tapp
27 posts
Oct 24, 2005
8:46 PM
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I would like to know if there is a good book on inbreeding-line breeding. I could read to help me start my breeding program after I raise a few worthy of stocking.So I would have a direction to go. I know somethings are chance pairing's But would be nice to have some guidelines to start. Like father daughter. mother son but I know there's more to it than that. farther down the road like going back close when needed. all is I have to go on is what I get from reading all the past and presant post. Aroud here the guys that fly comp. or even backyard are miles apart.I know you guys work with mainly one family. Thats why Id like your openion. I've got 13 old line pensoms. A Dave Henderson line of 6 pair of breeders and 6 05 flyers. I've had a ball this year flying and pretending I'm in a comp. fly. Will be soon God willing. Any info from you guys would be great. all other posters are wellcome for advice to.I ask these three guys because they work with one main family. and thats what I'll be doing once I find out my best family from what I have to work with for the next 50 years.I'm going to live to be at least 100 like Bluesman!Thanks guys. Tapp
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
208 posts
Oct 24, 2005
9:12 PM
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Tapp, somewhere there is an article that Rick Mee wrote that was a good approach to inbreeding around a few key stock birds. Siddiqr seems to be able to find these with ease, so Sid, if you read this please post a link to that article if you have it. I believe it appeared in the NBRC bulletin about two years ago.
I must first say Tapp that inbreeding in itself isn't necessarily the answer to breeding better rollers. Inbreeding simply describes breeding two very close relatives like brother and sister together. Line breeding would be breeding father to daughter, then the daughter of that pair back to the father, etc. Both are sort of the same but with different approaches and results down the road.
Inbreeding generally encompasses and migrates the genes from both parents together. Line breeding does this for one of the parents.
Most written material on the subject might be hard for some to comprehend (even myself) and it can be a pretty deep subject when the real truth of what inbreeding is about is discussed.
Think of it like this, inbreeding (in the general sense) is an active map or even a tool. How you use the map is based upon decisions in regards to what your destination is. If you use the tool comparison, the usefulness of that tool is directly related to how you use it and your knowledge of how that tool will perform in given circumstance.
For example, you wouldn't use a screwdriver to pound nails (the instructions specifically say to use a hammer). But you have to know how to use that hammer correctly to get the proper results.
Where I am going with this is that guys who do use inbreeding as a serious and very productive tool have something that most books or articles don't express to much degree. That something is either an acutely natural or self-taught sense that lends itself to making productive decisions. (Some call this an acute animal husbandry sense) When you have this kind of inner level of confident knowledge, a person can approach specific breeding practices like inbreeding with greater understanding of what the results will be overall.
The reason I mention this Tapp is that I would like for you to understand that learning specific breeding practices is definitely a step in the right direction, but also understand that specific charts, diagrams and words to that effect won't be the "complete" answer to doing it right. It is merely an instruction about process.
BTW, I prefer half-brother-sister matings not only in my rollers, but in my Wests which are quite highly inbred in their respective categories. I intentionally make some matings with the sole intent of generating some half brothers and sisters which can be mated together the following year, provided they meet the requirements for breeding in the first place.
Something you might also find interesting as I surely did when I did some back tracking recently was that in the 23 pair of baldhead Wests I bred from this year, 43 of the 46 birds in those matings had my one original foundation hen on the pedigree. It wasn't intended to be that way, but years down the road this inbreeding fact became evident.
Brian.
Last Edited by MCCORMICKLOFTS on Oct 24, 2005 9:13 PM
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tapp
28 posts
Oct 24, 2005
9:41 PM
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Thanks Brian, What breedings bring's about half brothers and sister's to breed together. Sorry for the dumb questions. But as I see it I have to ask to understand. Thanks for the time and info! P.S someday in the future I'll look back on my question's I'm asking and think dhaaaa you dumb ass Tapp. Tapp
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
209 posts
Oct 24, 2005
9:45 PM
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Tapp, we all started from scratch somewhere along the line..lol.
A half brother/sister mating would be for example if you mated one hen to a cock and then another hen later on to that same cock. If you then took the best son from one of the matings and paired it to the best daughter from the other mating, that would be a half brother/sister mating. The cock and hen are half brother and sister via their father. The same can be said if you had two different cocks mated to one hen. (obviously not at the same time..LOL)
Brian.
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tapp
29 posts
Oct 24, 2005
10:08 PM
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Glad these pigeons ain't like people breedings. Or someday I'd open my kit box and peek in. And I'd see pigeons in there with thick glasses rotten teeth big ears and picken duelling banjos spitting tobbaco juice on kit box floor. And be in young bird box for years.Just kidding guys. Thanks brian
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J_Star
84 posts
Oct 25, 2005
4:50 AM
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Tapp,
I wrote an article for Tony and he will post it soon. It is about breeding. This article was written based on allot of research and analysis. Here is a paragraph that talks about inbreeding that might help:
“Inbreeding is a method of breeding used to overcome the problem of the super genes being halved and diluted. By re-crossing a champion roller with its dam for example, or with its daughters, or by mating it with its sisters, the super gene combination can be concentrated and held together. 75% of the young from such pairing will have the super genes. You can still inbreed further with one of the daughters from the super roller and dam mating and backcross again to the original super roller. By constantly doing so, dramatically you can concentrate the number of super genes in the offspring. This degree of inbreeding is not really necessary to reproduce the champion roller, as a large number of genes are responsible for characteristics in the offspring that are irrelevant to the performance. For example, color of the feathers or color of the eyes. That is why champion rollers can produce other champions that are not always exactly identical to the parents.”
There are books out there that discuss this in detail such as how to do it, when and know when to stop from taking your birds in too deep. I will go back to the materials I used to write this article and see if I can point you to the right book.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Oct 25, 2005 4:53 AM
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siddiqir
96 posts
Oct 25, 2005
8:30 AM
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Brian, may be this is article you requested me to post but I am not sure
How to Breed for Concert Performance
By: Rick L. Mee
Thanks, -Rauf
Last Edited by siddiqir on Oct 25, 2005 8:30 AM
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tapp
30 posts
Oct 25, 2005
6:50 PM
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Thanks agin Jay' brain' Rauf I printed off how to. by Rick Mee a few months back. Tapp
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J_Star
86 posts
Oct 26, 2005
5:30 AM
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Tapp,
There is a book called 'Inbreeding and Outbreading' written by Cumming. I purchased one a few weeks ago and it is very good.
Jay
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Pali View Lofts
4 posts
Oct 26, 2005
3:18 PM
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Jay,
Where can one get that book you mentioned above?
Thanks,
PVL
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