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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
What do you breed for COLOR or PERFORMANCE
What do you breed for COLOR or PERFORMANCE
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George Ruiz
65 posts
Oct 18, 2005
4:06 PM
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What do you guys breed for COLOR,PERFORMANCE,or to sell,?
Is it possible to breed for both or all three?
I only breed for PERFORMANCE nothing else.
I dont believe you can breed for both without your birds suffering in thier performance.Also if you breed to sell and think you can compete at a high level you will have to only sell culls becuase youlle need all your good birds to fly against the best in the WORLD.
Just my opinion
George
Last Edited by George Ruiz on Oct 18, 2005 5:29 PM
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motherlodelofts
353 posts
Oct 18, 2005
5:05 PM
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George another question is "can you breed for both ? " that answer is "no" how many here do ?
Scott
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Phantom1
23 posts
Oct 18, 2005
6:19 PM
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I'm breeding for PERFORMANCE from the birds I've been given and bought to work with. Is that the answer everyone here needs to hear from me? Does it help to know that from me alone? Keep in mind, just because I don't have strictly Blue-Checks, doesn't mean that I'm not breeding for performance with nothing else in mind.
Eric
Last Edited by Phantom1 on Oct 18, 2005 6:20 PM
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motherlodelofts
355 posts
Oct 18, 2005
6:50 PM
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Eric , there is a whole wider range within the breed than blue checkers.
This family is mainly blue checkers and dark checkers due to that is where the roll was.
most families will base around a very narrow pool when the roll is followed.
Scott
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Pali View Lofts
2 posts
Oct 18, 2005
7:03 PM
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I always will breed and work toward a colorful performance!! LOL!
Blue skies, off white clouds, many shades of green are the foothills.....and of course the hard spinning "who gives a *$%& what color they are" rollers!
PVL
Last Edited by Pali View Lofts on Oct 18, 2005 10:48 PM
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BR Rollers
19 posts
Oct 18, 2005
7:25 PM
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I don't breed for either of the 3 mentioned! I breed for type only. I think the hardest thing for me to understand here is what is a NON colored bird looks like?? Nobody ever mentions what these look like on here? I think one of the most beautiful birds are the Blue Bars, and Red checks! Throw a few white flights and tail feathers and im off and running...lol. Maybe a badge or two as well. Blue Grizzle is nice and so are the wonderful Blacks with or with out white on them. How bout the Recessive Reds? Man they can roll and sure are pretty to see spinning in the sky!
And when I look at my birds they all look like the were cut with the same cookie cutter! Some may be a little short some a little longer then others maybe? But its the type I look for! If you are experienced you will see it! You can feel it in your hands! You can see it in the expression of the bird! This is my take on my Rollers.
I know some folks breed for exotic colored Rollers "BUT" most of them will up front tell you that they are not proven performace type flying birds! This is good because they are not trying to get over on anyone, but just trying to share in there color project experments with other people interested in this type of Roller breeding. They don't care to fly, just raise for the fun of breeding pretty birds. I can respect that. They are still my friends and can come by anytime to watch my birds fly...lol.
Breeding for money? The only thing I don't care for here is people sell birds with other peoples names attached to them! This is ok if they only sell a few good birds " not culls" a year to help others getting started in the hobby. If somebody is a merchant and sells Rollers all year for profit, I suggest going to apply at Mc Donalds for a job!...lol I have never heard of anyone getting rich off selling rollers...Better have a second income handy.
Ronnie
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nicksiders
246 posts
Oct 18, 2005
8:40 PM
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Performance only..........what in the hell is good about a roller who does not perform? I don't mind breeders who sell as long as they do not pass on junk or culls.
I am leary of the seller who is not flying the birds he sells.......if he is not proof flying them he is not culling them either. Junk can happen easily from that senerio.
I am not a believer in a flyer being able to pick good birds off the pearch.
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Phantom1
24 posts
Oct 18, 2005
8:56 PM
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Ronnie,
Simply put, a "colored" roller is anything out of the standard "Hard" colors. Ash Red, Blue, and even Brown - though some will dispute it. These are your 3 basic "Hard" colors.
Scott,
I'm not trying to insinuate that it takes Blue-Checks or Red-Checks to have Roll. That would be going against anything and everything I personally believe. All I'm trying to point out is that though my family is based on colors and patterns outside of what is acceptable to some as even something worth getting a grain of seed, I AM breeding toward that narrow gene pool you speak of. I cut the number of pairs I bred from this year in half, trying to narrow down that gene pool. Yes, that even meant that some Barless and Opal and Indigo and Dilutes went down the road to someone else or in my freezer. But everything I raised went up in the air to see what it was capable of. If it wasn't there, the bird didn't remain. And I've gotta be honest, despite my short falls as a trainer, many of the birds held up. Those that didn't are now gone. I'm sure all would like to know what I'm left with as a Color Breeder - breeding toward performance without consideration of color. Here ya go! Barless in Mealy, Cream, Blue, Brown, Indigo and Silver Indigo. Indigo Opal in Check and Bar. Mealy Bar and Check. Qualmond. Faded factor. Blue-Check and Bar. Brown-Check and Bar. By the way, all of these are potential offspring from a simple 8 pairs of birds. See, just knowing what I have the potential to produce doesn't mean that pairs are going together just to produce it. I cut lose of a Dominant Opal-Check cock that was probably the prettiest bird I've ever owned. He carried Bar, Brown, Dilute, and Milky. Bye-bye! Why, because he didn't produce anything that wasn't close to what other pairs did. Why mess with it? Doesn't mean that he wouldn't be good to anyone else trying to get started or want to just look at a pretty pigeon in their backyard...that's their paragotive, not mine.
But everyone wonders about us "Color Breeders". I guess it all comes down to what we have produced - birds that roll up to our standards, nobody else's. When it comes fly day, either they'll perform up to the judge's or not. That's a slippery slope when you consider the environmental factors that plague many on the day of the fly. Do we produce birds that actually roll because the BLUE or the BLACK weed out that "mongrel" blood? I think not. If that were the case, none of my birds would roll...at all...period. I've seen birds that have been color bred not do anything but fly in a circle - if that. Hell, I've had some! Bye-bye! There they go - in the freezer.
What is it that you all need from me? Self-Affirmation that you're doing a good thing with your birds and for the hobby? What have you got to prove, but happiness and well-being for yourselves and for the hobby?
We keep going at each other and starting new threads just to run this into the ground. When I, Bob, Alan, David, etc just try to hop in and "play pigeons" with you guys, all our guards go up. I for one am done. I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else reading this nonsense. I'm through defending MY birds. I will, however, continue to offer words of encouragement and enlightenment to those that come across rash, inconsiderate, or flat out rude or blasphamous to anyone trying to post something here.
Eric
Last Edited by Phantom1 on Oct 18, 2005 9:01 PM
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BR Rollers
20 posts
Oct 18, 2005
10:37 PM
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Thanks for the reply Eric.
I always thought what was considered the "colored birds" were all the birds "other then" the hard feathered birds?
IE: Almonds, Yellow, Dun, faded, qualmond, Barless, penciled ect. ect.
Can I get another oppinion please.
Ronnie
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motherlodelofts
357 posts
Oct 18, 2005
10:40 PM
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Eric , other than Dave you guys don't come in here except try and deceive and confuse the new fliers when this topic come's up ,other than Dave and Allan, you guys don't contribute anything here , nothing ,Nada.
We could care less about what you guys do, and you enjoy the color breeding and that is the hobby for you,just accept it , some of the new guys will follow the same path , but we owe it to them and the breed to know what you guys are about and what those birds that you just described are about, as hard as try to make it so your goals are not the same as our's, which is ok.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 18, 2005 10:47 PM
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Pali View Lofts
3 posts
Oct 18, 2005
10:48 PM
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We could care less about what you guys do, and you enjoy the color breeding and that is the hobby for you,just accept it , some of the new guys will follow the same path , but we owe it to them and the breed to know what you guys are about and what those birds that you just described are about, as hard as try to make it so your goals are not the same as our's, which is ok.
Well said MotherLodeLofts!
Now George....did you really have to start this post! LOL!
PVL
Last Edited by Pali View Lofts on Oct 18, 2005 10:50 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
191 posts
Oct 18, 2005
11:51 PM
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Pop quiz:
Say a guy decides he wants to try different birds from different people. He gets birds from Flyer A, Flyer B, Flyer C and Flyer D. He flys them out, breeds from them and continues the process. Over time he begins to see which birds he feels are better and which Families produce the better birds and in better percentages. One by one, the less enjoyable, less productive families are culled, residing in a group of birds that generate the quality of performance the flyer wants to see. If that family happened to contain birds of a "colored" nature, does this make that person a "color breeder" or a "performance breeder"?
Please offer "yes" or "no" answers. Definitions of your answers are applicable.
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Shaun
144 posts
Oct 19, 2005
1:26 AM
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If the guy lives in the US, he is obviously a performance breeder, but clearly has no interest in pursuing the standard or heritage of the true Birmingham Roller. Indeed, he might well suggest there is no such thing.
If the guy lives in the UK, he would be ridiculed and driven out of the sport.
Shaun
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
511 posts
Oct 19, 2005
2:33 AM
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Shaun.You said:If the guy lives in the US, he is obviously a performance breeder, but clearly has no interest in pursuing the standard or heritage of the true Birmingham Roller. Indeed, he might well suggest there is no such thing.
Since you live where the true Birmingham roller came from would you be so kind as to tell all us dummys here in the U.S. what the Standard is for a Birmingham Roller.Maybe if we know what that is maybe we can breed toward that Standard.David
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Shaun
145 posts
Oct 19, 2005
4:00 AM
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Well, David, when I see guys writing that they would happily cross a duck with their rollers if that made them roll better, then that's the type of thing I mean about losing sight of the standard and heritage of the Birmingham Roller. Comments like that are by no means unusual. And, if what Ken has said about the continued cross-breeding of the roller, surely that in itself says that the end result is not a Birmingham Roller, regardless of how it performs.
Perhaps that's where the great divide is: Those who feel that so long as the end result of continued experimentation produces a great rolling bird, then it can be called a Birmingham Roller, as opposed to the other camp which feels that there's much more to it than that. Clearly, I fall into the latter 'dinosaur' and 'purist' camp. I can live with that.
Shaun
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Velo99
118 posts
Oct 19, 2005
5:11 AM
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I breed for performance. Period. I still have a number of different colors that are offshoots of the hard colors. I do believe that if one is to breed the hard colors there are enough variations to give one all of the colors he could possibly hope for. I am satisfied with the array of colors my birds have produced over the last season and am looking forward to what comes next season. Performance rules and pretty color is a bonus.
YITS MTC
V99
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Phantom1
25 posts
Oct 19, 2005
6:50 AM
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Shaun,
You bring up a good point. You stated "continued experimentation". Tell all you boys something. If you can guarantee me that your birds are 100% complete as a breed, family, whatever, and can graciously hook me up with a few pair. I will personally go out and cull every single bird in my loft and post pictures of their dismembered bodies here for the world to see. By the way, I'd also like a guarantee that I will never have to outcross to any other family and that the birds will be self-sufficient in all aspects of breeding and rolling true. Now, if someone has this to offer me, prove it and let's hook up! I'd love to have that! But I doubt it exists, and if it does, the breeder would rather cull extras than to hook someone like me up LOL! So what are my options? Work with what I've got and continue to move forward with performance in the birds I've got today. Will that stock change over the years? I can't honestly say - nobody seems to have the real deal to get rid of. And why would I try something new when, after all, we're all in the middle of a "Continued Experimentation" smackdown.
Eric
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Shaun
147 posts
Oct 19, 2005
7:04 AM
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Eric, please enlighten me - you're clearly not an idiot? This is also an extension to another colour and breeding thread going on, which I'm getting into a bit of a strop about. First an observation: In 2004, an English guy won the W/C with birds from various lines of old English flyers, untampered with, going back to Pensom's time. Conversely, in 2005, an American won the W/C with a team that you guys can't agree on as to its heritage. Indeed, the colour and cross-breeding arguments as to his stock, rant back and forth.
Was it all worth it? What has been achieved?
Shaun
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motherlodelofts
358 posts
Oct 19, 2005
7:27 AM
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Eric the real deal is out there , it is up to you to persue it.
Scott
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Phantom1
27 posts
Oct 19, 2005
7:27 AM
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Shaun,
I'm not disputing the color issue and that it will continue to go on and on. I, for one, do not cross my rollers into other breeds. Do I deny the fact that some of the pretty colors we have on a "roller-type" pigeon today, came from crossing onto another breed? No. That's not really the point, nor the issue I'm trying to address.
Get me some birds that haven't been tampered with, if those are the real deal. I should be able to just breed them and fly them and not have anything to work toward, other than turn them lose and watch them up and down. Nobody can guarantee that with their birds (that I've heard). Everyone has their own "work in progress" so to speak. Regardless of family, pedigree, color, or pure mongrel, we ALL have the same goal - Breed The Best Rollers Out Of The Air. Right? So, you tell me...is any of this worth it? What's been acheived? Nothing - because we can't seem to wrap our brains around the fact that just because some of us only fly, to the best of their knowledge, Pure Untampered with Birmingham Rollers. Whereas others have pretty birds that roll just as well as the prior.
I'm not supporting or condoning the use of other breeds to inject colors into the sacred BR! I've stated before on this site that I don't deny for one second that it's still going on to. What pisses me off to no evail is that there's always some unsuspecting new guy out there that falls prey to these cross-breeds. I've been there just as many others have. Being burned by that experience before, do you honestly think that I'd be feeding a bunch of mongrels that offered nothing, other than pretty birds to look at? I've already stated that I'm breeding for performance. What else needs to be said?
Eric
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Phantom1
28 posts
Oct 19, 2005
7:29 AM
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Scott,
I got some very nice birds from Gary Roberts, and one nice hen from Don Sutton. That's as far as I've gotten. And it remains a work in progress.
Eric
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motherlodelofts
359 posts
Oct 19, 2005
7:30 AM
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Eric you just started flying did you not ?
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 19, 2005 7:31 AM
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maxspin
4 posts
Oct 19, 2005
7:32 AM
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I breed for performance only. I do have some of those tippler colors in my birds lol
Keith
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Phantom1
29 posts
Oct 19, 2005
7:36 AM
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Scott,
I've been flying for the past 2 years.
Eric
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Shaun
148 posts
Oct 19, 2005
7:47 AM
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Eric - very sound points. Perhaps you speak for many when you say you can only work with what you've got, regardless of how they arrived there. But, surely, Scott is saying it doesn't have to be like that; there are still plenty of lofts which have, as he puts it, the real deal.
I suppose this brings another question: When guys get into rollers in the US, is it difficult to find the 'real deal'? I ask this because for me, in the UK, it would have been difficult to find anything other.
Cliff suggests that in the UK, the 'purist' state of affairs could well be related to the small size of the roller community and the fear of the potential repercussions from friends. I think that's definitely the case. But, it still doesn't alter the fact that we haven't, in all these years, seen the need to 'modify' the roller. Cliff suggests that such modifiers have been an improvement, which perhaps we didn't have access to. I don't think so; we just didn't see the need to modify the roller - we liked it just the way it was, and have continued to do so.
Shaun
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George Ruiz
66 posts
Oct 19, 2005
7:53 AM
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Mac I would have to say that a person that only breeds for perfomance will soon be found out as the pigeon world is small the World Cup and Fall Fly will expose you if your truly a performance breeder.
Thanks George
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Phantom1
30 posts
Oct 19, 2005
7:58 AM
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George,
I don't need the World Cup or the Fall Fly to validate my intentions to you or anyone else, what I'm doing with my birds. Even Eldon Chaeney has stated that probably the best rollers in the US are owned by backyard fliers that don't compete. Do you feel there's any validity to this?
Eric
Last Edited by Phantom1 on Oct 19, 2005 8:02 AM
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Phantom1
31 posts
Oct 19, 2005
8:01 AM
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Shaun,
Without a doubt - YES it's becoming more clear to me that it's a rarity, if not an impossibility, for a US flier to find the "real deal". It's out there for sure! If you find it, then next hurdle is wrestling a few away from that breeder. There's a lot of the "You want your cake and eat it too" mentality. I've been thrown off someone's property before becuase I asked too many questions about a bird's performance ability.
Eric
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Slobberknocker
56 posts
Oct 19, 2005
8:01 AM
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Shaun,
Problem is, those with the "real deal" will not part with them and, if they do, the are priced so high as to disuade any newcomer from getting birds from them. I have acquired the best stock I could afford that had what i wanted. Are they the "real deal"? Well, I look at them every day and they are, in fact, real and they are good enough for me.
Eric earlier asked for some help in obtaining the "real deal" and was simply told, "they are out there". Not very helpful, huh?
Bob
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www.slobberknockerlofts.com
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George Ruiz
67 posts
Oct 19, 2005
8:05 AM
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Eric I am flying three familys the Horner's old Bob Scott's and birds from Ron Duncan which go back to Robert Parker and Jerry Higgins.
Anyway I would be glad to give you a pair of birds of your choice of family's for you to breed out of and you can compare them to all your color projects.
All I ask is you pay for the box and shipping .
you can email me g1ruiz@sbcglobal.net
George
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Phantom1
32 posts
Oct 19, 2005
8:18 AM
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George,
That is very kind of you and I'd be glad to take you up on that! I'll email you to discuss off line.
Eric
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Ballrollers
95 posts
Oct 19, 2005
8:18 AM
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I breed and fly strictly for performance with a line of James Turner family of birds and soon, with a side project of Ivan Hanchett "pedigree" birds. If it doesn't perform, it doesn't matter how pretty it is, it's a cull. My situation is exactly the scenario proposed by Brian McCormick above in selecting from pedigree vs. color rollers, and choosing the color rollers for quality performance. To me, Brian, the term describes the breeder and his intentions, not the color of his birds. To a few guys, if you breed from stock that has a color modifier introduced decades back, you are a color breeder. To them, even if you breed for all blue bars out of stiff blue checks/bars and red checks/bars from a pedigree source, you would not be considered a color breeder, in spite of the fact that is what you are. To me, performance is all that counts. That is the fallacy of their argument. Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Oct 19, 2005 8:29 AM
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Shaun
149 posts
Oct 19, 2005
8:29 AM
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Bob and Eric, I take your points but, surely, you guys can pick up solid youngsters at a reasonable price? Actual breeding pairs, as we know, are a different kettle of fish, but the little untested babies from a good loft keep the price down. Is this not an option over there?
Shaun
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Slobberknocker
57 posts
Oct 19, 2005
8:32 AM
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Shaun,
Sure it is, if you can find someone willing to part with them. Too many of the "top" guys here in the US want ungodly prices for their birds. I was told 7 or so years ago by a big name flyer that I could get young, unproven birds for $300.00 per pair but only because I was the new guy. maybe over therein the UK, that is common and you guys can afford those prices, but not many can swing those prices here.
Bob
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www.slobberknockerlofts.com
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Phantom1
33 posts
Oct 19, 2005
8:33 AM
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Shaun,
Getting unproven youngsters is an option at times, but almost as effective as putting a pair of birds together based on color alone. Why replace some unknowns with more unknowns? Sure, your odds may go up. It's been said to me that only 1 out of 10 youngsters from a pair will be a keeper (in some families). So following that logic, 9 out of 10 really should be culled. I don't ever expect for someone to cut lose of their best birds!!! I wouldn't do it - why expect it from others? A great roller breeder also once said "Not every roller is a spinnter, and not every spinner is a breeder". So I guess it's crapshoot either way eh?
Eric
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motherlodelofts
360 posts
Oct 19, 2005
8:51 AM
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Shaun as mentioned earlier the fliers in this country is a circle all of it's own , no the real deal is not hard to find once you know what it is.
Aquiring such birds does take some effort though as it would with any breed .
Eric , no the best birds are not stuck in some back yard by some un known , that is silly when you have so many dedicating and working on their birds you put them up and match them up against the rest of the world , are there some good birds in some backyards ? yes , but they get complacant.
There are few backyard guys that have good birds that could show it if they could , many are to busy with work, family or what have you and the birds are on the back burner.
Most the backyard non competeing guys that I know don't have much in the way of qaulity and huge percentage of them are color breeders , where very few that compete play around with that type of bird.
They do what they enjoy though and for them it is just a hobby where many of us take it much further than that.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 19, 2005 9:15 AM
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Shaun
150 posts
Oct 19, 2005
9:09 AM
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Eric and Bob, the percentages are indeed against us all - I've had to acquire 25 youngsters in order to breed prolifically, so as to select the best of the offspring. It's certainly a long haul. But, the satisfaction will surely come in knowing that the original line of birds is just being carried on right the way through. The ones which don't make the grade, might well end up as fosters, to pump out as many as possible from the handful which do make the grade.
Our top roller guys charge the equivalent of $40-50 per youngster, which for my lot wasn't a bad investment - certainly, compared to the other things I have a propensity to waste my money on. I convince my wife that buying rollers and the time I put into them, has really saved us a fortune. Every time we don't eat out, I remind here that I've saved the equivalent of a roller.
She's probably thinking what a daft old tosser, but I seem to be getting away with it - at least, so far.
Shaun
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motherlodelofts
361 posts
Oct 19, 2005
9:11 AM
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Bob 300 bucks for the right birds is a steal, that is "if" they are the right birds.
To be honest most of the birds that I started with were free ,and a few I bought,but I knew what I was buying and I would have dropped 300 bucks on them in a heartbeat.
For myself I breed a few every year to help out new fliers and to donate for auctions.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 19, 2005 9:13 AM
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Shaun
151 posts
Oct 19, 2005
9:20 AM
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Bob and Eric, after reading Scott's last post, I should qualify what I said. Once someone has flown and evaluated the youngsters, the price in the UK rises dramatically for the good ones. There are flyers who will honestly declare any faults and price them accordingly. For example, a bird might me a good roller, but it's perhaps not the best kitter in the world, and so on.
The youngsters which have actually been flown out and which have proven themselves (which are, therefore, at least a good few months' old), will be the same sort of money Scott mentions. However, for me, the beauty of unflown youngsters is that they're easier to settle and there just might be a nugget of gold amongst them.
Of course, they might all turn out to be crap...
Shaun
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Slobberknocker
58 posts
Oct 19, 2005
9:28 AM
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Scott,
They do what they enjoy though and for them it is just a hobby where many of us take it much further than that.
Very well put!!! However, $300.00 is not a steal unless you have amuch bigger agenda. I am not out to win the WC or any competition. The problem that I see with this theory is that some may put a name on their birds and charge the high price. Spending the big bucks guarantees nothing. Actually, it is the same as those who crossbreed for whatever reason and sell the birds as what they are not.
My birds do exactly what I want them to do and I find them very challenging. They roll fast, tight, hard, and deep or they don't stay regardless of the physical appearance.
As I see it Scott, you and I actually breed towrds the same thing. We both want the best performers we can get. The difference being what we choose to look at in the loft.
Bob
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www.slobberknockerlofts.com
Last Edited by Slobberknocker on Oct 19, 2005 9:31 AM
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Ballrollers
96 posts
Oct 19, 2005
10:12 AM
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I'd say it's pert near impossible to score proven breeders from my experience. For nearly four years now I have been in touch with many top breeders and competitors in the nation to purchase proven breeders, willing to pay whatever necessary to get good ones. No one had any to spare. I finally got burned good on some stiff pedigree birds and paid top dollar for the names Plona and Pensom. Most of us have to settle for obtaining proven performers to breed and take our best shot. Unflown kits are the only other alternative. YITS Cliff
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Shaun
152 posts
Oct 19, 2005
10:29 AM
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Well, Cliff, it's the same over here, in terms of obtaining decent breeders, so the untried kit seems to be the only viable option for many. Assuming that the young birds come from one of the current successful flyers, we stand a reasonable chance of producing a bird or two with which to carry on the line - but, this time in one's own name.
Well, that's the theory, anyway...
Shaun
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motherlodelofts
363 posts
Oct 19, 2005
10:51 AM
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Bob what you post here and what you post elsewhere seems to be different and it leads me to believe that the only thing that we have in common is we both love pigeons.
Our goals and breeding practices are miles apart from what I see and read elsewhere, but you do fill a nich and for you this is more of a hobby and enterprise.
Which is fine but it is not apples for apples , at least from what I see.
Scott
PS I said "if" they are the right birds !!
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 19, 2005 11:16 AM
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motherlodelofts
364 posts
Oct 19, 2005
11:00 AM
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Cliff, Plona and Pensom have been dead a long time and that is a good lesson to pass on to others.
But the brightest families do go back that direction , Good birds are like good lawyers , you won't find them in the clasified adds , and you won't find them mass produced and marketed.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 19, 2005 11:01 AM
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Slobberknocker
60 posts
Oct 19, 2005
11:15 AM
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Scott,
For me hobby, yes, enterprise, no. I didn't realize that what i post here and what I post on the only other forum I even look at is so different. My apologies for the confusion.
I never said our breeding practices were the same, I just said we have the same goal: to raise the best Rollers we possibly can with the knowledge we have.
Good to know we have come to an agreement and middle ground here. As I see it, you do your thing, I'll do mine.
Thank you for the post.
Bob
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www.slobberknockerlofts.com
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
192 posts
Oct 19, 2005
11:29 AM
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Sooo...Only two answers to the question? Maybe reality is a hard pill to swallow.
Shaun, around here, the top guys get $300-$500 for pairs (not proven pairs) and between $2,000-$5,000 for a 20 bird kit. Prices as stupid as the people willing to pay that for them.
Cliff, you are probably right. My B.E. family consists of some Andy's and their hard colored siblings chosen over the common "real deal" because they were that much better. And I am very happy I made that decision. The greatest joy I get is beating the purists at their own game. It doesn't happen all the time, but enough to satisfy my goal of proving the general consensus wrong while being a total pain in the ass in the process!. I greatly love being a pain in the ass. LOL. I love flying mixed mutt kits that do very well when so many people say it can't be done. I love flying birds of a "shady mongrel" background and having them succeed. Trust me Cliff, it does feel really good. BTW, there were 7 B.E. birds in the kit that qualified second in this region out of 40 kits entered. There were 6 B.E. birds in my second team which was fifth in this same fly out of 40 kits. I love it even more when one of the guys in the crowd asks "what is that blue checker that just ripped it?" Then I gleefully tell them, "its not a blue check, that one is an andalusian". The silence of the crowd is my reward...LOL.
People should continue to do what they do if it makes them happy.
Brian.
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Shaun
153 posts
Oct 19, 2005
11:49 AM
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Well, Brian, if nothing else, these current colour/breeding posts are bringing a few people out of the woodwork and I've certainly learned a bit about different perspectives. Now, correct me if I'm wrong (and before you go all sensitive on me - this is an observation not a criticism), you seem to fall into the camp of those confident chaps who believe their superior handling skills means they could turn a kit of crap into a winning team, so the background of the birds is largely irrelevant? Indeed, if they were to win a major competition, they could donate the kit elsewhere, start all over again and repeat the process.
Am I warm or am I wide of the mark?
Shaun
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Alan Bliven
262 posts
Oct 19, 2005
12:23 PM
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The bottom line is these birds of questionable back grounds are just as good at performing as the common birds.
If your point is you need to uphold the heritage of the B-Roller. That holds very little water. Since what time in history? All Birms have a questionable background, the English birds are Tippler Mongrels... it just depends on how far you go back. This is a performance breed, it's not an AKC registered dog with pedigrees...as long as it can perform up to standards is what really matters.
The same happens in show breeds. The West of England Tumbler today is still a West, despite it's questionable background.
All great pioneers throughout history take a "crucifixion" for their efforts by the narrow minded and prejudice in society, this is no less the case.
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Slobberknocker
61 posts
Oct 19, 2005
12:24 PM
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Brian,
It always amazes me how you can put into words exaclty what I am thinking and restore my confidence in this breed. Thank you for your wisdom and input.
Shaun,
Please stop trying to stir things up on here. it has been done many times and only leaves people bitter. If you are a true English gent, you'll let this one go, chap.
Bob
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www.slobberknockerlofts.com
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Slobberknocker
62 posts
Oct 19, 2005
12:25 PM
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Alan,
Just like Brian, great post and thank you. We need to get brian as a member of the NPRA.....
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www.slobberknockerlofts.com
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