upcd
68 posts
Nov 14, 2005
1:24 AM
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Do roller people ever sell unprooven baby rollers? For more or less $? Any warranty?
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fhtfire
253 posts
Nov 14, 2005
7:45 AM
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Yes,
People sell unproven baby rollers. If you consider a squeeker a baby...and I do consider a squeeker a baby. The prices range from 10.00-100.00 a bird...based of course on who is the seller and if the buyer is willing to pay that much. Squeekers are usually cheaper because they are unproven. But sometimes you want some real tight bloodline and you may pay a little more...just to have the gene pool. Some pay more becuase the young birds may come from a pair of birds that were in a W/C winning team. I think the price of a roller...really depends on when you catch a fancier in a good mood....or if the birds are from good stock. Some fanciers will not sell there birds...sometimes you get some free ones. I have never heard of a warranty on a squeeker. I think that is why the price is a little cheaper on squeekers....because you are kind of gambling. I know that some fanciers will replace a bird that is sold to you if it arrives sick or dead....of course claiming a bird died a year later and you want another for free...most fanciers will tell you to pound sand.
proven kit birds will go for more then squeekers...because now you have the time to train and feed involved as well as knowng the birds worth on the perch and on the team.
A proven pair of breeders can go for thousands of dollars...some have no price tag...because the fancier will never sell them. I think the price depends on timing, sweet talking, cathcing the fancier in a good mood and showing that you are very interested in the birds.
\rock and ROLL
Paul
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
413 posts
Nov 14, 2005
7:51 AM
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Hey upcd, yes, breeders do sell unproven young birds from famous and not so famous roller familys all the time. When you buy an "unproven" bird from a reputable breeder, you are essentially acquiring the gene pool of that family that has been developed through trial and error over many years.
It is now the buyers responsibility to work with the birds in such a way as to reproduce the favorable traits and minimize the unfavorable ones.
As with any family, this is the challenge that a buyer has to take on. I am of the opinion that it is the ability (responsibility) of the buyer to pull out of the family what is already there. For some this could take years for others a season or two.
The breeder trains the rollers, the rollers don't train the breeder. He has to understand the loft and performance characteristics of the family and how his training, breeder selection and management will impact the set of family genes in order to reach his ideal of the perfect roller.
Warranty? Yes, if one arrives sick or dead, a new one goes out.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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motherlodelofts
490 posts
Nov 14, 2005
8:35 AM
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Tony this statement couldn't be any truer ,
( I am of the opinion that it is the ability (responsibility) of the buyer to pull out of the family what is already there. For some this could take years for others a season or two.)
I think that so many think that all you have to do is aquire some birds from so and so and then they are on easy street , the fact is that is that is when the real work begins which also makes it the most challanging.
Scott
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Shaun
203 posts
Nov 14, 2005
11:54 AM
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I think that rollers are a fine example of the simple laws of supply and demand. Assuming we're talking about an established supplier, I think we would all agree that a proven breeding pair will generally be the most desirable and costly option. The next most expensive will be birds which have been tested in the air - rollers which the buyer can see flying before buying. They're worthy of a comp kit - but they've not yet been 'promoted' to the breeding loft. Finally, at the bottom end of the cost equation, we have the untested squeakers, with the fine pedigree. They will cost a lot less, simply because only a proportion of them will make the grade. The breeder won't worry about letting them go because they're an unknown quantity - so, it's then up to the buyer to separate the wheat from the chaff.
By way of a cost example, from my limited experience (get your calculators out and equate roughly 1.75 US dollars to the English pound), a typical squeaker from an established loft in the UK will be £25-30. Now, be prepared to quadruple that if the bird has been flown out and is worthy of a comp kit. But, even if you're prepared to pay that, they're still quite rare as, once proven, the flyers, understandably, will want to keep them for themselves, as part of their own kits. Hence, for many purchasers, the only viable option is the untested squeakers.
I should also add that in the UK, there are some flyers who do breed squeaker kits to sell. However, most only breed enough for themselves, with little to spare for anyone else - regardless of how many potential buyers there might be. So, obtaining good rollers is rarely easy.
What about you lot in the US?
Shaun
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fhtfire
254 posts
Nov 14, 2005
5:29 PM
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Shaun,
You pretty much nailed that one on the head. You are right about not getting rid of birds that are proven in the air. I am shipping out 4 proven kit birds tomorrow. I usually would not do that because...I myself run a pretty tight ship and usually do not have birds to spare. This year was a pretty good year...So I had some extra birds to spare. I WILL NOT take any more birds out of my A and B teams this year. I have just enough to work with to put a pretty good team together for the W/C. This guy got a bargain for proven kit birds....again..I have enough good birds from a very good breeding season. Heck, I may kick myself in the butt later....but I know that helping someone out....like so many helped me when I was down and out...you know...just like the movie...pay it forward....now I am even..LOL!!!! So I do not owe anybody...LOL! Just kidding.
But it is the same in the US....nobody is going to give up there best birds...but sometimes you catch somebody at the right time!!!!
rock and ROLL
Paul FUllerton
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Velo99
164 posts
Nov 14, 2005
7:18 PM
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My two cents briefly,
Most of the BEST breeders,a 1:4 ratio of good birds to marginal or cull birds. So when you buy a kit of twenty squeaks don`t expect them all to be class A birds. The bloodline might be class A but the squeaks might all not be. No one is out to rip you off. They are just squeaks.
Guys , correct me if I am wrong. Your chances may go up with the breeder picking the kit,but I think I am close.
yits
V99
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Shaun
204 posts
Nov 15, 2005
12:35 AM
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Certainly, I was under no illusions as to the ratio of good birds from a kit of 20. I've been warned to expect to do a lot of culling. When selling birds around six weeks old, there's nothing much the breeder can do, other than say all youngsters have been bred from his own stock and that nothing is in the stock loft which hasn't proved itself.
It's the guy's reputation and line of birds you're paying for, but with absolutely no guarantees as to the number of good birds you'll ultimately end up with. But, it just takes a couple of crackers and it might all be worth it in the end.
I would happily have paid much more for fewer birds but them having been proven in the air, than boatloads of untested squeakers, which have to be looked after for ages to get them going in order to breed. It is a long haul, but it brings us back to the point that there aren't many who will let good birds go. As Paul illustrates, it's just the odd window of opportunity, which might come someone's way.
Shaun
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
572 posts
Nov 15, 2005
3:48 AM
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I sell several kits of young birds each year.When someone buys a kit of young birds (Squeaks)they are getting the chance to get a Champion from that kit just as I could.They also will get some bad ones too.
As Shaun said all you can be sure of is that they are from the same Breeders that I am raising my young from to fly for myself.I usually sell every other round or the last couple of rounds according to what are spoken for.
This year the Shipping Crisis really messed me up and I wound up having to fly out a couple of extra kits that I normally wouldn,t.Now I am starting to put together some pairs for next year and already have to many birds.LOL.
Doc says I have to slow down and here I am thinking about building another kitbox.David
P.S. Normally by now I have already sold my #1 & #2 Kits but since I am into competing I will be keeping these 2 kits.Question is do you fellows keep your Comp teams in their kitbox for the Winter or do you have a Loft you keep them in?
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J_Star
110 posts
Nov 15, 2005
4:56 AM
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As we all know, when a long established breeder have squeakers to sell, usually his birds are for the most part are good birds. After a long time of inbreeding, the breeder should have about 70% success rate and uniformity in his loft. For this, 7 out of 10 should be average and above average birds and occasionally might have a smoker. If the smoker is a cock, then you really are in business.
When I started, I bought a kit of 10 from an established and respectable breeder. I did not know him and his reputation at the time. So the 10 were just to test out and if they don’t work out, my loses would be minimal. That summer, I flew them all summer long, at the end of the summer I was happy about the percentage of good birds and most of them were cocks (lucky me). So I called him back and got another 10. Now I have, at least, six pairs that, what I call, worth breeding and protecting at any cost.
The advice that I would give to any newbie is to select that special cock and inbreed toward him to make lots of him. I really recommend to anybody who wants to listen is to start with one excellent cock and three good hens to start, and breed back the best daughters to the foundation cock and continue that until you have uniformity in your loft. In time and step by step, you will have an exceptional family that you would not want to give any of it up.
You can buy a kit of squeakers and select out that foundation cock and the hens or just buy them, already proven right out form the breeder. Whatever the cost is, when you look back, you would realize it was worth it and the rest will be history.
Jay
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Shaun
205 posts
Nov 15, 2005
12:11 PM
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David, I would say that George Mason is doing a similar thing to you - you raise a kit for yourself, then sell another to someone else. If you didn't do this, you would end up with far too many young birds - or you would have to split the breeders up very quickly.
Jay, your thing about finding - if you're lucky - that superb cock and hopefully a few hens, is definitely the main reason for the kit of squeaks. There are no guarantees, but the law of averages suggests that with 20 or so youngsters to play with, you should ultimately see some decent results with which to forward your own breeding program. Watch this space and I'll tell you how I get on...
Shaun
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Velo99
167 posts
Nov 15, 2005
1:39 PM
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I have a recruit and he doesn`t even know it. I made a few tee shirts with my logo on the front and a cool pic of some squeaks on the back. After he noticed the pic on the back, he inquired about the pigeons and you know the ensuing conversation since most of us are eager to talk about our birds.
Anyway he showed a bit more interest over the next few weeks so I gave him a NBRC book. A couple of days later he was amazed when speaking about what he had read.I invited him to watch the birds Saturday. He didn`t show. Allesandro came to me Monday and apologised for not coming over and assured me he would be over soon to watch them fly. When he sees them it will be all over but the building of a kitbox.
Linking this one to the breeder question is why I would like to breed some exceptional birds this year because I will be providing him with kit this summer. I would like for him to have some birds he will be happy with.
YITS
V99
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upcd
69 posts
Nov 16, 2005
11:26 PM
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Wow, Guys great response. What a wealth of imformation. Would a good mood include late hatches? Because most kits have been formed.
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
575 posts
Nov 17, 2005
2:37 AM
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UPCD. Very good mood.LOL. David
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motherlodelofts
496 posts
Nov 18, 2005
9:11 AM
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There are a few time's to snag birds from me , one is when I want to get the Y/B kits to a managable level such as I want to do now with the short days.
And then I hit a point in late Spring where I want to hone in just around the very best of the prior years breeding season and want boxes open for the new youngsters.
The culls never leave the property but when I give birds away it doesn't mean that many won't become culls.
I do not pair birds or breed birds to sell although I have knocked some youngsters off after breeding season out of my top pairs for friends or new guys.
My money says that very few "proven" birds are sold or given away , and proven breeders even less so , but then I don't consider a Y/B bird to be proven no matter how good it is at that time, it is nothing more than potential.
Scott
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upcd
75 posts
Nov 19, 2005
11:18 PM
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Alot people want breeders but don't want to pay the price. Just to prove the unproven point. A guy in Victorville bought a young kit of birds. All rolling, all boys. Now he wants a breeder hen. The price difference is freaking him out.
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