Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
560 posts
Nov 09, 2005
4:57 PM
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I have been told that a roller that comes out of the roll facing away from the kit switched wings.Therefore it is a fault and won,t be scored.
How can anyone say the bird switched at the end of the roll or was just the way it started the roll? I am talking about a roller that does this everytime it rolls.Solid 25 footer but always comes out facing away from the kit.I have watched this bird close and I never have seen a blip.Comes out clean and makes a quick turn right back to the kit.Would like some thoughts on this. David
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big al
196 posts
Nov 09, 2005
5:59 PM
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Hi Dave,
I think you may be talking about 2 different things. A bird that comes out of a roll facing away from the kit is not considered wing switching from my understanding. We just call a bird that does this...
"A bird that comes out of the roll facing away from the kit" :-) LOL!! For lack of a better term. :-)
Here's how I describe wing switching...
During the period when a bird is coming into the roll it fails to develop the proper technique or skill to control it's decent, or stop when it feels the desire to.
So during the actual spin, the bird without breaking stride quickly turns on the left or right wing causing it's body to face another direction while still spinning. Sometimes birds can come out of the habit, but the ones I've seen usually don't. Some birds may do it because they're afraid of coming into the roll.
I owned a very fast 30' red checkered hen a few years ago that did this. She did come out of it when I made changes to her diet where she wasn't as light.
Hope this helps a little.
See you in the roll!
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
Last Edited by big al on Nov 09, 2005 6:03 PM
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dave
35 posts
Nov 09, 2005
6:08 PM
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Here's my opinion. From what I have seen, if a bird is flying in one direction and then goes into a fast spin and comes out the other direction then it changed wings as it was spinning. Sometimes it is so fast that you really have to pay attention. A bird that is flying one direction should come out that direction also unless the kit went off in a different direction.
I don't think the finals judge would score a bird like that especially if it was in a 11 bird kit.
Last Edited by dave on Nov 09, 2005 6:15 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
562 posts
Nov 10, 2005
4:01 AM
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Is it switching wings or just not completing the last revolution? David
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merced guy
13 posts
Nov 10, 2005
9:24 AM
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just my thought----I think when a bird is rolling, it is doing a backflip, now a backflip is just a back flip, when you land your still facing the same direction where you started. dave might be right that it probably switch so fast you didn't see it. or it could be this--maybe on your bird's last rotation before it stop, it swtich wing thus causing it to be in a different direction and thats why you didn't see it.
my two cent
in the sport
thong
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dave
36 posts
Nov 10, 2005
10:05 AM
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If it didn't complete the revolution then it should be upside down when he comes out facing the opposite directions, lol.
Last Edited by dave on Nov 10, 2005 10:07 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
564 posts
Nov 10, 2005
10:54 AM
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Good Point Dave.Makes sense to me.LOL David
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nicksiders
291 posts
Nov 10, 2005
7:31 PM
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If they end up going the opposite direction they would have had to switch wings or as Dave said they would be upside down if it was due to an incomplete roll.
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big al
199 posts
Nov 10, 2005
9:20 PM
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Hi Guys,
It's just a direction change, and in order to accomplish it the bird has to be rolling straight facing let's say north, then favor or roll on a wing to face him let's say south. He does this without stopping the roll at all. I guess direction switching would be the more accurate term. LOL! It just happens to create a strange illusion when the bird rolls on one wing to accomplish this direction change. (Wing switch)
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See you in the roll!
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
566 posts
Nov 11, 2005
1:34 AM
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I am thinking of breeding 10 more just like it then they will all be headed in the right direction.LOL. David
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Ballrollers
180 posts
Nov 11, 2005
6:38 PM
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David, (Al, Guys),
About a year ago I had the same questions about wing switching, and submitted them to the lists for discussion. As you can imagine, a debate ensued with about 100 posts with a wide range of opinions from the veteran flyers and judges. Hardly anybody agreed on what was a fault and what was scoreable! The opinion was so diverse that it prompted me to write an article on the issue of judging standards and scoring standards in the NBRC journal. I think it ran in the first or second journal this year. You might find it informative. Let me know if you don't find it and I'll get you a copy.
YITS Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Nov 11, 2005 6:39 PM
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motherlodelofts
477 posts
Nov 12, 2005
7:20 AM
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Not sure why particular birds will do this, sometimes I will see particular birds that come out facing the wrong way do a real quick loop at the end of the roll to straighn themselfs out.
What is also amazing to me is that such birds will even pass this stuff on if bred.
These type of birds screw up the "fluidness" of a team and creates choas.
A bird must "snap" out of the roll facing the right direction, anything else is
faulty
I myself have no use for such birds as the exit has to be clean and correct , if they cannot come out of the roll clean and correct the majority of the time then I consider them nothing short culls
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Nov 12, 2005 7:28 AM
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Velo99
162 posts
Nov 12, 2005
1:23 PM
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I have birds that wing switch but not all of the time.I feel they can`t be expected to roll perfectly everytime. Sometimes the kit will change direction while a bird is in mid roll and I have seen them switch to come out facing the kit and make it quicker to kit. Is that a fault?
YITS
V99
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motherlodelofts
481 posts
Nov 12, 2005
1:48 PM
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No Kenny it is not realistic to think that they can roll flawlessly day in and day out on every roll but they should be able to do it consistany when in condition. condition plays in to a huge degree , in other words hold them back from flying for a while and the qaulity can get real shabby.
Some birds just can't do it right no matter what though.
Obviously if the kit changes direction before the bird exits the roll he can look a tad confused, once a team of birds become a team though it is like they can sence where the core of the team is at all times though.
A good example is when you move a bunch of birds around the breaks look "confused" that is because they are and at that time they are just a kit of birds and have not developed into a team.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Nov 12, 2005 1:54 PM
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Ballrollers
184 posts
Nov 12, 2005
3:40 PM
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Kenny, I asked the same thing last year. It depends on the judge. Some will score it, some won't. Clay Hoyle also posted about another scenario in which the wind can cause a bird to rotate as it descends in the spin, ultimately coming out in a different direction (maybe not 180 degrees from or in the opposite the direction from the direction it started.) Same comments from veteran flyers and judges; some say its a fault and won't score it. Some say it's ok and will score it. Now do you see why I have also been harping on the need for a more accurately defined performance standard? However, many flyers seem to be content with the variation and inconsistency created by a system that establishes a standard that may be different from fly to fly based on the personal standard of the judges. YITS Cliff
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Agent526
3 posts
Nov 14, 2005
8:56 PM
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In my opinion it's a fault. For the most part when a birds comes out facing the wrong way your going to have a out bird whether it switch wings or not. I presonally would never breed from a bird of that calibur.
Steve
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
571 posts
Nov 15, 2005
3:29 AM
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Steve.The bird is not an out bird if it is returning to the kit after a roll.David
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J_Star
112 posts
Nov 15, 2005
6:47 AM
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I don't see it a fault if the bird spin ballbearing smooth, and come out of it smooth and back to the kit like a sling shot. If it is considered a fault, then we are asking too much from our birds and making things extra challenging to ourselves.
Best of Luck...
Jay
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motherlodelofts
493 posts
Nov 15, 2005
7:52 AM
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It is simple , if a bird comes out backwards "or" wingswitches during the roll the majority of the time it is nothing short of a cull.
No it is not asking too much for them to do it properly and what you accept is what will show in your birds , if poor qaulity birds that can't come out correctly are accepted as acceptable than you will fly and breed poor qaulity birds , a roll is not complete until the end and it "must" end correctly or nothing up to that point matters.
It never amazes me the slightest of details that the parents will pass off in the young also and that includes how the finish the roll.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Nov 15, 2005 7:54 AM
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dave
40 posts
Nov 15, 2005
8:28 AM
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No matter how smooth the roll was, if the bird comes out wrong then that roll didn't count. Can a bird be perfect 100% of the time? No. But it has to consistently show that it can get it right the majority of the time. I was the score keeper when the finals judge was here for two guys in our area and he wouldn't score any of those rolls. In Pensom's book, he showed a drawing showing that a bird should roll in one direction and come out the same direction. It didn't say go the other way.
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motherlodelofts
497 posts
Nov 19, 2005
6:31 AM
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Dave to answer your question on whether such birds be should be scored , that answer is "NO" , there are some judges that will though but then they will score anything rolling.
The guy leading the 11 bird right now told me of a Y/B in his team that was doing the same and the judge told him he wouldnt score such a bird , he told me "I knew better than to have that bird in the team but there are times that it come's out correctly " the judge got his respect by "not" scoreing that bird.
A couple years ago I had some losses out of my A team prior to the finals , I had three sibblings that rolled decent but all three would do this super quik short loop at the end of the roll to straighten back out facing the kit after coming out backwards .
I took a gamble that the judge wasn't good enough to catch it so I used these three as fill birds , normaly I would never use such birds in my A team as coming out of the roll correctly is a pet peeve of mine but I took the gamble anyway.
The judge was John Wiens a world class flyer so I should have known better.
Yep he popped me on it at at the end of the fly told me that I lost several breaks due to a "few" got funny coming out of the roll , my only thought Was
"I got busted" LOL , those birds were culled after the fly as they should have been.
Dave good judges will never score such birds and if there ever come's a day that judges are forced to score such birds that don't come out of the roll correctly and facing the right direction then we are on a slipery slope of culls being able to dominate the day , if this happens than competition will be detrimental to the breed.
This is the rule , Integrity : "a judge shall NOT score any bird that does not meet his standard for adequate qaulity"
I am hearing rumor that the judge is being accussed of not judging by the rules for not scoreing this cull , the rules allow the judge to "NOT" score such a bird.
There is a lot more to building a qaulity team than throwing any ol' bird rolling any ol' way .
My opinion was that this judge has done a good job of seperating the spinners that are doing it correctly from the garbage , by him not scoreing such a bird is "proof" of that.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Nov 19, 2005 8:10 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
577 posts
Nov 19, 2005
8:08 AM
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Scott.Then why not get rid of all the other rules and just use the rule that allows the Judge to score what pleases him?I agree.All judges should be tough and the old rules stated what would not score.Then they went and changed the rules for whatever reason.We talked about these New rules when they were being voted on.If I remember right you said you were against them?
Why was there so much confusion as to the New rules.Were they changed or are they the same as before?Talking only about the 11 bird fly.I am still trying to get familiar with the W/C rules.LOL. They seem to be pretty simple.Why can't all the Major flys go by the same rules.It would make it a lot simplier I would think.I hope this don,t sound like we are trying to get things stirred up again.Not my intention anyway.David
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motherlodelofts
498 posts
Nov 19, 2005
8:22 AM
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Dave it all comes down to the judge , some judge by a low or no standard and some judge by a higher standard.
As for the 11 bird rule, I never read it all the way down to rule 10 , thank goodness that is there !!
(Not sure if it was there in the old rule though, I don't think so but I'm looking for the old rules)
Rules cannot "ever" be so water tight that the judge can be accused of not judging by the rules where of what should and should not be scored.
But I do think that a suggested standard would help and that is exactly what the 11 bird standard does , but in the end it comes down to the judge and what he deems is his "min" standard.
Dave it takes work building a first class team and it isn't done by useing such birds no matter what a judge will or will not score.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Nov 19, 2005 10:07 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
578 posts
Nov 19, 2005
10:07 AM
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Scott.You said:Dave it all comes down to the judge , some judge by a low or no standard and some judge by a higher standard.
So when does the rules come into play? All I want to know is weather the New Rules can be interpeted to allow judges to judge the Axle Rollers and the ones that come out wrong but head right back to the kit compared to the old rules.Lord knows we all raise this kind of roller and we all fly this kind of roller from time to time.All of us are not going to cull this type unless we have enough excellent rollers to makeup the kit.There must be a lot of this type flying in the competitions every year right?
So what is the proper steps to take to have NBRC amend the rules to say that Axle Rollers and rollers not facing the Kit after rolling will not be scored?The old rules stated this.No questions needed to be asked.They just would not score.I think this is why some judges score them now.The rules were condensed to allow a judge to do so.I was told when the New rules passed that this type roller could now be scored and this is why there was so much confusion when it was being voted on.Correct me if I am wrong.
I know you never flew the 11 bird fly but you are pretty much up on this competition stuff.LOL.I love the 11 bird fly and will continue to fly it no matter what the rules say.As for being a Judge I would never attempt it.But when I read a set of rules I at least should be able to understand what they say without any hidden meanings.I think if everyone knew up front what would and wouldn't be scored you would see more quality kits flown.David
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Shaun
206 posts
Nov 19, 2005
10:15 AM
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My 12 year old played football today (do you lot call it soccer?). I considered him pretty handy until he got into the league he's in now. They're all the same age, but some of the teams my laddy comes up against are so much better. It's heartbreaking to watch your kid struggling against these boys but, at the same time, you admire the opposition in what they've managed to achieve - same age, same rules - and it's not like they're freaks of nature. They're just better.
When you observe the standard - in whatever field - if you really are committed to that standard, you learn that there's no earthly point in accepting second best. That standard is there for all to aim for and to hold onto.
Scott, Dave Moselely said I should be patient in waiting for his four youngsters coming into the roll. Well, I've waited a month now - how patient do I have to be? Anyhow, today one of those babes, suddenly dropped the most beautitiful of tight rolls. I winced as it just clipped the top of the trees - but it snapped out of it just in time. It came out of the roll facing the right way and rejoined the kit in a jiffy. It's only 3 months old - really ugly little bugger - but it brought a huge smile to my face.
Shaun
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motherlodelofts
500 posts
Nov 19, 2005
11:18 AM
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Scott.You said:Dave it all comes down to the judge , some judge by a low or no standard and some judge by a higher standard.
So when does the rules come into play?
(Dave I am assuming that you mean the standard that is within the rule's all of which can and should leave what can or cannot be scored open ended which is why in rule ten it is ultmatly left in the judges lap where it needs to be)
All I want to know is weather the New Rules can be interpeted to allow judges to judge the Axle Rollers and the ones that come out wrong but head right back to the kit compared to the old rules.
( it depends on the judge Dave , if you want them scored than choose a poor judge for your regionals , usually though the finals judge will clean the mess up though)
Lord knows we all raise this kind of roller and we all fly this kind of roller from time to time.
(yes Dave I will breed these type of birds also but these are culled , there are "few" that I know that consider such birds anything but culls and you will not find such birds in the truelly good teams , only poor judges will score such birds)
All of us are not going to cull this type unless we have enough excellent rollers to makeup the kit.
(most that I know will cull such a bird because they are useless , a nice rolling stiff has far more value than a bird that can't do it right , if they can't do it right there is nothing good about them and they are nothing but an eye sore)
There must be a lot of this type flying in the competitions every year right?
(yep , look on the bottom of the score sheets when a good judge is the judge)
So what is the proper steps to take to have NBRC amend the rules to say that Axle Rollers and rollers not facing the Kit after rolling will not be scored?
(Not sure there is a way with the NBRC , but it would have to be worded something like "must score" or there is a hole to "not" score it and the "integrity" rule would have to be eliminated.
My money says that it will get far to much resistance to happen as it would be detrimental to the breed , if it did ever happen my flying days with the NBRC would be over as would many others, forceing judges to score culls is totaly unacceptable )
The old rules stated this.No questions needed to be asked.They just would not score.I think this is why some judges score them now.
(no Dave , judges didn't change what they will or will not score , again it is open ended and rule ten puts it in thier lap where it has to be.)
The rules were condensed to allow a judge to do so.I was told when the New rules passed that this type roller could now be scored and this is why there was so much confusion when it was being voted on.Correct me if I am wrong.
( Dave I don't believe that the old rule had " the judge must NOT score what does not meet his standard for qaulity" this is what you will find written in the 20 bird of both the W/C and NBRC , I never read down that far on the new 11 bird rule and it sure makes me feel better about it now )
I know you never flew the 11 bird fly but you are pretty much up on this competition stuff.LOL.I love the 11 bird fly and will continue to fly it no matter what the rules say.As for being a Judge I would never attempt it.But when I read a set of rules I at least should be able to understand what they say without any hidden meanings.
(what hidden meanings ? Dave you are new to the sport and you come from an area where you have no guidence.
To climb up the ladder you have to learn what is acceptable and what isn't , wingswitchers, axel rollers, birds that come out of the roll funny including backwards are not acceptable and it doesn't matter if you standing under a kit here or in England, a good bird is the same here as it is there and the same holds true for a cull.
Dave what you are learning here will only "help" you breed and fly better birds , but it will also shd a realistic light on percentages of truelly good birds bred.
Monty Nieble stated that it took him about three years to build a "good" team of birds if he lost his best.
I find this to be very accurate , truelly good birds aren't bred in bunches)
I think if everyone knew up front what would and wouldn't be scored you would see more quality kits flown.David
( most of us do as we know the reputations of most that judge , it still doesn't change what we do as such birds as we are discussing are just plain garbage and are unacceptable regardless, they are nothing but an eye sore and are an embarasment if they are in the kit and shouldn't be in the team even if a "poor" judge will score them, it isn't only the judge that we want to impress , around here and most areas you will most always have some top notch rollermen that know what they are looking at standing in your backyard also)
Dave none of this that I wrote here is to slam you , my intent is that you can learn something here on what it takes to field a "good" team of birds , it is not an easy task and as you have learned not only does it take birds working but they "must" be good birds or you will go nowhere except by the poorest of judges.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Nov 19, 2005 12:09 PM
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birdman
85 posts
Nov 19, 2005
12:52 PM
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Scott,
That was an excellent post! The bottom line is that you must breed and fly quality birds and shouldn't compromise when it comes to selecting birds for the competition kit. Yes, we all breed and fly those birds that come out facing wrong, axel wing, etc... but experienced guys know better than to put any of those types in a kit. Experience is the best teacher.
Russ
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
579 posts
Nov 19, 2005
1:46 PM
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Scott.Thanks for your response.But you lost me on this part.
So what is the proper steps to take to have NBRC amend the rules to say that Axle Rollers and rollers not facing the Kit after rolling will not be scored?
(Not sure there is a way with the NBRC , but it would have to be worded something like "must score" or there is a hole to "not" score it and the "integrity" rule would have to be eliminated.
My money says that it will get far to much resistance to happen as it would be detrimental to the breed , if it did ever happen my flying days with the NBRC would be over as would many others, forceing judges to score culls is totaly unacceptable )
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motherlodelofts
501 posts
Nov 19, 2005
2:54 PM
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Sorry Dave I mis-read it , I don't have an answer for you .
Don't put them in your team and it will be a mute point though.
Scott
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
580 posts
Nov 19, 2005
4:00 PM
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Scott.I am just going to keep them in a kit by themselves.The judge will never know the difference.LOL. Just Jokin. David
P.S. Actually this roller in question flew today and never came out facing the wrong way the full 20 minutes.It is thru the moult so maybe that helped.
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