Double D
51 posts
Oct 25, 2005
12:34 PM
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Velocity
Depth
Frequency
Kitting
For competition and scoring, which is the most important, second most important, third most important, and fourth most important?
And
Would you consider one twice as important as another or are they all close to importance to each other?
Thanks!
Darin
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
213 posts
Oct 25, 2005
1:18 PM
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IMO- Kitting is #1 on the list. Because it doesn't matter how good the other three things are, if they don't kit, they don't score.
Velocity and Depth go hand in hand so I find them both to be equally important.
Frequency would be last on the list, but it is still very important. Of course in the big picture, one won't carry the weight of another. All of these features must work in tandem with one another for a kit to present itself properly.
Brian.
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
535 posts
Oct 25, 2005
3:19 PM
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For me Kitting is # 1.I have no tolerence at all for this unless the bird is moulting.
Second would be Velocity.
Third would be Frequency.
Fourth would be depth. I never worry about depth.It will come with time if you follow the roll.David
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LONGS ROLLER LOFT
7 posts
Oct 25, 2005
3:31 PM
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doubled dI use a computer program called power pigeon and I have six things that Igrade off. kittieng 10points, roll 20points, velocity 20points, depth20points,frequency10points, and how I like the bird 20 points.if the bird scores at least 80% of the score in each category. I put it in the breeder pen.and I don't grade my young birds till the spring. Birds that don't kit or turns out of the kit ore culls. Kittieng points are figured when a bird rolls how does he get back to the kit.
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yours in the sport Rick
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Double D
52 posts
Oct 25, 2005
5:20 PM
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I'm a little surprised at the answers as the model I was looking at had kitting least in importance. Maybe that's because for a competition kit, kitting is a given. I'd like to hear from a few more of you. Thanks guys for your responses.
Darin
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LONGS ROLLER LOFT
9 posts
Oct 25, 2005
5:45 PM
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I personally think there are two different aspects in kitting. One is a bird that has little desire to stay with the Kit.it either follows way behind or is easily turned away from the Kit. This bird is a cull no matter how good it rolls. The second one is the type of kitting you judge after the bird rolles. Did he come out of the role and turn toward the kit or away from the kit. Does he go back to the kit as fast as he can. Does he kit in the front the back or the middle. This is what I judge in Kitting.
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yours in the sport Rick
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big al
139 posts
Oct 25, 2005
7:22 PM
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Hey Double D,
You asked to put these criteria in order.
Velocity
Depth
Frequency
Kitting
Here you go...
Kitting is number one. Besides being the only way your team can score, it's nice to see a group of birds flying a nice pattern together. No matter how good a bird is, I have no use for it if it doesn't kit.
Velocity/Roll style would be next. Wing position and nice speed make for a spinner that looks good doing it.
In my opinion depth is the easiest to obtain if introduced properly, but it's important for me personally because I happen to like deep birds.
A bird can be frequent all day long but if it's not breaking with the team, it's only good for the "11 Bird" at my loft. Since I like both competions the bird could still have a place if it was an awesome spinner but would not be a priority bird.
Just my opinion. Hope it helps----------
See you in the roll!
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
214 posts
Oct 25, 2005
7:23 PM
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Well I wouldn't consider Kitting as being a "given" by any means. This is often one of the most troublesome things for competition flyers to deal with. Trust is a fragile comodity in roller comp kits.
If you were just into backyard enjoyment then you could effectively disregard kitting, but the unfortunate circumstance that tends to follow is that you will eventually breed more like them. If this person ever were to decide to fly in a competition, they would have painted themselves into a corner they couldn't get out of.
I would compare it to a fast car. Say you built a trick ride that could haul ass, it wouldn't matter how fast it would go if you couldn't steer it. LOL.
Brian.
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big al
140 posts
Oct 25, 2005
7:32 PM
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Hey Brian, Nice finally meeting you the other day! You guys hosted a nice show. I think Juan did a nice job judging as well.
Getting back to kitting. I was just telling a buddy that out of 10 lofts I may visit, 7 may have a kitting problem. I often wonder is it because some folks just don't cull as hard as others, or they just hate to give up that incredible spinner that won't kit? I've never had kitting problems because I don't tolerate the birds long enough. LOL! Again I just found it strange this season when visiting lofts that this was such an issue!
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See you in the roll!
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
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Double D
53 posts
Oct 25, 2005
10:21 PM
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Great insight and I appreciate the input. You guys are helping me a ton. Thanks again!
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nicksiders
257 posts
Oct 25, 2005
10:33 PM
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1. Kitting (this is not a given - if your kit is as wide as your backyard that ain't kitting. If you have out birds that number 2 or more that ain't kitting - you can't score without kitting)
2. Frequency (rollers are supposed to roll a lot. Several rolling on each break means that many birds are rolling often-that's how you score after you get them to kit)
3. Velocity
4. Depth - Birds with tremendous velocity usually roll shorter. Tail riding and sloppy roll usually roll deeper.
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J_Star
85 posts
Oct 26, 2005
5:05 AM
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DD,
Kitting is in the family. All pigeon flocks kit even homers or commies. But with some family of rollers (well inbreed) that is in their blood to kit like glue. On occasions, you find some young birds venture out of the kit for a while but come back, with time, they correct themselves. Therefore:
Kitting is #1 which is easy to attain if you have a very well inbreed family. Velocity is #2 which is harder to attain and you need to pair the right birds for that. The third is frequency which is also a bit harder to attain and require pairing the right birds also. Last is the depth, which will usually come when you follow the roll. How deep do you want them? Because that will also affect kitting, so kitting and depth might work against each other. All that is said, a flyer should work on a performance in unison…
This is only my opinion to this topic. Thanks.
Jay
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motherlodelofts
405 posts
Oct 26, 2005
6:33 AM
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Al how many of these non- kitters were actualy "great" spinners ?
Scott
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big al
144 posts
Oct 26, 2005
1:40 PM
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Hi Scott,
Hmmm, maybe only a few. 3% maybe? Again this is only what I've been seeing. What about you? Even when I see great kits, if there happens to be a problem with the team it's usually kitting. So I often wonder what the trainer hopes to accomplish by keeping them in the team. I assume they know it's a noticable problem. Of course I don't mean young birds, but a bird that does this regularly.
In fact anyone on this list who wants to comment...
tell us what fault you notice most with various teams when visiting a loft and observing them.
See you in the roll!
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
Last Edited by big al on Oct 26, 2005 1:47 PM
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nicksiders
259 posts
Oct 27, 2005
12:34 AM
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Good rollers kit. Bad rollers do not kit.
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merced guy
4 posts
Oct 27, 2005
11:49 AM
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kitting is important: Kitting seperates if you will score or not, so for comp. is must be #1. although it is interesting that naturally pigeons fly in a group or kits, but when given the circumstance like our rollers, non kitting or out birds is such a blow. Its also ironic that most lofts have a few or should I say that on any given day, there is one in most everyone's kit.
velocity and style is important, if one is quality minded
frequency is the threshold of you scoring some points or not if you have the rest.
depth is a standard for comp, 10 or more ft.
thong
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fhtfire
236 posts
Oct 27, 2005
6:03 PM
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Kitting is of course the most important....but many fanciers really do not have a problem with kitting..unless the birds are plain retarded. I have only culled one bird out of hundreds bred because of non kitting. Young birds go through phases of non kitting...when they hit there first roll for example. Most good families kit like glue...with me...I think they all go hand in hand....what good is a frequent bird if the roll sucks....if the roll sucks it is most likely not spinning very fast....is can be frequent and fast as a rocket but if it is not an A or H pattern it does not matter how fast it goes....depth...I have to agree with Al is the easiest to breed for. I do not feel that it is in any order....the birds that make the breeding loft have to have all the goods or close to it. So if I had to pick....I want a frequent bird....then it has to have good quality....does not matter how fast it is if the quality sucks....then I want velocity.....and last but not least is the depth...10' is not very deep at all...Hell 99% of my young birds can roll 10' LOL! Hell even my breeders can still put together a 10' roll..LOL...so Kitting of course is 1# but most families kit pretty good....2# frequent.......3# Quality......4# Speed...#5 depth...If is does not kit...then that speaks for itself...you can have all the quality and speed in the world...but if the birds only break one time every 5 min...then it does not matter....if you have the other traits....Quality is what it is all about....I have found that good quality and speed kind of go hand in hand.....depth is next and I feel is pretty easy to breed for....and it does not take much to get a bird to go 10-15'. This is just what I look for....But all in all...the birds should have all the goods.
rock and ROLL
Paul Fullerton
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Double D
54 posts
Oct 27, 2005
9:37 PM
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Based on my little unofficial survey, let me give you the results you guys gave me.
#1 is Kitting
#2 is Velocity
#3 is Frequency
#4 is Depth.
I realize everyone was a little different on some of the ones in the middle ranges but based on how you guys ranked them, this is what the numbers concluded.
Guys, again, thanks for the input, it was invaluable!
Darin
Last Edited by Double D on Oct 27, 2005 9:41 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
222 posts
Oct 27, 2005
9:44 PM
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Darin, one way to look at is like this.
#1 is the bowl that holds #2, #3 and #4. Without number one you just have a mess and no control or containment of the contents.
One other thing to consider is that Kitting is a state of mind and character.
The other three features you included are rolling performance.
Brian.
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Double D
55 posts
Oct 27, 2005
10:11 PM
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Excellent points Brian! Sometimes understanding is all about how an idea is conveyed. Thanks!
Darin
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Richard A.
72 posts
Oct 28, 2005
7:02 PM
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I agree with the majority:
1.Kitting
2.Velocity
3.Frequency
4.Depth
Al, you asked what do some of us see lacking as we go to view various kits. What I see lacking in most is true velocity. Once You've had real good velocity in your stock, with a Quality Roll, you will settle for nothing less. Most of the kits that I have seen that have good frequency, do not have good!! velocity. But, Real good velocity and real good frequency do not work hand in hand. you have to sacrifice speed in order to achieve real good frequency. This is my opinion. From breeding and by observation, the path to frequency is by using Grizzles and or Recessive Reds in the Breeding Program, but I dont believe that either can handle excessive speed.
Richard A.
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nicksiders
261 posts
Oct 28, 2005
11:46 PM
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Grizzles and Recessive Reds roll more frequently? You think it is all about spread and color?
O' Boy...........
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birdman
77 posts
Oct 29, 2005
5:06 PM
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#1 Kitting
#2 Velocity (with style = Quality)
#3 Depth
#4 Frequency
Obviously,without kitting, the other 3 are useless in competition. Velocity must have good style ('H' or better if you want the bigger multipliers for quality).
Depth with quality (quality = velocity x style)is better in my opinion, than either velocity with frequency or depth with frequency.
If I had to choose 3 of the 4, I would choose kitting, velocity (with style), and depth any day. Frequency is merely a bonus for both short and deep rollers and could actually help a short frequent kit beat a kit of deep, quality birds that don't break as much. Just my $0.02.
Russ
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motherlodelofts
419 posts
Oct 29, 2005
5:35 PM
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Where does "style" fit in ?
Richard you bring up some good points and here are my thoughts as to how this plays in with "my" birds.
I can manipulate both qaulity and workrate to a degree with my birds. I have seen many frquent kits like the one's that you describe and usually they are the hotter bred families .
If I have them right they will show what they are made of qaulity wise and get a good work rate.
If I take them over the edge the qaulity suffers but they can be very frequent.
If they are at this stage they are just doing a lot of popcorn type stuff that doesn't impress me in the least, as the qaulity just isn't there ,good judges won't score this stuff but poor ones will.
When I have them right both qaulity wise and work rate wise is when I have my best flys , they go hard and they go together and there is very little rolling except for on the breaks , big break stuff with qaulity.
When they are just frequent you'll usually see me looking down kicking at the gravel LOL.
Scott
PS I have bred some rec reds that can roll as fast as any, these are normaly hard tight feathered type , in fact there two in my A team now both over two years old.
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 29, 2005 6:03 PM
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Velo99
132 posts
Oct 30, 2005
5:36 AM
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Nick,
I have grizzles and a bunch of reds. It does seem in my loft like the more white a bird has the more frequent it is. This could be why we see a lot of white in rollers,ie white flights, tails, baldies and badges.
The grizzles are almost frustrating when they are young and trying to come in. They do the fly three feet and spin once thing for about two or three weeks. Then they start hitting the good ones. A good percentage of the frequent birds I fly end up being pretty decent rollers.
More depth equals less frequency which affects kitting which brings us to how deep?.This in turn could affect the veolcity which affects the depth which affects the....
#1 Kitting
#2 Velocity
#3 Depth
#4 Frequency
If you want to see how important kitting is read the WC fly report. A bunch of guys with quality birds got low scores from early landing and outbirds.
yits
v99
Last Edited by Velo99 on Oct 30, 2005 5:49 AM
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motherlodelofts
423 posts
Oct 30, 2005
8:06 AM
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Al I also see very few of the non kitters are what I call "good" spinners , the very nature of what causes them not to kit is the reason as it is a stability issue and such birds tend to have too quick of a trigger and fight the roll , some are 50/50 which means they can hit a good one or they may look like dog crap,kinda like youngsters.
I have seen a few that can hit good one's consistantly but by thier very nature of not being stable over time they end up falling completely apart.
And then some get a handle on it and become good kit birds.
Without a doubt my hardest spinners also kit like glue as they have the confidence to roll hard and only hold back down low.
Scott
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 30, 2005 8:07 AM
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nicksiders
264 posts
Oct 30, 2005
9:11 AM
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The point I am trying to make is the color red does not govern the type of roll, frequency, depth or anything about the roll and neither does the spread of grizzle.
If your good performer is red and you breed that performer many of your performers will be red. It is not the color of red that universaly performs in a certain manner.
Grizzles are not universally frequent performers. Only are the grizzles that are from your breeding practices are frequent.
This is like saying that if any flyer wants only frequency then he would only fly grizzles and recessive reds; anybody's.
Last Edited by nicksiders on Oct 30, 2005 9:12 AM
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Mongrel Lofts
64 posts
Oct 30, 2005
1:57 PM
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Velocity
Depth
Frequency
Kiting
For competition and scoring, which is the most important, second most important, third most important, and fourth most important?
And
Would you consider one twice as important as another or are they all close to importance to each other?
Thanks!
Darin
Darin,
I don't really think Kiting should be in with the other performance roll standards.
Kiting is much like being able to fly for a roller. If a roller can't fly he is useless. Same thing with kiting. So, if it doesn't kit, it might as well not be able to fly. Why? because it is a useless, worthless cull that might as well not have wings. So we can just take that one off the table.
1.Velocity. This is the one thing I think must be in the strain. You can't just make it up!
I think Muscle reflex and a quick twitch tendon is key to velocity in the roll.
2. Style. Has a lot to do with type. The old show standard and the one many still like to hold in the hand today, is a big reason for X style in rollers. Wide chest that narrows down to a one finger tail, usually means poor style.. It is Muscle and tendon strength and reflex we are after, not muscle mass. Many beginners are confused about this.
3. Quick trigger. The experienced roller man knows frequency is not what is really key to a good family of rollers. Rollers that are just frequent performers roll out of time with their team mates most of the time. What we want are birds that are triggered by the birds around them. When a bird bust in front of them, they are quick to follow in the roll. It takes some time to understand the difference, but there is a difference. Frequency is way over rated and sorely understood
4. Depth. I like them at least 20 feet. The deeper the better as long as they return to the kit after they roll. I might add deep birds must go on the breaks. This is key to flying deep birds in competition. Most think you can't fly deep birds in competition because the deep birds they have, roll alone and are out of time with the rest of the team. Nothing like a solid turn of 40 footers.
Just some thoughts on your question Darin. I hope you find something you can use in them.. Mongrel Lofts
Last Edited by Mongrel Lofts on Oct 30, 2005 1:59 PM
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Double D
57 posts
Oct 30, 2005
2:55 PM
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KGB,
What you did was take my question to the next level and I really appreciate that. That's the insight that comes from someone with your dedication and experience that becomes invaluable to the newcomer. Thanks for taking the time as I'm sure there are plenty of individuals like me who really appreciate the lines you write in response to all of these questions!
Darin
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