BR Rollers
22 posts
Nov 11, 2005
10:31 PM
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Hey guy's I am in need of a little help here. I have been having a problem for a few weeks now and don't know what it is exactly or how to fix it.
It started with one Blue bar cock only. He was acting like he was choking on something. His neck was arched in the back and his beak was pulled into his crop area. It seemed to happen right after feeding them. At that time I was feeding pellets and thought he may have been choking on them. I switched my feed to pigeon mix and didn't see it happen again after that. Today I noticed a different bird doing the same thing. I thought he was choking to death on something. I looked down his throat and it looked normal. I didnt see anything abnormal in his mouth either. Both of these birds felt fine in the hand as well, no going light problems.
While this is going on the birds don't do anything for a few minutes except have this spasm. After this stops they sit looking like they just escaped death. The next day they act almost like nothing happened but are still not all the way back to thenselves.
What could this be and what kind of remedy or meds will help?
Thanks
Ronnie
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upcd
64 posts
Nov 12, 2005
1:56 AM
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Hello, Rollers do have small throats. Seeds and pellets need to be small and high quaility. Smell the mix. Does it smell fresh or moldy? Also what type of ground cover do you have? Some birds have eaten corn cob and choaked to death. Gald the birds are doing better. But if these birds trouble you take them away from the flock and watch them. Keep us posted.
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J_Star
106 posts
Nov 12, 2005
5:21 AM
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BR,
Without knowing your setup or the hygiene of your loft, try to put your birds on antibiotic for a week. This way if they have some kind of bacteria (Canker) will be taken care of. If sickness is not the issue, maybe that your bird are very hungry at feed time and gobble up the grains with speed that they don't allow themselves to breath. Try giving them 3/4 of their ration and wait until they drink water then give them the other 1/4 of ration. This will allow them to settle their crop before shoving more in it.
Other thing that you might to think about is a possible upper respiratory issue if the loft is very dusty. If that is the case then double up on supplements that have vitamin A. There are medications for that also that you might want to use.
Best of luck.
Jay
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
405 posts
Nov 12, 2005
5:22 AM
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Hello Ronnie, I agree with upcd. Check the feed and see if it is moldy smelling. You might even try just replacing the old bag regardless with a completely new one and see if you get the same problem. (it's just an expense of a few dollars for the health of your birds)
Another thought that comes to mind is that if these birds came in from flying, they may have still had a little grain in thier crop from the previous feeding and are reacting to the effects of rolling with a not-so-empty crop and now the new food being eaten is causing the problem.
Also, consider removing the 2 birds that choked and give them some Sulmet in water. It is an anti-bacterial. Be sure to follow directions.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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BR Rollers
23 posts
Nov 12, 2005
3:24 PM
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Thanks guys for your help and ideas. I have them in a 4x4 pen off the ground with a wire floor.
I got these birds as youngsters for next years breeding start up. The pen is clean and there is no chance of dust.As far as feed goes, when This all started I was feeding pellets. Right after it started I bought some pigeon mix feed and it is very clean high quality stuff.
I havent flown these guys at all. They were squeakers when I got them and I am raising them up to breed this season.
I can't believe this is happening just a few short months away from breeding season.
Today I went out to feed and watch them for a while. The sick cock is still acting the same but is a little worse then yesterday. The same symtoms though. He walks around on the floor with his head cocked down like his neck is broken. One good thing I noticed is he was very hungry. He was standing in the feed tray picking up pea's between his feet. I also noticed the other cock that was having these same symtoms a while and got better is now having some trouble again. He couldn't stand up on the perch. He flew up and tried to stand up but had to sit for a while. He finally did stand up but he was in distress...I could see it. I went and got some Sulmet ...Same thing I use on my chickens and gave them this today. They had already had fresh water given to them earlier in the day so they didn't drink it. I forced feed the 2 birds some of this medicated water right before dark. I will be praying tonight for a change for the good in the morning.
Ronnie
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birdman
80 posts
Nov 12, 2005
3:37 PM
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Ronnie,
Did you check their throats for canker? Also, how do the droppings look? Watery? The way you describe the necks sounds like symptoms of a possible paratyphoid or PMV infection. Are the necks twisted?
Russ
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BR Rollers
24 posts
Nov 12, 2005
3:43 PM
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Yes this birds neck is hanging down like its broken and it is twisted now that I think about it. Do you know what this is and what I need to do to fix it? Will my other birds need treatment as well?
Thanks!
Ronnie
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BR Rollers
25 posts
Nov 12, 2005
3:43 PM
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Yes this birds neck is hanging down like its broken and it is twisted now that I think about it. Do you know what this is and what I need to do to fix it? Will my other birds need treatment as well?
Thanks!
Ronnie
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BR Rollers
26 posts
Nov 12, 2005
3:45 PM
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I did look down there throats and in there mouths. No canker or abnormalties. The floor is wire so I didn't pay attention to the droppings.
Ronnie
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Spud
4 posts
Nov 12, 2005
4:01 PM
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Boy, this sounds like paratyphoid to me.
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BR Rollers
27 posts
Nov 12, 2005
4:08 PM
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Spud. It seems like veryone knows what I have here, but what I need to know is how bad is this? Am I going to have to kill off everything and burn down everything and start over? Or can I recoup the problem and count my losses and go on? I could sure use some advise on this.
Thanks.
Ronnie
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birdman
81 posts
Nov 12, 2005
4:36 PM
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Ronnie,
I agree with Spud. It sounds like it could be paratyphoid. Do you have rats or mice around your loft or where you store your feed?
Russ
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Spud
5 posts
Nov 12, 2005
5:24 PM
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Ronnie, I've been looking through my books and I can't find what I've read on paratyphoid. It seems to me it turns twists their necks. I think you just have to isolate them, clean eveything and let it run its course. I think there is something that may help but I can't remembe what it is. Sorry I can't be of more help. Let me make some calls and I'll try to get some answers.
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Spud
6 posts
Nov 12, 2005
5:41 PM
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Ok, here's what I've found out. Twisted neck is a classic symptom of Paratyphod. (There is strain of pmv that can also do that, but unlikely). The advice I was given is to give antibotics, vaccinate the birds that aren't sick. Isolate the sick ones and clean everything up good. The birds that have it will always carry it, and you can carry it on your shoes to other lofts so isolate yourself as well. The point is to try and cut your losses. Sorry Ronnie, I know this has to hurt.
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
259 posts
Nov 12, 2005
7:32 PM
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Twisted necks and listless behavior are one of two things, one being parathyphoid as already discussed, and the other being PMV. Without seeing the birds first hand, my recommendation is to place a piece of wood or cardboard in the pen. Take out the birds showing the signs you described and place them into solitary pens with solid bottoms or trays underneath. Make sure the area you contain them in is warm. Parathyphoid dropping will be runny like diarrhea and have a pungent odor. PMV dropping will usually be clear like water. It is said that PMV infected birds usually consume large amounts of water so keep an eye on that.
PMV infected birds will sometimes walk or scoot backwards.
PMV is viral.
Lets assume for a moment that you feel your birds do have PMV. If your birds have PMV, isolate every bird in that pen from the rest of your birds. At this point you will have already removed the ones showing signs. Vaccinating them is of no use at this point. You can try to vaccinate the others in that pen if you like, but chances are some or all of them might have already contacted it and the virus is just beginning it's saga. Thus, the vaccination will do no good for them either and often actually kill them sooner. But it will help to protect the rest of the birds on your property that are not in these pens. These statements are based on the assumption of PMV, and not stating that they in fact have it. Just something to keep in mind if they do.
If their droppings appear to be more like that of parathyphoid, treat them with Baytril or Cephalexin. There are several good treatments available but I have found these two to be very effective if caught in a reasonable amount of time. Baytril tablets are the best and Baytril is said to be the only medicine that will actually cure the "carrier" state. Cephalexin is a very strong anti-biotic and will in some cases actually work better for parathyphoid, that depending upon the particular strain. Make sure and run them through it, including the non-ill showing birds in the pen, for a full two weeks. Clean out the pen they were in very good and disinfect with Nolvassan or another over the counter animal safe disinfectant. Do not use bleach. Bleach breaks down and become alkaline which parathyphoid bacteria thrives in. You might kill the surface bacteria, but once the infect bird craps, out comes more onto the fresh alkaline environment.
Once the treatment period is over, they should begin to look a little better. Give them vitamins for two or three days followed by apple cider vinegar in their water for few days.
It should also be noted that usually birds with physical abnormalities from paratyphoid such as twisting necks will not be corrected once healed. The twisting is nuerological damage while often the birds that get "lumps" under their wings or in the hip joints also loose a lot of the use of that limb even though they are perfectly healthy afterwards.
Brian.
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upcd
65 posts
Nov 12, 2005
10:44 PM
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PMV Serviors should be adopted out to Pigeon Rehabors. We have one here in Lake Forest, Ca. Her name is Terry She is on Pigeon talk biz. Also Pgeon 911. They can be pets. But they can never be flock members again. It is important to give your pigeon PMV shots. Can get them At JEDDS of FOYS. 1st shot, then boost a month later, then repeat every year. Please vaccinate all uninfected birds yesterday. New birds are not allowed into flock until 6 weeks later with premeds are done and vaccinations complete.
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upcd
66 posts
Nov 12, 2005
10:47 PM
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Parathyriod may require a month of treatment. Treat flock and don't breed until these problems a finshed.
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big al
210 posts
Nov 13, 2005
1:53 AM
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Hey Brian, upcd!!
Great info!
Question... Do you advise vaccinating birds in fine health as a precautionary step?
If so, vaccinate for what, with what, at what age and how often?
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See you in the roll!
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
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motherlodelofts
485 posts
Nov 13, 2005
9:50 AM
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Al all my birds are vaccinated for PMV and last year I started vaccinating for paratyphoid.
And I have pretty much a closed loft to boot , I also use cider viniger and a powder loft dressing that is acidic , Apple cider viniger is also acidic and make the droppings acidic , an acidic envirement is a heathy envirement.
There are just to many lofts that bite the big one by having an epidemic blow through , one was a buddy in Mass. he said Scott I even had the vaccine but just kept putting it off , PMV blew through devistating fly teams that he had spent years building and knocked off some stock birds. Needless to say such things are devistating as years of work are lost.
That is only one example of more than a few of people that I know.
All of this can be prevented for very little money and a few hrs.
I vaccinate by my myself and I find it easier than useing help , if you havnt done it "do it"
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Nov 13, 2005 9:52 AM
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fhtfire
252 posts
Nov 13, 2005
10:11 AM
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I vaccinate yearly for PMV. Give them a shot in there little necks. It is a good thing to do and it does not take that long to do. I thinkk it took about an hour for Scott and I to do my birds last year. I think we did about 60 birds in that amount of time. The hardest part is making sure you did not miss a bird. It really helps to have two people...but it can be done with one. I have me son help me...he holds...I give the shot...while I am marking the records...he puts the bird in a veiwing cage unitl all the birds in the kit are done...then we move the birds from the veiwing cage back to the kit box and then start all over again. The breeders are a little easier..I just start at one Nesting box..do the pair..then put a red dot on the box with a sharpie..to let me know that the pair in that box are done. Don't forget to really squirt a good amount of Alcohol on the neck before the shot. And DO NOT put a needle you used on the birds back into the bottle of vaccine. Keep a clean needle in the vaccine...just unscrew the needle from the syringe..fill it with the needle in the bottle..then unscrew the syringe and put the used needle back on and then give it a squirt with Alchohol. I prefer..Jack Daniels..LOL!!!!
rock and ROLL
Paul Fullerton
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J_Star
108 posts
Nov 13, 2005
10:24 AM
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What is the cause of those two deceases? Just wondering..
Jay
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motherlodelofts
486 posts
Nov 13, 2005
11:24 AM
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Jay I think that it is you that brings up mice quite a bit and no doubt they can be a major culprit , also moisture , there are many other things also that can play in.
This year for some reason rodents just exploded population wise and I have been fighting mice hard in the loft, I don't leave food out and all the feed is stored in garbage cans with a tight lid , holes are drilled so that feed can "air".
Scott
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
262 posts
Nov 13, 2005
6:43 PM
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Al, healthy birds are the only birds you want to vaccinate. A bird that is ill already has a taxed immune system, therefore vaccinating it will be more of a burden on the bird than an aid.
Brian.
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big al
212 posts
Nov 14, 2005
12:52 AM
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Brian,
I've been working hard the last couple of years getting this family going. I never medicate my birds unless needed which is rare, but vaccinating is another ball game.
A loss like that would be devastating.
Lets talk some more about this. I'll call you.
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See you in the roll!
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
Last Edited by big al on Nov 14, 2005 12:56 AM
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upcd
67 posts
Nov 14, 2005
1:19 AM
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Causes of diseases: By chance your birds mix with feral birds. Pigeons flies and any blood sucking parasite. Nothing like it. I take a bite of a sick bird and then I bite a health bird and there you go. Fecal matter of a sick bird in a feed or water container and everybody is now infected. A nest where sick babies have died. Dirty coop. Mice running thru the feed before it is bagged. Visit someone loft or feed shop or bird show. Buying new birds without Quantinting for 6 weeks. Buying unvaccitaned birds. Not washing hands and changing clothes and shoes after going into coops.
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J_Star
109 posts
Nov 14, 2005
4:44 AM
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Scott, I knew mice are a big culprit, but wanted to know if there were other reasons. I agree with you mice population was a big problem this year. I had to fight them myself. This is why I decided to have a solid floor in my loft when I was building it.
I handled them by poison from the outside of the loft. This poison is like a stick about 1’’ square by 2’’ long with a hole in the center. The name is ‘Tom Cat by 3M’. I put a 3’’ screw through it and screw it in the center of a board 1’ square (plywood). I cut two 2x4 pieces of wood about 12’’ long each, and screw them to the edges of the board on the oposit side of each other. The poison will be concealed underneath the board and surrounded by the 2x4s so no animals or birds could eat it other than the mice. I had some roofing shingles around; therefore, I covered the top of the plywood with it to protect the wood from the rain. I built about 5 or 6 and positioned them in the areas around the loft and the bushes in my backyard. Once a week I go around with a screwdriver drill, unscrew the screw and fill it up again. I thought I had couple of mice around, but was I wrong! For each mice you see, there are 10 you don’t see. I don’t have mice around anymore, but the poison is still around to keep them contained.
Jay
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BR Rollers
28 posts
Nov 14, 2005
9:23 PM
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Hello guy's. I just wanted to thank everyone who helped me with this lesson on pigeon health. Not only did I learn some great information but so did others.
An update on my 2 sick birds. I went out this morning and both birds were doing just fine! One you could never tell he had a problem. The other was normal acting but he wasn't quite himself all the way. I gave them Sulmet for 2 days and today I started them on antibiotics. After a few days of this I plan on giving them some vitamins and sups.
I am also getting some vaccines on order first thing in the morning. I havent lost anything as of now but the shock of it all was overwhelming. I am not going to take any chances of a repeat of this again. I still am not sure what kind of sickness I had or what caused it but my guess is the possibility of mice is a good one. I have seen mice in my shed where I store my feed. I sometimes leave the lid off my plastic trash can I keep my feed in.
I didnt know this could cause a problem. This will never happen again. Live and learn!
Thanks again guys for your help.
Ronnie
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J_Star
113 posts
Nov 15, 2005
6:54 AM
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BR,
FYI..if you don't give the birds the shot in the right place and the right way, you could kill them. So, I advice you to study carefully how to give the shots first b4 trying it.
Keep the mice out of your loft, feed and anywhere around the loft. Their droppings are deadly to pigeons. If they contaminate the feed or the water, then kiss your birds goodbye.
Jay
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