Mongrel Lofts
51 posts
Oct 20, 2005
7:05 PM
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Shaun,
I have both the NBRC color genetics tapes put out by Tony Roberts and James Turner. If you would like to see what these guys call performance breeding and breeding for performance only over here. I would be glad to send them to you. Maybe you could share with the UK how the roller is being improved over here in the states by these crosses to other breeds for color, factors and patterns. Would be fun to sit down with some of the guys with a few beers and learn how to breed better performers by crossing for colors I would think? LMAO Let me know if you would like to give em a try.. I will pay the shipping. Be prapared to be amazed!! LOL Mongrel Lofts
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Alan Bliven
264 posts
Oct 20, 2005
8:29 PM
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Thanks, I'll buy the tapes but follow the link below for a REAL color project!!!
http://cichlidlovers.com/colored_pigeon.gif
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Shaun
165 posts
Oct 20, 2005
11:29 PM
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Ken, that's a kind offer and I'm certainly interested. Let me know when you need my address and I'll give it to you.
Shaun
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Ballrollers
107 posts
Oct 21, 2005
6:14 AM
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Shaun, They are also available on DVD format now if you prefer. Let me know. And I might add that this was produced in the '80s, I believe, and describes how things WERE done (past tense) to develope this family, not ARE BEING done. Past tense is the operative phrase, here. Is there a loft or two somewhere still playing with it? Who knows? Personally I am not in favor of it as an ongoing process. I am discussing the family of rollers I am working with, in these discussions. YITS Cliff
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Phantom1
49 posts
Oct 21, 2005
6:51 AM
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Kenny,
If you wanted to try to further discredit two individuals, you could have had the descency to take it off line. Is your main goal to just keep stirring the pot?
Eric
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Shaun
167 posts
Oct 21, 2005
7:40 AM
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Eric and Cliff, you're clearly two sensible guys. Let me ask you a couple of questions. First, if those who Kenny is referring to were happy to be videoed doing what they were doing, I can't see how that's discrediting them. Why should Kenny's post go underground? Perhaps the guys concerned still have faith in their methods and are happy for the world to see that. Who are we to police that?
Next question. How can some guys refer to the cross-breeding of rollers having ended within the US in the biblical era - I believe Moses' name cropped up here on more than one occasion - when you're talking right now about the 1980s?
Shaun
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Phantom1
50 posts
Oct 21, 2005
7:43 AM
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Shaun,
Again, I'm not disputing the fact that it happened. When the post is clearly about continuing the color debate, it's clear to, at least myself, that the only intention is to keep stirring the pot. In other words, can we not calm the crap down, and move past it? The only motivation I see with this debate is this: Discredit the other side no matter the cost. That goes for both sides. I'm trying to move past it and get along with all of you guys, because I do believe you have good information to share - IF we can just move past the color debate.
Eric
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motherlodelofts
376 posts
Oct 21, 2005
7:58 AM
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Eric time to move on no doubt, I think that everyone gets the picture.
Scott
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Shaun
168 posts
Oct 21, 2005
8:03 AM
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Hi, Eric. That was quick. You at work?
I do very much take your point. But, what perhaps intrigues me more than anything, is the sheer inconsistency of some of the posts. For every guy who insists it all happened a long, long time ago, there's the likes of you and Cliff who are convinced it ended shortly after Elvis died (hey, I know my pop history). Surely, the quality of a good debate diminishes when the opposing team can't agree on the same issue.
I can't be in just a tiny minority who find it strange that under the Birmingham Roller ideology, we have guys who would happily cross their birds with any species, if the end result rolled better, together with those who toss their dull coloured blues and chequers for hawk bait. Now, come on, you surely can see where some might have a problem, here?
Shaun
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Shaun
169 posts
Oct 21, 2005
8:07 AM
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Scott - you up and about too? I posted a question on the winter breeding thing for you.
Perhaps it is time to move onto something new.
Shaun
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Phantom1
51 posts
Oct 21, 2005
8:09 AM
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Shaun,
Yes, I'm at work. Send me your email address, and we'll chat.
Eric
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Shaun
170 posts
Oct 21, 2005
8:12 AM
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shaun@sharktraining.co.uk
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Alan Bliven
265 posts
Oct 21, 2005
8:27 AM
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Eric,
If you want to to end the debate, stop answering. Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out.
In the sceme of things it really don't matter what happens here in this microscopic part of the Web, pretty colored Rollers are here to stay, they are winning the World Cup and there's nothing anyone can do to stop their explosion of popularity.
In fact they are the wave of the future, now people understand they are as good at performance as the blue checks. Think about it. If a newbie has a choice between black reduced and blue check when there's no difference in performance, what do you suppose he will pick? I doubt he will pick the blue check just for the sake of the Black Country heritige. Both have questionable backgrounds, neither one is "Pure."
We have a couple of zealous purists who sincerely believe they are protecting the Birmingham Roller breed from destruction. I believe they are sincere but sincerely wrong and their struggle is just fighting against the wind. They'll most likely fight it tooth and nail till the day they die and be the only two geezers left with a loft of blue checks and claim they have the only pure Birmingham Rollers left in the world.
But their is hope, maybe they come to see the light when year after year the pretty colored Rollers beat the socks off their blue checks in the World Cup.
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Alan
Last Edited by Alan Bliven on Oct 21, 2005 8:29 AM
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George Ruiz
68 posts
Oct 21, 2005
8:50 AM
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Alan
It's not just two "purist " as you put it there are alot of people that feel the way Scott and Ken feel about crossing breeds to make MONGRELS.
Also I would not hold my breath thinking that a kit of MILKYS and CRESTED birds will be winning the WORLD CUP or FALL FLY anytime soon.
The only thing they might win is a ribbon at the County Fair.
George
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Shaun
171 posts
Oct 21, 2005
9:01 AM
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And, presumably, Alan, you wouldn't care less if the rest of the world got fed up withe US bastardisation of the roller and they decided that if you felt you could cross anything with anything, with no consequences to bear, it was no longer a level playing field and that you could therefore fly amongst yourselves?
Shaun
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
516 posts
Oct 21, 2005
9:44 AM
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Scott you said: culd put "one or two" in my A team, have a good fly , and then I would be used as an example of color birds winning flys
Works both ways don,t it.If I have a couple of color birds in my kit and do good I am a Color Breeder.David
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Ballrollers
108 posts
Oct 21, 2005
10:28 AM
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I thought you were hunting, Dave?? Scott, the top flyer in the world, in fact, has predominately these birds in his loft, no matter what you try to convince us of; as does the man who has scored the most points in any competition, as does a previous NBRC 11-bird national champ, as does the winner of his region Dave Strait, and the list goes on. I see them fly on a regular basis. It's incredible, Scott that you keep pretending it isn't so. Perhaps you don't feel these are in the main stream of the sport either. So dream on, pretend it isn't so. The purist/color bird debate will never end. The truth is that the spin in this family comes from Pensom and Lloyd Thompson rollers. The truth is that no more outcrossing to other breeds is being done by serious roller men who breed with this family, nor have they for many decades. The truth is that the Birmingham Roller comes from a wide variety of genetic backgrounds itself.The truth is that based on performance and genetically speaking, after the number of generations bred since the outcrosses, the color birds in this family are, for all practical purposes, as pure as any other Birmingham roller out there. The genetics video is not a video to make rollers perform better. It is a video that shows how a man was able to introduce any color found in other rollers, some through breed outcrossing, into one's stud of drab ol blue checks selfs. It is for fun, pleasure and enjoyment of one's own birds. Each man makes his own choices and mistakes. But it is HIS choice, and the more choices we have that entice a man into flying rollers, the better it is for the sport. YITS Cliff
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
517 posts
Oct 21, 2005
10:51 AM
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Cliff.Raining here today and I got tired of being wet so I called it a day and just playing on the computer for awhile.LOL.David
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George Ruiz
69 posts
Oct 21, 2005
10:55 AM
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Scott
It's beginning to sound to me like some people are trying to protect(defend) thier investmant $$$ and not the Birmingham Roller as a breed .
Maybe some of these guys spent some big bucks and dont want to admit they got took.
you know its hard as hell to admit you purchused junk.
I been there and done that .
furthor more if I was flying a kit of mongrels I would definitly want to fly in the 11 bird fly so I dont have to get big breaks to score some points becuase most Mongrels that I seen and that I flew were individual birds.(yes i flew and had some years ago).
george
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
518 posts
Oct 21, 2005
12:09 PM
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George.Is that why Kenny is last years Champ? Where are you at in the flys? David
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
202 posts
Oct 21, 2005
12:17 PM
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George, you really need to come over sometime. In fact, make it next weekend when we fly the finals out here. Half of the kit I am flying in the finals are my "mongralized-according-to-the-uneducated-opinion" birds. It is easy for us to sit at a keyboard and type in ideals and opinions when in reality, the real honest to God truth lies when that kit box door is open. Everything else is just fantasy. What the birds do is truth.
By the way George, I never paid a dime for my Mongral birds and they turned out to be better than most of the old school Pensom birds I had which is why I have gotten rid of nearly all of them with the exception of the few used breed in with them. Good birds are good birds period. It is up the flyer to prove the bird's worth, not some pedigree or brainwashing from a peer. Some people in the roller society live in a land of make-believe; they make up what they want to believe. And the second that someone agrees with them, they suddenly have a cause. This goes for any angle and any approach to a subject. And it is eternally debatable with only one justifiable resolution...fly the damn birds and let them do the talking. The bird's talking is usually pure and honest. All of this talking by us is really just passionate bullshit fired into the dark with little regard for the real impact our impressions have on others.
One has to rememeber that not one word ever posted in any forum or message board will ever change my mind about the birds I fly at my house. Not one word or opinion! The people who become successful roller breeders and flyers are those who follow the path of experience and learn as issues become evident. I have largely found online conversations and debates to be more "entertaining" than "educational".
Brian.
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Shaun
172 posts
Oct 21, 2005
12:40 PM
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Brian, I can't believe you said that.
"One has to remember that not one word ever posted in any forum or message board will ever change my mind about the birds I fly at my house. Not one word or opinion!"
Well, for those of us who've listened carefully to a lot of what you've had to say, that's bit rich.
Even the very, very best learn from each other and I know for fact that there's some, not least on the veloroll list - your peers and contemporaries - who might well balk at that attitude.
Where the hell has humility gone?
Shaun
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
203 posts
Oct 21, 2005
1:11 PM
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Kill the psychology lesson Shaun. Balk all you want. I really could care less if you learn from what I say or not. I participate, I don't try to educate. If you like what you read, great. If not, no big deal to me. I'm not here to save the roller world. I am here to participate in conversations with fellow roller enthusiasts. I don't care less if you or anyone else like my birds or my opinions, it won't change the way I approach each and every day. I keep things simple that way Shaun. Maybe you should try it sometime. It is rather refreshing! (grin)
Brian.
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Slobberknocker
70 posts
Oct 21, 2005
1:16 PM
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Brian,
Would you email me privately. I would like to chat a bit with you. Thank you,
Bob
mcguan@charter.net
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www.slobberknockerlofts.com
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George Ruiz
70 posts
Oct 21, 2005
1:43 PM
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Dave you ask where I am in the fly,s well I flew a 20 bird team and a 11 and I scored 263 with the 20 and 88 with the 11 I believe I was second in region 9a with the 11 and around 10th with the 20 bird team.
There was only 12 kits entered in the 11 and 50 kits in the twenty here in region 9a Los Angeles.
Hey Mac thanks for the invite to your loft I will take you up on that offer.
I will enjoy seeing some spin since I have been under lockdown here in the PEREGRIN capital of the world .
george
Last Edited by George Ruiz on Oct 21, 2005 1:48 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
519 posts
Oct 21, 2005
1:55 PM
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George.I thought you were knocking the 11 bird fly.LOL. Pretty good scores.David
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
204 posts
Oct 21, 2005
2:28 PM
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You are welcome any time George. Is the LA area still being judged? Keith told me it was going over several weeks. Hopefully your score will hold up for you and you can make it into the show although I think that area flys the finals the day after we do. Not much prep time that's for sure.
Brian.
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motherlodelofts
378 posts
Oct 21, 2005
3:25 PM
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George, Brian does fly some birds , he has just a "touch" of strange blood in one of his lines of birds , he does more talking that side of the fence than anything LOL.
You bring up a good point though about the 11 bird and 20 bird fly, I flew some youngsters last weekend for my first 11 bird fly , my opinion is that it is a good youngbird fun fly.
It just didn't do much to rock my boat.
I just wasn't sold on it at all and I don't see myself flying it again. I like something that takes more work,thought,stratigy ect. And nothing gets the wood up as a large, hard ,solid high qaulity break.
Elevan bird kits can't give you that, nor can birds that you move in an out at a whim , it works for indivudule stuff but not for what rocks by boat.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 21, 2005 5:17 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
520 posts
Oct 21, 2005
3:39 PM
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Scott.Sometimes those no brainer things turn out to be the hardest to master.Don,t give up on it so easy.LOL.
The 11 bird fly is not a gimme fly.If it was so easy to master there would be more flyers winning it.
For me it is very challenging.I like the individual roller getting credit for what it does rather than the team getting scored.You can hide things in the team that you won,t get by with in the individual roll.Maybe after I master the 11 bird fly I will move on to the 20 bird fly.LOL. David
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Alan Bliven
266 posts
Oct 21, 2005
3:39 PM
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>>Allan have you done any crossing of Poodles onto your Sheperds lately ? once you get them looking like a German Sheperds again it won't make any difference to the gene pool, Right ?<<
Scott,
No, not to a Poodle because I see no benefits of crossing to a poodle but I am planning to cross them with the Belgian Malinois to get the super dog... hybrid vigor ya know! Crossing and back crossing dogs does not compare with Pigeons. It's a much longer process. They shouldn't have their first litter till they are at least 2.5 years old
BTW... I am breeding my German Shepherds for color and performance. :) I'm breeding more for the black colored dogs for better camouflage for night patrols.
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Alan
Last Edited by Alan Bliven on Oct 21, 2005 4:12 PM
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Double D
43 posts
Oct 21, 2005
6:38 PM
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Alan,
It's not my intention to heap "wood" upon the fire, however, given your comment about the newbies and colored birds, and considering I am a bonafide newbie, I thought I'd share my perspective with the group.
I'm still in the process of researching sources of birds, I don't even own any yet. With that said, I can guarantee you that I am not even remotely interested in even looking at "color" birds. Why? Great question. I'll see if I can proffer an answer.
For me it's about respect for what was intended and the great tradition behind these little birds. Even though all pigeons originally come from what could be called a "mongrelized" background, the Birmingham Roller, just like all the other pigeon breeds in today's day and age, has been a distinct breed long enough that it is and should be considered it's own breed or strain or whatever you want to call it. That is also true for all other breeds of pigeons as well.
That being the case, the moment you breed a Birmingham Roller with anything other than another Birmingham Roller you have gone against what is "intended" in my mind and you are breeding something that is inferior. Like Tony says, you can't get what isn't there and those funky colors were not there but introduced through cross-breeding in recent decades and continues today. Why would I, as a new person to the sport, want something that isn't pure based on the history, heritage, and tradition of the Birmingham Roller. It's my opinion, that anyone who would want color birds simply doesn't have the respect for the Birmingham Roller that they should have, (I'm sure I'm ruffling feathers, no pun intended, with that statement).
I guarantee you, based on the correspondence that I've had in recent months with a number of this country's top competitors, there are a lot of guys out there who feel exactly like I do as the top competitors get many, many requests from guys like me for their birds. If a newbie knows the truth, regardless of the performance of color birds today, I bet my money that most of them go after the traditional Birmingham Roller.
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
375 posts
Oct 22, 2005
4:14 AM
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Double_D, guys like you are the past and the future for the Birmingham Roller. FLY ON!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
376 posts
Oct 22, 2005
4:16 AM
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My input on this thread is this: when a new person comes into the sport, they are brought in out of sheer enthusiasm and fascination for the rolling performance and wanting to have it in their backyard.
At some point they learn there is a “recognized breed” called Birmingham Roller based on a performance standard and while there are rollers of varying colors, questionable rolling quality and genetic background, it is the one seen as a “recognized breed” that is bred exclusively for rolling performance that becomes the focus of their passion and quest.
Whether rightly or wrongly, the Birmingham Roller has become romanticized over the years and has a strong base of support that carries it through the years.
Without this base of support, the Birmingham Roller as a breed may have become extinct (it is still possible). Birmingham Roller breeders are to be commended for their successful efforts.
As to which is actually better…I have learned that all people want certainty, the “promise and ideal” of the Birmingham Roller offers that certainty.
In some ways, it really has nothing to do with which kind of roller is actually better. In trying to understand human nature, you will see the need we all have for certainty in our lives and it is perception and this need that often drives our choices.
And so there is a choice to be made for the person taken by the rolling performance, the choice between controversial color rollers that do not have the “promise” of the roll or the certainty of the Birmingham Roller which is bred and maintained for just that.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
522 posts
Oct 22, 2005
4:27 AM
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Tony.Where did you concieve the idea that color rollers do not have the “promise” of the roll? David
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
377 posts
Oct 22, 2005
4:27 AM
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Alan, now those are some "real" color rollers. LOL
OFF TOPIC
You never know how much you love something until its gone, my German Shepard ran off and was gone for 4 days and showed up Thursday night on the back deck barely able to walk or stand and just a bag of skin and bones. I honestly don't know how he got back home...
He has never done this before (well once he was gone for a day). I am taking him to the vet this morning to have him checked out.
You raise shepards right? Any thoughts as to why he may have run off? He is not "fixed" and is a very well behaved dog. He has had free range many times and this never happened. I appreciate your input.
You can respond by email: Support@Roller-Pigeon.Com
Thanks!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
378 posts
Oct 22, 2005
4:44 AM
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Hey David, how are you? I never said that to mean color rollers cannot roll with quality. Only that the Birmingham Roller by its recognized standard...offers that "promise" and it is this that often influences a persons choice as to go with Birmingham Rollers.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by rollerpigeon on Oct 22, 2005 4:51 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
523 posts
Oct 22, 2005
4:53 AM
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Tony.Doing fine.Trying to juggle Rollers & Hunting.LOL.
In your post above you said:And so there is a choice to be made for the person taken by the rolling performance, the choice between controversial color rollers that do not have the “promise” of the roll or the certainty of the Birmingham Roller which is bred and maintained for just that.
On you dog runnin free range.Do you have Poisionous Snakes(Copperheads) there.I have several dogs over the years come up missing why hunting and having them return like yours and in all cases they had been bitten by a snake.We have both here the Timber Rattler and Copperheads.The Copperheads are Evil.LOL.They will strike out of sheer enjoyment I think. David
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
379 posts
Oct 22, 2005
5:09 AM
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Hey David, I posted that reply to your message a little too early (still waking up LOL). Please reread it and let me know what you think.
I don't hunt, but my wife did ask me if I was going to take it up as she has met another wife whose husband never did either but took it up after moving to the country.
I don't know if I feel comfortable creeping through the forest with a bunch of yahoo.coms with guns and itchy trigger fingers looking to shoot at the first thing that moves in the distance. LOL
Snakes, huh? Copperheads, huh? Is it too late to move back to California, land of the drive-by and freeway chase and the riots and the earthquakes and the crowds and the...on second thought, what's a few snakes...
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
525 posts
Oct 22, 2005
5:36 AM
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Tony. A good example of "Lost Translations" in this crazy computer world we now live in.LOL.
Have you been able to get a kit in the air since you moved? David
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
380 posts
Oct 22, 2005
6:36 AM
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Hey David, I have 15 Rubys (various ages), 6 young Fireballs and 3 or 4 young Jacs that I put in a kit box this week.
I am settling them right now and will start releasing them this coming week. Looking forward to getting "back in the saddle" again. After all, like Paul Fullerton said, the fun is in the flying. LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Alan Bliven
270 posts
Oct 22, 2005
12:07 PM
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Tony,
A color Roller is a Birmingham roller.. both of them have "mongrelized" backgrounds just like almost every other breed of pigeon. Both can perform just as well as the other, as proven in this year's World Cup.
The reason you don't see as many is because they are "rare" colored birds. Rare means they are scarce, duh! Once they start become more widely available you'll see a lot more winners with them.
Ask David what his score was in his local fly. I believe he won it by a long shot with rare colored birds.
Personally, I don't own any colored Rollers but I don't let envy motivate my prejustuice against them and start a crusade against them and their flyers like some I know do because their lofts are all barn pigeon colored.
Some have even threatened to run the color flyers out of the hobby. Nice spirit that's showing. Where there's envy, prejudice and hatred, the truth doesn't reside.
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Alan
Last Edited by Alan Bliven on Oct 22, 2005 12:09 PM
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Alan Bliven
272 posts
Oct 22, 2005
2:23 PM
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Tony,
Yes, I breed and work with Police line German Shepherds. My website is at: http://www.cichlidlovers.com/bestfriend.htm
My guess is your German Shepherd ran away because he was bored. If they are of good breeding, they will be a working breed that needs to be worked and exercised a lot. If not, they'll try and find something to do themselves.
My brother's two German Shepherds have dug their way out many times and come back 5-6 days later. Many times all beat up and half dead.
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Alan
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Mongrel Lofts
57 posts
Oct 23, 2005
2:39 PM
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Ask David what his score was in his local fly. I believe he won it by a long shot with rare colored birds.
Personally, I don't own any colored Rollers but I don't let envy motivate my prejustuice against them and start a crusade against them and their flyers like some I know do because their lofts are all barn pigeon colored.
Some have even threatened to run the color flyers out of the hobby. Nice spirit that's showing. Where there's envy, prejudice and hatred, the truth doesn't reside.
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Alan
You shouldn't tell lies! Mongrel Lofts
Last Edited by Mongrel Lofts on Oct 23, 2005 4:26 PM
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J_Star
83 posts
Oct 24, 2005
5:00 AM
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Tony,
Your dog could have chased an animal such as rabbit, deer or coon and in the process got lost. His exploration and sniffing the new surrounding kept him off track and by the time he noticed it is time to go back home, he was lost. It took him several days to sniff his track back home.
By the way, those are not 'Rare' color rollers; they are 'Bling-Bling' rollers. They sure are pretty to look at, and some can be outstanding.
Jay
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Ballrollers
109 posts
Oct 24, 2005
7:12 AM
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George, Tony, You can definitely count me in that number that "got took" with pedigree birds...so much for the "promise" of Birmingham Rollers! And as for your narrow point of view that these birds cannot perform in concert, man you gotta get out more! Tell you what, I'll buy you a plane ticket out here. If you don't see 20 birds from the Turner family performing in concert, I lose and you got a free trip. If they perform, you pay me double the air fare? What do you think, George? Cliff
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George Ruiz
71 posts
Oct 24, 2005
8:30 AM
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Thnaks Cliff but I think I will accept Brians invite to his loft to watch his birds
george
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