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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
How many generations
How many generations
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dmitch
24 posts
Nov 26, 2005
4:31 PM
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How many generations did it take you guys to establish a good family of spinners?
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
271 posts
Nov 26, 2005
11:10 PM
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I haven't established a family of quality spinners to meet my standards yet, but I think overall you should have a good idea of the direction you are going 3-5 generations into a program.
Brian.
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Alohazona
89 posts
Nov 27, 2005
1:52 AM
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I agree with Brian,about the 4th or 5 th generation.Half brothers and sisters,1st cousins have had my best prepotency.All depends on the birds,follow the quality roll,velocity,type,expression,depth will present its self when you least expect it....Aloha,Todd
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
417 posts
Nov 27, 2005
6:20 AM
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Here’s a thought...if it can take up to 18 to 24 months for some roller strains to come into the roll, and if it takes 4 to 5 generations to establish your own family with the traits you want, then you will have invested 8 to 10 years to develop your own family (provided you made all the right selections!)!!!
Also, how do you know if the rollers you own already have the genetic pool to deliver on your ideals?
Would you want to know before acquiring them or investing years?
How can you know? What is it worth to shave years off this scenario by acquiring birds already demonstrating the desired traits?
Is a new breeder actually creating a "new" family or merely maintaining what is already in the family/s he obtained elsewhere.
If an outcross is brought into this "family", is it now a "new" family after 8 to 10 years of selection to build on the traits that were there originally?
How does a new breeder even know what to look for?
These are rhetorical questions and any insight could be valuable to new (and not so new) breeders.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by rollerpigeon on Nov 27, 2005 6:50 AM
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dmitch
25 posts
Nov 27, 2005
7:21 AM
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Ok guys i see the road is a long one.In my family i see that some of the nestmate come in at 4 to 6 months and the other one will take much longer to come in to the roll.So do you guys keep birds around that take over a year to come in to the roll or cull them out?
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dmitch
26 posts
Nov 27, 2005
7:44 AM
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Tony you are so right most newbes that come in to the hobby buy young birds from good breeders but out of say 20 birds how many will make good breeders.
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Alohazona
90 posts
Nov 27, 2005
11:05 AM
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when looking at staying with one family or pursueing another,whether newbie or not,you have to have a clear picture of what you are looking for in the air.If birds develop early and have good roll quality as well as frequency, kitting,heart to make it back to the kit,overall a good kit bird,will these qualitys remain after 1 to 3 years of flying them out or will they stiffen or rolldown someday.Birds that develop later usually have a better style of roll,but if it is rolling once here or there,is that the performance worth waiting a year or more for.I have basically two sides to my long term project and have been blending the best from both early and late developers.More likely than not the results will be all over the place,but the birds that have the common ground between early and late,as well as holding up in their performance is what I will be selecting for.
there are definetly strains out there that are working from the moment of release to the end of their fly,is their quality? with this beginining to end workrate,Hmmmm,sure I guess there is,some days are better than othersThe bottom line .......is there are checks and balances,that have to be explored,you will know good rollers when you them,how they hold up in the long run or if you can hang on to them with overflys and predators, while being proven, is another question.i may have only answered one of the questions you asked......:-)....Aloha,Todd
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Alohazona
91 posts
Nov 27, 2005
11:19 AM
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of 20 birds,I would expect 2 or 3 pair at the most to breed from 3 rolldown/bumpers,4 stiffs,the rest marginal performers.It is very hard to get a good breeder to raise you 20 tho.....Aloha,Todd
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
272 posts
Nov 27, 2005
7:03 PM
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Here’s a thought...if it can take up to 18 to 24 months for some roller strains to come into the roll, and if it takes 4 to 5 generations to establish your own family with the traits you want, then you will have invested 8 to 10 years to develop your own family (provided you made all the right selections!)!!!
WHAT A HORRIBLE THOUGHT, HAVING TO FLY OUT BIRDS FOR ALMOST TWO YEARS TO EVEN SEE WHAT THEY MIGHT ROLL LIKE..LOL. NO THANKS!!!
I WOULD THINK THAT A PERSON SHOULD BEGIN TO SEE THE PROFITS AND PITFALLS OF THEIR SELECTIONS AT ABOUT FIVE OR SIX YEARS IN. THIS IS SEEING THE "TRUE" POTENTIAL OF THE BIRDS THEY ARE WORKING WITH.
Also, how do you know if the rollers you own already have the genetic pool to deliver on your ideals?
WELL IF "YOU" MEANS SOMEONE WITH EXPERIENCE, THEY CAN PRETTY MUCH DETERMINE IF WHAT THEY HAVE IS SOLID OR LACKING.
IF "YOU" IS A NEW FLYER, CHANCES ARE THEY HAVE TO LEARN ABOUT WHAT THEY WANT FROM THEIR BIRDS AND WHAT THEY EXPECT TO SEE IN THE AIR WELL BEFORE THEY WILL UNDERSTAND WHAT THE BIRDS THEY HAVE ARE CAPABLE OF.
Would you want to know before acquiring them or investing years?
I THINK ULTIMATELY THAT IS A GIVEN. NO ONE SEEKS TO WASTE TIME AND MONEY. NOTHING IS SET IN STONE AND NO ONE FAMILY WILL BE THE POT OF GOLD. BUT SPENDING TIME GETTING TO KNOW THE BIRDS A PERSON IS INTERESTED IN WILL DEFINITELY SAVE YEARS OF AGGRAVATION.
How can you know?
THAT IS JUST IT, YOU DON'T! ROLLERS ARE NOT AN AUTOMATED FUNCTIONING PIECE OF EQUIPMENT, SOMETHING WE HAVE GROWN USE TO IN TODAY'S SOCIETY. THE BEST SCENARIO IS TO SEEK OUT BIRDS WHICH REPRESENT THE PERFORMANCE THE PERSON WANTS TO HAVE AS WELL AS DEVELOP A SOLID UNDERSTANDING OF HOW TO MANAGE THOSE BIRDS. YOU CAN HAVE THE BEST BRED ROLLERS IN THE WORLD, BUT IF YOU DON'T HAVE A CLUE HOW TO MANAGE THEM, THEY ARE WORTHLESS. THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR TIME. YOU WILL KNOW IF THE BIRDS YOU GOT ARE WORTHY WHEN THE TIME COMES WHEN THAT PERSON IS HAPPY WITH THEIR PERFORMANCE.
What is it worth to shave years off this scenario by acquiring birds already demonstrating the desired traits?
I GUESS IT IS WORTH WHAT SOMEONE IS WILLING TO PAY...LOL.
THERE IS LITTLE DOUBT THAT SEEKING OUT BIRDS FROM A FAMILY THAT HAS WHAT YOU WANT WILL SAVE LOADS OF TIME. YOU WILL STILL HAVE TO FILTER OUT THE GARBAGE, BUT AT LEAST BOTH YOU AND THE BIRDS WILL BE ON THE SAME PAGE, SOMETHING THAT IS MORE OF A GAMBLE WITH JUST GETTING ROLLERS IN GENERAL WITH NO NOTION OF WHAT THEY ARE REALLY LIKE.
Is a new breeder actually creating a "new" family or merely maintaining what is already in the family/s he obtained elsewhere.
I THINK YOU WOULD GET VARYING ANSWERS TO THAT QUESTION. TO ME, IF YOU GET BIRDS FROM SO-N-SO, AND PAIR THOSE BIRDS UP AND ONLY BREED FROM THOSE BIRDS, YOU ARE MAINTAINING A PRE-DEVELOPED FAMILY. IN A FEW YEARS, WHEN YOU ARE FLYING BIRDS BRED FROM BIRDS YOU RAISED AND PAIRED UP, THEN I THINK IT UNDERSTANDABLE FOR SOMEONE TO CALL THEM THEIR OWN FAMILY.
If an outcross is brought into this "family", is it now a "new" family after 8 to 10 years of selection to build on the traits that were there originally?
I THINK IF SOMEONE STARTS CROSSING DIFFERENT FAMILIES, THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT THE BIRDS THEY PRODUCE ARE DEFINITELY THEIR FAMILY. IT IS AFTER ALL, THEIR MIXTURE. THIS IS GENERALLY HOW SOME OF THE MOST POPULAR FAMILIES AROUND WERE CREATED.
I DON'T THINK IT TAKES 8-10 YEARS. ONCE YOU CROSS TWO DIFFERENT FAMILIES FROM TWO DIFFERENT BREEDERS, ITS YOURS!
How does a new breeder even know what to look for?
THAT IS THE HARDEST THING TO DESCRIBE TO SOMEONE JUST GETTING STARTED. WE EACH HAVE A DIFFERENT WAY OF PRESENTING THE STEPS AND PROVIDING THE VARIABLES. THE ONLY TRIED AND TRUE METHOD THAT LENDS ITSELF TO THE MOST PRODUCTIVE MEANS OF "KNOWING WHAT TO LOOK FOR" IS FOR A NEW GUY TO GET OUT THERE AND SEE AS MANY GOOD KITS AS THEY POSSIBLY CAN AS WELL AS COMMUNICATE WITH THOSE WITH PLENTY OF SUCCESSFUL EXPERIENCE. THIS IS THE REAL DEAL WAY OF POINTING A NEW PERSON IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION, AND EVENTUALLY, IF THEY TRULY HAVE THE SPIRIT, THEY WILL BEGIN TO "KNOW" WHAT TO LOOK FOR.
ONE HAS TO REMEMBER THAT THOUGH WE ALL MIGHT BE SOMEWHAT ON THE SAME PAGE IN TERMS OF A NICE ROLLER, WE WILL BE ALL OVER THE PLACE ON OUR BREEDING, SELECTING AND MANAGING PRINCIPALS. A NEW PERSON MUST FIRST DISCOVER WHAT IS A NICE ROLLER TO THEM, THEN LEARN ABOUT HOW THE BIRDS HE IS WORKING WITH WILL PRODUCE MORE OF THEM, OR WHAT BREEDERS DO THEY SOLICT TO ACQUIRE BIRDS THAT WILL BREED THEM.
Brian.
Dmitch--you asked how long a person personally keeps birds around before culling.
If a bird isn't rolling by 10 months here, it is gone.
Last Edited by MCCORMICKLOFTS on Nov 27, 2005 7:07 PM
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merced guy
26 posts
Nov 29, 2005
12:42 PM
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Great post brian,
I believe in the addage that said, "you will not settle on the first birds that you own." man after about almost two years, I am still searching for that one roller that I really like. i swear ,I saw this roller once, at someones backyard, but it died and there is no one left. I have a desscent family now, but i don't have that ideal bird that I have seen before--Im still searching for it and when I do, Ill breed it rigtht. when it spins it has a whirling look to it, no wings showing just a spinning ball from any angle.
in the sport
thong
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Richard A.
78 posts
Nov 30, 2005
7:21 AM
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There is a definete element of pride in developing your own family of rollers. For a person that is new into rollers, it would be better for them to buy a stock that has already been developed by someone else. That would allow them to put some good birds in the air right away, and be able to enjoy them immediately.
I took quite a few years in developing my stock. I knew more or less what I wanted and tried to keep moving in a forward direction. I finally achieved self satisfaction, and that to me is what it is all about, but the road getting there can be a very long one. Once you do get a stock that satisfies you, you have to keep upgrading and refining.
Richard A.
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