big al
147 posts
Oct 29, 2005
3:41 AM
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Hi everybody
I know we've covered the topic of rolldowns in the past but during a recent conversation with some guys in L.A. and on another forum,I expressed these views.
Regarding straight out, proven hard core rolldowns, I don't use them for breeding at all.
However I have an observation about them... I think a rolldown in most cases is only as good as it's genetic possibilities.
In other words...
If the rolldown in question comes from a family that normally breeds stability at about 20 feet, but this particular bird rolls down regularly and smells pavement anywhere from 50 to 100 feet, is it a deep roller or a 20 foot roller with no control? Hmmm?
Which brings another question... If it rolls down but is from a stable family will it throw stable offspring? Or will it sooner or even later pass on a rolldown trait that's been somewhat hidden that will act like a computer virus in your stock when bred?
I got varied responses. LOL!!
So here's what I actually believe... :-)
Regarding a rolldown from a stable family...
I believe that this type of rolldown is a bird that genetically is only as deep as the family typically allows, making it not a true deep roller but a roller with no control. (make sense?) A true deep roller is one that can stop! :-)
Stable offspring?...
Yes and no. It depends on how strong the trait is in the bird, and if you cross it outside of the family. I've seen it work and not. I wouldn't bother though.
Just my teeny weeny little views. :-)
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See you in the roll!
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
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nicksiders
263 posts
Oct 29, 2005
8:42 PM
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Why chance it? I don't have time to see if it produces stable birds and as a consequence I do not breed roll downs.
I will not breed anything that does not hold up or meet my own standards. This is something Kenny convienced me of in an earlier post with a truely simple, but profound statement.
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
224 posts
Oct 29, 2005
10:10 PM
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Al, I think it depends on what a person feels his family or stock needs. If you produce lots of roll and get some roll downs, breeding from a roll down would serve no purpose. But if your stock always produces shallow and less frequent birds, the rare deeper bird that lacks control might bring something to the table. Even still I would be pretty reluctant to breed from a stone cold roll down, regardless of what kind of family it is from.
Brian.
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Velo99
131 posts
Oct 30, 2005
5:19 AM
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I have a line of grizzle birds I have taken a special interest in. I had a 2 hens from the cousins rolldown last year. The rest are approaching hot.I bred the best hen from the squeaks I got last year to a red bar cock I haven`t seen fly. He had the best body type of the cocks I had available. I have one cock of this line but he is the sister to the best hen.
I raised three rounds and ended up with four pretty good birds. They are all hens. I will keep going till I hit the roll down or get a good cock. I did get a cock bird out of the brother on another mating. But alas he is not going to meet the need unless he improves greatly over the winter.
How should I mate these birds to get the best chicks on paper? I have five hens and three cocks available this season for this project.
This is my "project" take em to the rolldown and back em up a bit. I want these birds to impress the guests and possible recruits. Fly out 10-15 bird kit of 50-60 footers.
YITS
v99
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motherlodelofts
421 posts
Oct 30, 2005
6:52 AM
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Al all I can ask is why ? , it amazes me how the tiniest of traits are passed on and yet people still want to look at birds with major faults for stock.
As to what it would breed , hard to say, could go either way or both ,might skip generations ,who knows , either way it is there somwhere.
Why do rolldowns roll down ? probaby the largest reason is that they do so because they are mentaly weak and cannot handle the roll.
For some reason I just prefer breeding out of my best over culls , not sure why that is LOL LOL
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 30, 2005 1:58 PM
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upcd
55 posts
Oct 31, 2005
2:01 AM
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WHY? Do people in California love roll downs? Do they want to watch a bird kill its self. Is it a thrill? Why let a bird abuse itself in the name of a show. I would rather watch a cloud of rollers rain down and go back up and the beautiful show continues again. Now that is a THRILL!
Last Edited by upcd on Oct 31, 2005 2:02 AM
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Velo99
133 posts
Oct 31, 2005
5:08 AM
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There we go again, judging another mans projects. Ask a question and get static. I just asked how to develop a deeper line of birds. How can my wanting to find the breaking point for my birds be an undesirable action in the opinion of you guys? I did explain why Scott, they will be the equivelent of roller bling. Great looking birds with a super deep roll.
You guys do it every time you prep for a fly. Push em to the edge and them pull em back just a bit.
I do not fly rolldowns. They usually cull themselves right off. The rolldowns took care of themselves last year, the birds I have now are more stable and don`t even bump. I know the rolldown isn`t far away. I just want to find it.
yits
V99
Last Edited by Velo99 on Oct 31, 2005 5:13 AM
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Mongrel Lofts
66 posts
Oct 31, 2005
5:52 AM
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There we go again, judging another mans projects. Ask a question and get static. I just asked how to develop a deeper line of birds. How can my wanting to find the breaking point for my birds be an undesirable action in the opinion of you guys? I did explain why Scott, they will be the equivelent of roller bling. Great looking birds with a super deep roll.
You guys do it every time you prep for a fly. Push em to the edge and them pull em back just a bit.
bt
V99,
Why ask a question if all you want is people to agree with you? You got some good solid advise from people on this topic about breeding from roll downs. Can it be done yes. Is it a faulty method that weakens the stock at hand and brings in things you will struggle with down the road, Yes!
V 99, if you want approval of this type of chaotic breeding method, you should go over to that color breeding list. They advocate this type breeding all the time to get some roll in their birds. I doubt you will find much agreement with breeding from roll downs from men with good solid Birmingham roller stock. This is just the wrong place for Bling without sting!!!!
When you ask a question about breeding from roll downs. I don't think you should consider it judging you when good men say its a haphazard way of breeding. Used by those who don't understand breeding rollers much, and those trying to put roll in birds that don't have it naturally.. You want deep rollers with control V99, just start breeding from deep rollers with control and cull the roll downs. Just another opinion. Mongrel Lofts
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motherlodelofts
425 posts
Oct 31, 2005
6:07 AM
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V 99 , you were "not" on my mind when I posted what I posted , I posted my opinion to Al's post.
But since you brought your post to my attention, I think that you are looking in the wrong direction to achieve what you want to achieve, first you must have a bird that is able to handle hard rolling depth , most rolldowns are not build to take it and that is why they are rolldowns. Kinda like putting a 500 horse motor in a Pinto.
Now lets go a little deeper and maybe what Al was hitting on , are there birds that have the strengths under normal hard spinning conditions but just to much motor ? I would say yes , but then you are talking about breeding a bird that still has to much roll to handle it,is it a wash ? because you are sitll breeding a bird that cannot handle the roll it has , there is another bird and it is the type of bird that "I" strive for , this bird can roll 3 feet or 40 depending on how safe it is to cut it loose , it is a bird that has the strength and the confidence to cut it loose and yet is not controled by the roll , and such birds will do so year after year.
Breeding out of rolldowns is breeding away from such birds as what I just described in my opinion.
Scott
a very complex bird indeed.
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Oct 31, 2005 6:10 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
540 posts
Oct 31, 2005
7:10 AM
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Someone said awhile back that the only difference between a Champion Roller and a Rolldown was 6 feet.Even the best roller can make a mistake and crash.Was it a Rolldown.Could you have bred from that same roller and created more rolldowns?We have battled this around before and I still stand firm in that there is a big difference in a True Rolldown and a Bird that Rolls down.If you don,t know the difference then you shouldn,t breed from either.I also believe that you have to breed on that very thin line between the 2.Somewhere around the 6 foot mark.LOL. David
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nicksiders
268 posts
Oct 31, 2005
12:01 PM
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One bump does not make a roll down. You know a roll down when you see it. Multiple bumps in one fly is a roll down especially when the bird shows a lot of "ignorance" in the loft. I know you have seen it............that dumb ass look and seemingly always lost.
When the bird don't even recognize you thing.
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J_Star
91 posts
Oct 31, 2005
12:55 PM
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Even thou, I have flown my birds for two seasons b4 thinking of breeding them. I have several cocks and hens that don't hit anything such as the ground or tree tops and always adjust their depth based on the distance they are flying from the ground. I am sure that allot of you have some of those kind of birds around your loft. Use them as breeders’ b4 the other bumpers. I also have some hot ones that bumped once or twice, and usually are hens; they also have a place in the breeding loft to the right mate.
The bottom line is stability in the breeding pen. Everything else is a secondary. That is my take on any breeding program.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Oct 31, 2005 1:20 PM
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big al
152 posts
Oct 31, 2005
2:13 PM
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Hi guys,
I think some of my question went unanswered. :-)
I want to know your thoughts on this aspect of the rolldown.
Read again what I posted earlier...
"I think a rolldown in most cases is only as good as it's genetic possibilities.
In other words...
If the rolldown in question comes from a family that normally breeds stability at about 20 feet, but this particular bird rolls down regularly and smells pavement anywhere from 50 to 100 feet, is it a deep roller or a 20 foot roller with no control?
There's more... for those who use rolldowns as breeders and don't know the answer, Is that a little risky for your stock?
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See you in the roll!
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
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Velo99
134 posts
Oct 31, 2005
3:31 PM
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Okay Guys.
I guess I got your attention.Let me explain further. I would like to breed from some already deep birds I have,not rolldowns, I don`t like rolldowns either, that are too deep for a comp kit. I feel I have the birds in place just asking for advice in setting up the pairs on paper.
I don`t want to get a bunch of static started. :(
YITS
v99
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big al
154 posts
Oct 31, 2005
8:44 PM
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Hi v99,
I don't think it was static my friend. :-)
It's just that roller guys direct their energy in different directions sometimes. There is absolutely nothing wrong with your idea depending on your intent for the birds.
For instance, I was visiting a loft once in Inglewood Ca, where a guy flies very, very deep birds. (Around the 70'plus range!) He doesn't fly these birds in competition because competition does not interest him. They are a little slower to get back up and set-up again, they don't break as a team as much as he'd like but he loves the entertainment! He's a backyard breeder and spends most of his time on projects dealing with extreme depth and various colors. I've always loved deep birds and was very entertained! I admired his skill and knowledge in this area and we talked a good while.
V99, a lot of guys on this list are competing or planning to in the near future, so in most cases their goal is to get the best competition bird bred as quickly as possible.
Sure, some have side projects, but the goal is competition. For this reason their passion will many times be misunderstood when talking about breeding. It's nothing personal, it's just passion for a direction they feel is the best way to go if they are to become one of the best.
I would say that most guys on this list at one time in their lives have used a rolldown. LOL!! Maybe as a kid or novice. However most would not consider it these days because of the direction they're going in.
I realize you are speaking of very deep birds and not rolldowns. However in some case the same points I mentioned above would still apply. I currently have a project pair consisting of very deep roll! However they are just that for now and there's nothing wrong with breeding them. I plan on having fun with them as long as ther is stability. :-)
We are making a strong effort on this site to appreciate and respect all opinions whether they fit into our particular program or not. Your questions and views are appreciated and are as important as anyone's.
It's just important that we don't misunderstand another's post and assume it's negative.
Tony and I would love for everyone to scroll down and take a peek at the topic "Guest Moderator" It's a message that encourages everyone to enjoy this site with any topics regarding rollers. We just want to do it with the style I know we all have.
So do your thing V99 it's okay because you have to enjoy your birds more than anyone. It sounds like you're doing that. As long as the guys understand where you're coming from, I think you'll get great advise. They just have to come out of comp mode and sometimes you may have to get in it. LOL!
So sorry for the long post.
Hope this helps.
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See you in the roll!
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
541 posts
Nov 01, 2005
3:41 AM
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Big Al. Very good post.
This computer world we live in is so fast paced and untill 5 years ago I didn,t even know how to turn one on.
The computer has been a tool that has brought the Whole World together.We have almost instant contact with just about any thing and anyone.Without the computer where would we be.I know I would not be where I am with my Rollers.Heck I would still be just a backyard breeder enjoying my birds.But thanks to Forums like Tony's and others and all the Great information that can be learned from each other they finally convinced me to Compete in the Fall Fly.And as you already know I was able to win my region and also place in the Finals.Not to shabby for only 2 Competition flys I have been told.LOL.
The One point I would like to get across to everyone in this Post is that sometimes as we write Posts there is a Big communication loss thru what someone is thinking and what comes across on the computer.Things would sometimes not sound as harsh if we were talking to each other in person.We can,t see the other smiling as they write and sometimes things that are said as a joke becomes words that is taking for being hostile.
I read everything and if it's something I like or think it will help me I try it.If it don't work I keep it in the notes to maybe try it again sometime.
Big Al again very good post and should allow everyone the thought to not jump the gun and think that each poster is trying to make you believe the way they do.
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motherlodelofts
428 posts
Nov 01, 2005
6:18 AM
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Al tell us about the qaulity of those deep birds, to be honest that is the first thing that pops into my mind when reading this.
Scott
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motherlodelofts
429 posts
Nov 01, 2005
6:24 AM
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Dave I think that the diffence between a rolldown and a "great" bird is night and day , there is nothing alike about them, at least not in my loft.
(the word chamion I don't even use) Champ one day ,chump the next LOL
Scott
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
542 posts
Nov 01, 2005
9:16 AM
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Scott/Anyone.Approx. how many rolldowns do you raise a year out of 100 young? Just Curious. David
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dave
24 posts
Nov 01, 2005
10:15 AM
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I think that some people might be confusing a chronicle bumper or a bird with only one depth in mind vs a true roll down.
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J_Star
96 posts
Nov 01, 2005
10:59 AM
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Dave, what is the difference? They are all unstable...but have different names and category. If I have my choice in breeding, I will chose the stable ones first, the bumbers second, the chronical bumbers third but never a rolldown. But b4 I use the second or third, I would try to purchase some stable stock to enhance mine. But it is all your choice, no one knows other people rollers better than the owner himself. If you see it best fit to your stock and could change the bar one notch up, by all means go for it.
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dave
25 posts
Nov 01, 2005
11:50 AM
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I agree that they are faults. I myself prefer stable birds. I confused one dimensional depth birds and bumpers with rollerdowns when I got into the hobby. Nothing is worse then having a kit of nice fast spinners hitting on all cylinders and then a couple of days before comp you get a few that will hit hard on you and mess up the chemistry of your kit.
Last Edited by dave on Nov 01, 2005 11:53 AM
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big al
155 posts
Nov 01, 2005
2:07 PM
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Hey Scott,
The cock is a black self from a good buddy of mine Eddie Verdugo in Hemet. The hen is a recessive Red from some Old Homer Corderre stock. The hen I've used before on a cock from Rod Fomby's "97" champion World Cup family with nice results. She is heated with very nice depth, a lot of great speed and good roll style.
The cock is very deep,
(I can't remember exactly what Eddie told me, maybe 60' plus or so?) balls up in the roll, pulls out and goes right back up to the team. Eddie pulled it out of the kit and handed it to me.
They have thrown me 4 ash red cocks and one black hen. Since I fostered, all the youngsters were born within a few weeks of each other and are just now taking short flights around the yard.
To answer your question, the quality will be there but the pair may be a little hot. We'll see.----------
See you in the roll!
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
Last Edited by big al on Nov 02, 2005 4:10 PM
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big al
156 posts
Nov 01, 2005
2:10 PM
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Hi David,
I've bred about 60 birds this year and have had 2 rolldowns from seperate pairs
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See you in the roll!
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
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upcd
57 posts
Nov 01, 2005
6:35 PM
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Greetings Guys, When I made my statement regrauding birds that injury or kill themselves. I was not talking about anybody on this borad. These are people in Calif. that call and want to buy sucides or bumpers thinking, they are cool. The sick ones. Sorry, if I offended anyone.
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motherlodelofts
431 posts
Nov 01, 2005
8:38 PM
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Dave I will normaly get 2-3 rolldowns a year and maybe 4 - 5 that will badly injure or kill themselfs from bumping.
This year I have had one only one rolldown and none kill themselfs from bumping. I had one disapear that was on the hotside so I'm sure that could be counted in.
The good thing is my that my percentage of truely good youngsters looks very good this year and yet unstable birds are down , very few going through a bumping stage coming in also.
I don't look at bumpers and such as the type of heat that I want.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Nov 01, 2005 8:43 PM
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motherlodelofts
432 posts
Nov 01, 2005
8:44 PM
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Al how old was the cock when pulled from the kit ?
Scott
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big al
162 posts
Nov 02, 2005
12:53 AM
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Hey Scott,
He was a little young if I remember correctly not more than about 8 or 9 months? Can't be sure I'll check. I usually don't breed anything unless it's been in the air a year although I have made exceptions in the past.
The reason this is a project pair is because I'm unsure how the two families will mix especially being so hot in the roll. Decent looking youngsters so far. I'm looking forward to seeing them in action in a few months.
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See you in the roll!
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
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Ballrollers
131 posts
Nov 02, 2005
8:25 AM
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David, Al, I bred about 100 birds and have bred no rolldowns that have shown up yet...maybe good, maybe bad. LOL I have an April hatch, a black self hen out of a red check hen, the fastest spinner Jay says he ever raised, and her nestmate brother as a pairing. The black hen is infrequent, but 20 ft. and fast when she goes. Two weeks ago she rolled down from 50 ft. spinning hard...not the usual sloppy, out of control, roll down. Next day, she flew and rolled fine...in fact all week. On Saturday, boom she hits a fast spin and hits the grass again from 75 ft. This is in the hieght of flight, not during landing or "take off". Sunday, she flew and rolled with control again. She may be a rolldown-in-the-making, but not the typical development. She's on 75/25 wheat to peas, so unless it is an individual feeding problem, I don't think it's the feed. Any takes on this?? Wishful thinking, I know. YITS Cliff
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Phantom1
75 posts
Nov 02, 2005
8:54 AM
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Hey guys!
I wanted to throw this out there for discussion. I have my own personal views about rolldowns. There's a lot of discussion and debate on whether or not to breed from them and what the pros and cons for doing so are.
My question is this, and it relates to Al's original question about "Genetic Possibilities or Potential". Could a rolldown be an early sign that a stable family is becoming a bit unstable? If so, what are the options at hand? Cull for it and hope it goes away? Use the rolldown in a different way - possibly by outcrossing or giving the bird away to someone else to inject into their own family? Breed it to another rolldown and establish a nice family of Parlor Rollers?
If the rolldown came from an established and stable family - why did it show up? I think that's the biggest question in my mind. Perhaps when these birds show up, the screw has been tightened a little too tight on the entire family.
My two cents...
Yours in the hobby,
Eric
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
544 posts
Nov 02, 2005
10:07 AM
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Cliff.This is a perfect example of what I call a bird that rolls down.Not a Rolldown.LOL.
This type of roller if laid up for 7 to 10 days and fed up good will most times overcome this.My opinion is that some of these young birds(especially the ones that has velocity)just don,t have the muscle built up to keep it together yet.I usually give this type 3 chances or untill after they get thru their first moult.Most times when I get this type bird is when they are going thru their first moult.
Not all will make it.Some just get worse and usually cull their self.
I usually average 1 true rolldown in 20 and 3 in 20 that are bumpers or birds that roll down.David
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big al
163 posts
Nov 02, 2005
11:20 AM
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Hey there Cliff,
I'm kind of thinking on the same lines as David. "It may roll down but may not be a rolldown" :-)
Also depending on the amount of time that particular family needs to come in, it may still be trying to get a grip on things at 7 months.
Oh yeah... did you say you were giving this bird 75% wheat and 25% peas?
Try switching it around using 75% grain instead of peas and keep the wheat at 25%.
Maybe the wheat ration has her a little too broken down so she's rolling like crazy but getting boosted behind it with peas?
75% wheat can keep some families way over the edge.
Ya' never know?
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See you in the roll!
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
Last Edited by big al on Nov 02, 2005 11:30 AM
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Ballrollers
134 posts
Nov 02, 2005
3:32 PM
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David, Al, Thanks for the comments and advice. That is what I was thinking, as well, with this bird. Al, you said try 75% grain and 25% wheat. What grain did you have in mind? A mix? YITS Cliff
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big al
167 posts
Nov 02, 2005
4:07 PM
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Hi Cliff,
Yeah maybe a 12%. (With small corn if you're going to use it).
I think you'll see the bird slow up a little and start trying to develop it's roll from a little higher up.
With some families, wheat makes the birds a little faster on the wing and fly higher. They seem to rush the roll sometimes. The combo I'm speaking of will keep them up and hopefully a little slower on the wing where she can work and come into a good consistent stable roll in short time. Again it's a family affair Cliff so if they seem a little too strong, go from 75% to 65% and try that for a couple weeks.
Hope this helps...
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See you in the roll!
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
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scotty
16 posts
Nov 02, 2005
10:42 PM
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As far as rolldowns go,I have breed a small percentage since Iv'e been raising Birminghams.Some just continualy can't control themselves,Other's roll from a young age to there death.I have to put these type to the wayside.-Mike
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motherlodelofts
433 posts
Nov 03, 2005
6:22 AM
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Dave I agree with you that the roll is hitting them before they just aren't physicaly and or mentaly mature enough to handle it, BUT is that something that we want with-in our birds ? and yes I see it here also here and there, and what a pain in the butt they are !!!.
I will do very little babying such a bird but I will to a short extent , I have enough young birds showing me potential without the problems.
but I will baby a young bird more that is showing unstability and hitting excess depth and holding the roll through it but not anything near a rolldown status.
Cliff,if that bird was in my family the chances of it becoming more than what it is would be slim to none , they rarely reverse the other way if they coming down from that ht. but I have had the rare one that does , I just keep em fed up and keep flying in secondary kits or even a cull kit.
If they straighten up I never ever breed out of them, I think of it this way "would I want to put up with a whole kit of youngbirds doing this ? "
I don't care how good a bird looks , major faults allways trump it.
I wait for the "rare" one that comes along that has everything I want in a bird without the problems for stock.
The one's that were more of a headach but straighten up spend their lives in the kitbox.
just my opinion
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Nov 03, 2005 6:44 AM
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Ballrollers
135 posts
Nov 03, 2005
7:13 AM
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Thanks for the clarification, Al. I'll give it a try.
Scott, I have kept your breeding philosophy, "Would I want to put up a whole kit of these?" as the dominant theme in my pairings, especially when tempted to use a bird that is not ideal in some areas, and hoping to improve the line by breeding in something better. Pensom said never to breed to improve faults in a bird, yet most guys seem to do it (like Joe Bob), though perhaps on a more subtle basis, not using rolldowns or those like the bird I described above. It gets a little confusing sometimes. With this particular bird, I was more curious about input as to whether it was a loft management issue (perhaps feed) or a genetic issue, because her behavior was different from that of most rolldowns, and showing excellent kitting, stable flight and spinning most of the time. YITS Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Nov 03, 2005 7:47 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
546 posts
Nov 03, 2005
8:52 AM
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Scott.I have and still do breed from a roller like Cliff described if it goes on and gets a handle on everything and becomes a stable roller.The one thing I proved to myself is that I see no difference in percentages of their young as I do in the ones I pick as breeders that never showed any stability problems.
But I have several legs of this family and I don,t inbreed that tight that the birds fall apart on me either.Sure that fault may still be carried along but look at the good rollers that come out of this also.If this type roller winds up in a winning kit isn't that what we are breeding for? David
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motherlodelofts
447 posts
Nov 05, 2005
9:06 AM
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Dave I concentrate on the "big" picture within my loft, it is like shooting pool , if you take only the easy shots you screw yourself in the long run.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Nov 05, 2005 9:06 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
553 posts
Nov 05, 2005
9:29 AM
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Scott. I don,t have that much time left to make a long run.So I am going to take any shortcut I can find.LOL. David
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Richard A.
76 posts
Nov 06, 2005
7:44 PM
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Al, I can honestly say that the hen that you are referring to is a good stable roller, and fron a good stable family. The cock from Eddie is probably from my old stock. The old stock is deep!! and sometimes not too stable, depending on what they are mated to.
Also I might mention that after what I have seen at your house lately, you dont have to be using questionable matings. Your percentages appear to be way up there. Keep up the great matings.
Your Good Friend, Richard Apodaca
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big al
187 posts
Nov 06, 2005
9:05 PM
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Richard A.
I have no doubt!! Remember her and Jackson threw those nice badges last year!
Jackson's roll style is just as good as any I've seen, and I use him because no matter who I put him on the youngsters have his style. I mate him to super fast hens.
The cock from Eddie is undoubtably faster and is clearly much deeper in the roll than Jackson so I thought this would be a fun project pair.
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See you in the roll!
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
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