying Roller, the Fireball Roller and the American (Performing) Roller. All American Rollers have had many other breeds crossed into them through the years to enhance their skills. But then I can't say all Birmingham blood is from England, but that's another story.
There's a new national Roller club that caters to all breeds of Rollers. But of course the Birmingham is the most popular with the members. It's called The National Performing Roller Assoc. If you are interested in learning more about other Roller breeds they are at: http://www.performingrollers.com/ and check out the message board, it has a lot written on other breeds of Rollers. It's at: http://users.boardnation.com/~performing_rollers
----------
Alan
|
George Ruiz
59 posts
Oct 07, 2005
11:33 AM
|
Hi Alan
Have you flown American Rollers and Fireballs and High Flyer rollers?,or are you going by what you read in books about the different styles of the American, Fireball, and Birmingham Roller .
Im just courious becuase as far back as I can remember the Birmingham Roller has been supreme in performance compared to all other birds that roll.
George
Last Edited by George Ruiz on Oct 07, 2005 11:38 AM
|
siddiqir
66 posts
Oct 07, 2005
11:47 AM
|
Hi Alan, TRUE Birmingham are the best they have every thing (Kitting, Tight Rolling, Work together, fly right time and at right height).
I also thought that fireballs and American Rollers and American highflier rollers are some what equal to Birmingham but that is not the case.
I have spoke to people which have true fireball, American Rollers and AHFRs blood in state of New Jersey and they still fly them but they are not even close to TURE Birmingham Rollers....
Fireballs, American Rollers and AHFRs share same charaistic what you have mentioned and they are mixture of Birmingham & Whittingham and I believe high fly tipplers. Original Blood came from UK even though they called American Rollers but their origin is UK...
Fireballs, American Rollers and AHFRs will only make you feel good and exciting on papers.
|
Alan Bliven
246 posts
Oct 07, 2005
12:57 PM
|
I did a little page on my website of Bill Latham and Charlie Hubbs' North American Highflying Rollers. If you are interested, it's at: http://www.cichlidlovers.com/birds_nahfr.htm
----------
Alan
|
Alan Bliven
247 posts
Oct 07, 2005
2:32 PM
|
Tony, the owner of this site has some articles written on the American Rollers posted on this site. I assume he advocates what's written in them or he wouldn't post them. They can be found at http://www.roller-pigeon.com/articles/article/862632/7196.htm
----------
Alan
|
Bill from NJ
4 posts
Oct 07, 2005
5:37 PM
|
Normally I sit back and just read all of the posts here at this site. I do this to learn, to learn about what others do to improve their pigeons. I learn about the different types of families, feedings, medications, breeding styles, etc.
I happen upon this question asking which is better, the Birmingham or the American Roller?
Alan said it perfectly... "Better?,For what?"
Maybe I can shed a little light on the subject of the American Roller.
The American Roller is a high flying, eg. up to and including 1000 feet plus, relitively high endurance, which means continuously on the wing for 4 to 8 hours. Rolls deeply 50, 75, 100 feet. But, not nearly as frequent as the Burmingham Roller.
Now, to make things clear... The hight, and deepness of the roll, and the frequency of the roll, depends on a few simple factors. 1) weather conditions and 2) individual birds mood. (does any of this sound familiar?)
These pigeons (the American Roller)are from the era prior to the English style flyers.. eg, Mr. W. Penson, etc. Which means the Birmingham Roller, which became Extreamly popular in the good old USof A., after the second world war. But, the American Roller was THE PIGEON until just prior to 1940.
The American roller pigeons were from a time before the TV set, and were an outlet to pass the time and enjoy being outdoors. (Think about the Old Time and popular game "Monopoly" which literally takes hours and hours to play. You don't play it now because it takes too much time to play, and these modern times are much faster now)
Briefly: If YOU want to release a kit of pigeons early in the morning, sit in your back yard for hours and enjoy the show these birds display until late afternoon to early evening. Then the American roller might be for you.
If, you are after competing in the 20 minute arena, and want a rapid display of pigeons raining from the sky in that short amount of time, then stay with the Birmingham Roller.
You CANNOT compare apples to oranges!!!
They both, American and Birmingham's, were bred to do serarate and different performances. They ARE two separate and distinct breeds.
To put it in a simple way: The Birmingham, is a power racing boat, zig-zaging float markers and speeding to the finish line.
Whereas, the American Roller can sail the ocean blue without any worries or cares for a very long time, while enjoying a few beer's along the way.
All rules regarding competition Roller flying pertain to the Birmingham roller spicifically. NOT the American Roller.
The American CANNOT compete under the Birmingham rules.
It is inherently impossible...
They are both fed and trained differently, remember TWO separate breeds of pigeons!
I only say this because the American Roller is the type of pigeon I personally enjoy, There are hundreds of different types of pigeons in this world. I keep and fly the American Roller for the absolute enjoyment they bring too "ME". That's all, no more no less.
I wrote this NOT as a solicitation, I do not sell, nor ship any pigeons. This is written only to educate those interested in the breed.
Thank you for reading my rambles,
Bill from NJ
|
motherlodelofts
325 posts
Oct 07, 2005
5:58 PM
|
Bill that was a really good read, thanks !!!!
Scott
|
nicksiders
227 posts
Oct 07, 2005
6:11 PM
|
Nothing more to be said................Bill hit a bases loaded homerun. Great job!
The rollers I first exposed to as a boy were American Rollers. These birds were bigger than the Birminghams as I recall (or it might have been I was smaller). I do remember them flying for most of the day; putting them up at 8 AM and they coming down at 1 PM; most of the flying being done practically out of sight.
|
siddiqir
67 posts
Oct 08, 2005
7:45 PM
|
Bill, you have said thing well however you have wrong idea on Birmingham Rollers just being competitive or fly for 20 minutes.
If you ask me you can make Birmingham Roller
1) Fly for hours
2) Fly them at right height so you can enjoy seeing them rolling (nicksiders has made very valid point about out of sight). If my rollers go really high I just feel like go inside as they are not enjoyable any way.
3) Make them roll deeper (put deep to deep together) 75+++
Birmingham Rollers are like multisystem operation system (they are dual purpose acrobat of the air)
There are more backyard flyers of Birmingham Rollers then any other kind of rollers...
|
motherlodelofts
329 posts
Oct 09, 2005
12:11 PM
|
Rauf , for some it doesn't matter, like Bill said it is "his" breed of choice and it boils down to just simply kicking back and enjoying your pigeons.
Slowing down and doing just this is what I have been working on doing as I tend to take lifes pleasures and make a job of them.
Scott
|
Ballrollers
89 posts
Oct 10, 2005
1:51 PM
|
Guys, The first rollers I owned in 1963 were American Roll ers from a guy named Rich Krupke in Canton, Ohio. We laid around for hours in the backyard watching those little dots in the sky as they dropped, seemingly forever, and I prayed that they would pull out...which didn't always happen. As adolescents we bred for best individual deepest bird. Like Bill said, different breed, performing differently; no comparison. I didn't know there were any still around, Bill. You don't have the more recent cross of Oriental to Birmingham that some are calling American High Flying Rollers do you? I do not consider those the same breed. YITS Cliff
|
Bill from NJ
6 posts
Oct 10, 2005
5:31 PM
|
Cliff,
The family of pigeons I have came from a gentleman named Mr. Charles Hubbs of Riverside, New Jersey. Mr. Hubbs is an 85 year old man who has been keeping his strain that originated from his very close friends Lester Manz and Frank Sinkleris, both men also from Riverside, NJ.
Les Manz and Frank Sinkleris bought out Arthur Karp of Cleveland, Ohio; and also purchased all birds belonging to Joseph Bygraves of Camden, NJ.
"Les Manz crossed these two families of pigeons and created a wonderful strain that became 100% easier to handle. They would kit well together and would fly for hours with plenty of roll, even making breaks which were never seen before from the straight Karp birds".
This is a direct quote from the mouth of Mr. Hubbs. I am currently writing an article on the history of this particular family of Les Manz rollers, which I currently own and enjoy.
Cliff you asked if the rollers were of a cross of oriental rollers and something else, I cannot remember at the moment? NO, not to my knowledge.
This Lester Manz family of pigeons are of Arthur Karp Strain of "Whittinghams" crossed with Joseph Bygraves strain of "Whittinghams".
Lester Manz has owned every type of roller from; Casperson, McAree, Graham, Stevenson, etc.
All of the old timers bought, and traded amungst them-selves
looking to create the "Super Pigeon" of their era.
After his cross of Karp and Bygraves pigeons, Les Manz was very pleased and stayed with his creation, litterally giving all the others away! Nothing Les Manz previously owned and bred would compare to the performance and style he created.
All I can say is that I am very pleased and very proud to care for such a rich piece of American history. These feathered performers bring my wife and children much happiness and joy.
I guess I ramble too much, so I will say Good night,
Bill from NJ
|
nicksiders
233 posts
Oct 10, 2005
8:49 PM
|
You need to take a picture for Tony to post on this site. I would like to see these birds in person. Do you know of anyone in northern California that has them. I will soon be moving to Tennessee (Memphis area) and would like to know if there are any breeders in that area as well.
|
Alan Bliven
251 posts
Oct 10, 2005
9:11 PM
|
I have pics of his birds on my site: http://www.cichlidlovers.com/birds_nahfr.htm
----------
Alan
|
nicksiders
237 posts
Oct 11, 2005
6:24 PM
|
Alan - great web site........very interesting.
|
Mongrel Lofts
32 posts
Oct 11, 2005
8:19 PM
|
Chan Grover has a family direct from Lez Manz.. Many of them are cream bared and silver bared birds.. I think Chan is close to 90 now. You might want to check with him if you are interested in the Lez Manz birds.. Mongrel birds
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
499 posts
Oct 12, 2005
3:08 AM
|
Kenny.How did your birds do in the Fall Fly? David
|
Mongrel Lofts
33 posts
Oct 12, 2005
6:02 AM
|
David,
They rolled good, but flew like fireball rollers. LOL Up, up and away.. Mongrel Lofts
|
Riaan
38 posts
Oct 12, 2005
7:27 AM
|
Kenny
Here by me they imported some of the best American pigeons a few years ago,they kit well and rolled well but were difficult to manage.When I stumbled across the soya I told my friends with American pigeons,it keeps them in your face aswell.I fly Ken White and Ollie Harris pigeons,they also like to pull but since I experimented with the soya they haven't gone passed the ceiling once.
Your Friend in the Sport
Riaan
Last Edited by Riaan on Oct 12, 2005 7:44 AM
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
501 posts
Oct 12, 2005
10:27 AM
|
Kenny.I guess I am not the only one who can,t predict what they are going to do from one day to another.LOL.I guess if it was simple it wouldn't be fun.David
|
Bill from NJ
7 posts
Oct 12, 2005
5:05 PM
|
Kenny,
You are 100% right, Chanler Grover does have Les Manz pigeons.Chan Grover has had Les Manz birds since the 1930's and the last of les Manz Fliers were shipped to him via his old friend Charlie Hubbs from NJ, back in 1976, after Les Manz passed away.
Chan Grover has the original color birds, while Charlie Hubbs has the mottles and whitewings. The birds are the same blood family, just cosmetic differences.
There is also another person: Steve Roth in Corpus Christi, Texas, whom has the same family of birds from les Manz.
Bill from NJ
Last Edited by Bill from NJ on Oct 12, 2005 5:11 PM
|