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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Double dose Grizzle too much?
Double dose Grizzle too much?
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big al
190 posts
Nov 07, 2005
9:36 PM
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Hey everybody,
Question...
I judged a very nice lawn show this weekend and one of the gentlemen in the club mentioned something I've heard on a few occassions from other roller folk around the country.
He didn't want to mate a particular pair of birds
(Both grizzle) because he would get "Double Dose" grizzle and the birds would be too hot?
Although I've had and love the beauty of a grizzle, since I've been back into rollers this time around, I don't have any in my kit or stock. When I raised rollers before, I got a few from my buddy Bob Scott from time to time but only flew them.
So clarify "Double Dose Factor" and it's complications if you feel there are any.----------
See you in the roll!
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
Last Edited by big al on Nov 07, 2005 10:44 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
240 posts
Nov 07, 2005
10:52 PM
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Al, there are different types of grizzle and some can be somewhat recessive in nature. But by and large, grizzle is a non-sex linked partial dominant. And like most dominants, can be expressed either heterozygous (one dose) or homozygous (two doses). Grizzle technically isn't really a color gene, but rather acts more like a marking or pattern gene separately from the intended color or marking of the bird. You can think it grizzle in similiar terms as spread, though obviously they are clearly very different. But the inheritance is the same.
If you mate two het grizzles together, the general laws conclude your offspring will be 25% homozygous grizzle, 50% het grizzle and 25% non grizzle. If you mate a homozygous grizzle to a non grizzle, 100% of the offspring will express grizzle to some level.
In some families where guys have found their birds to be a a little on the hot side if they are grizzle, they usually shy away from mating two grizzles together, simply because their experience has shown that the homozygous (two doses--one from each parent) will be too hot.
Is this true in every family? Absolutely not. The generalizing in regards to its effects on performance are similar to that of recessive red. They have unique results in different lofts and families. I raise a number of grizzles and I can say that at my house, the grizzles are usually stiffer than their non grizzle siblings. By no means is that an absolute, but rather just something I have noticed.
Brian.
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big al
191 posts
Nov 08, 2005
4:30 AM
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Hi Brian,
Elaborate on non sex linked?
Also, in essence you're saying like anything else pertaining to rollers, in regard to grizzle and too much roll, it's "All in the Family?" :-)
I equate pretty much everything pertaining to rollers to
the family.
Have you found any of the generalizations regardig Recessive Red to be fact or "All in the Family?"
Thanks Brian
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See you in the roll!
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
Last Edited by big al on Nov 08, 2005 4:47 AM
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Ballrollers
152 posts
Nov 08, 2005
7:39 AM
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Brian, Al,
Don't you think we can just about rule out any of the sweeping genralizations regarding colors and patterns to performance? It seems to be family or strain-dependent and is not consistent accross the board, by any means. We can find hot, roll-down blue checks and stiff homozygous grizzles; the opposite of the color balancing theories. I do see a closer relationship between color factors (like dilute)and character, thus having an indirect relationship to performance; but even that is not consistent by any measns. YITS Cliff
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highroller
83 posts
Nov 08, 2005
9:07 AM
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Big Al,
non sex linked simply means something is operating independent of, or nor linked to the sex of the bird. A blue cock X ash red hen mating for example IS sex linked because all the hens from this mating will be blue and all cocks will be ash red carrying blue. The grizzle factor does not depend on the sex of the bird to be passed on, it can go to either sex so it is non sex linked.
Dan
Last Edited by highroller on Nov 08, 2005 9:13 AM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
242 posts
Nov 08, 2005
9:14 AM
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Al, non sex-linked means the pattern or color is not determined by the sex chromosome. For example, If you mate a red cock to a yellow hen, all offspring are red unless the cock carries dilute. If he does carry dilute, any yellows produced are automatically hens, they are linked to the sex of their parents, primarily their father. Basically Al, most colors are linked to the sex chromosomes. Grizzle is not one of them as it really isn't a color. So being non-sex-linked, grizzle can be on any bird of any sex from a mating in which one of the parents was a grizzle.
On the generalizing, I try not to generalize on things like color. I have yet to see recessive reds or grizzles be any hotter or stiffer than my other colors. Often they are a little less frequent if anything. I do believe that in some cases the links between recessive color genes and other mutations such as grizzle and even to a small extent, indigo, do have some unique effect on the character of the bird, thus the performance of the bird. There is no way to justify it, and really no need to. We can only go off of what we experience. If I tell you to mate a black self with a rec red, does that mean that the offspring will be overdone? Hell No. But to some, that is a lethal mating.
Brian.
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highroller
84 posts
Nov 08, 2005
9:19 AM
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Brian,
If I mated a red cock carrying yellow to a yellow hen I would get yellows in both sexes, wouldn't I? If the red cock carried yellow and the hen was red then any yellows must be hens, right?
Dan
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nicksiders
282 posts
Nov 08, 2005
9:24 AM
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So your saying that a spread or color makes the birds hot?
Are you saying that the spread "grizzle" is always hot?
Are you saying that color or spread is the way a bird can be judged as being hot or not before it even gets off the perch?
If you want a hot bird just mate a grizzle to a grizzle?
Sorry about the redundency.
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
245 posts
Nov 08, 2005
11:43 AM
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Brian,
If I mated a red cock carrying yellow to a yellow hen I would get yellows in both sexes, wouldn't I? If the red cock carried yellow and the hen was red then any yellows must be hens, right?
Dan
I just noticed I didn't word that correctly. Thanks Dan, yes if a red cock split for dilute is mated to yellow, then you would get cocks and hens in dilute. Your last sentence is also correct as I am sure you already well knew..lol. Thanks for correcting me.
So your saying that a spread or color makes the birds hot?
Nope, but in some families there are tendencies that prove that to be true. In other lofts, it has no bearing.
Are you saying that the spread "grizzle" is always hot?
Spread grizzle? That would be two different modifiers and has the same answer as the one above this one.
Are you saying that color or spread is the way a bird can be judged as being hot or not before it even gets off the perch?
Nope, but in some families that owner can make a pretty good analysis about the bird based on its color. You might not want to hear that but it is very true. Not at my house though.
If you want a hot bird just mate a grizzle to a grizzle?
If you have the right family, sure. You can do the same thing by just mating two hot birds of any color together.
Sorry about the redundency.
No problem. Just remember this...there are no absolutes in rollers.
Brian.
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big al
193 posts
Nov 08, 2005
4:45 PM
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Dan and Brian,
Excellent examples!
Thanks much!!
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See you in the roll!
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
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