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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Birmingham Roller
Birmingham Roller
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Alan Bliven
295 posts
Nov 27, 2005
5:24 PM
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What is the definition of a Birmingham Roller?
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Alan
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motherlodelofts
509 posts
Nov 27, 2005
6:18 PM
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That question doesn't make any sence Allan.
The Birmingham Roller is an established breed, not a definition.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Nov 27, 2005 6:40 PM
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Mongrel Lofts
88 posts
Nov 27, 2005
6:56 PM
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What is the definition of a Birmingham Roller?
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Alan
Alan,
I will play the game. It is anything that rolls like a spinning ball and drops straight as a boat line. Even if it is an oriental roller, a Vienna tumbler, swallow roller cross. Any bird that can roll with good quality no matter what breed it really is. If it rolls well, its a Birmingham roller. Vienna tumblers can be Birmingham rollers? Oriental rollers with 14 tail feathers and dropped wings can be Birmingham rollers if they roll right? I mean if a crow could spin, it would be a Birmingham roller.
If we are to believe what many in the USA want to say, the Birmingham roller is not a breed, its a performance description. This by all practical definition would mean their is no such thing as the Breed Birmingham roller. So I have to tell you, I find this cross anything together you like. If you can get it to roll, its a Birmingham roller. To be just a lot of BS.. Just my opinion.. Mongrel Lofts
Last Edited by Mongrel Lofts on Nov 27, 2005 6:58 PM
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Alan Bliven
296 posts
Nov 27, 2005
7:26 PM
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I believe it's a legitimate question. I don't hold to the fact that a Birmingham Roller is any pigeon that spins backwards at a fast speed and drops straight down. I see that as the definition of a "Roller" not a Birmingham Roller. As you said, there are other breeds of Rollers and even some Tumblers that can match the above description of performance.
But partially what sets apart a Roller as a Birmingham Roller has to be the fact that a Birmingham Roller has it's roots of origin in or around Birmingham England.
The Oriental Roller for example is able to spin backwards and drop in a straight line 30-50+ feet but the Oriental Roller was developed in the Mid East, not in Birmingham England. Those two are both "Rollers", yes, but they have to be two separate breeds of Rollers.
There also should be a standard a Roller has to conform to before it can be considered a true Birmingham Roller. Not anything strict, but at least to be able to tell the difference between the many breeds of Rollers.
So, no I do not believe "Birmingham Roller" should be a performance description. It should be a separate breed of Roller.
If I crossed my Birmingham Rollers with my Oriental Rollers, the resulting offspring would be neither, regardless of how well they matched the performance standard of the Birmingham Roller.
That's my humble opinion.
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Alan
Last Edited by Alan Bliven on Nov 27, 2005 7:26 PM
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Mongrel Lofts
89 posts
Nov 27, 2005
8:24 PM
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So, no I do not believe "Birmingham Roller" should be a performance description. It should be a separate breed of Roller.
If I crossed my Birmingham Rollers with my Oriental Rollers, the resulting offspring would be neither, regardless of how well they matched the performance standard of the Birmingham Roller.
That's my humble opinion.
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Alan
Hi Alan.
Well said and I can hardly believe it, but we agree. LOL You are right, you can breed the Birmingham roller on a Oriental roller and get some of the young to spin very well. I have seen that very thing done to make an almond line of rollers. The off spring were rollers, but not Birmingham rollers in my opinion. Same goes for the crosses made with other breeds. Some can and do roll well. They are not the same as the Birmingham rollers that were brought to this country from England. I know neither are the birds that have been bred for generations over here, but they are still the same genetic package without other breeds added to them since we recieved them here as the breed Birmingham roller. The guys I know and respect in this breed, have kept the Birmingham roller pure and wouldn't dream of crossing it to another breed of pigeon. Believe me, there are many strains of rollers out there, that are pure Birmingham roller. No other pigeons crossed into the lines. By pigeons I mean other breeds or even other types of tumblers. Straight B.Roller to B.Roller from the time they came here, till today.. Those I would call Birmingham rollers. Anything crossed on other breeds but that roll, I would call a roller, not a Birmingham roller.. That doesn't make the other type of rollers bad, it just means they are different. A different breed of roller, other than Birmingham roller. I understand this does not set well with many. Its my opinion and always will be. Mongrel Lofts
Last Edited by Mongrel Lofts on Nov 27, 2005 8:34 PM
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motherlodelofts
510 posts
Nov 27, 2005
8:35 PM
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Many breeds are named after the geograghicle locations where they were established , also I'm not sure that there is any other breed that can match the performance of the Birmingham , but "cull" Birminghams can and do match the performance of other breeds of rollers , I'm talking breed for breed here.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Nov 27, 2005 8:37 PM
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Alan Bliven
297 posts
Nov 27, 2005
9:51 PM
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Scott,
Right, because in the Birmingham Roller breed their performance is breed specific. As far as I know, there is no other breed of Roller bred to perform exactly like the B. Roller. It's comparing apples to oranges.
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Alan
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Alan Bliven
298 posts
Nov 27, 2005
10:01 PM
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Mongrel Lofts,
We see a lot more the same than we do differently. The same is true with my wife and I. But if my wife and I only focus in on what we disagreed on, we could never live together and be happy.
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Alan
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upcd
80 posts
Nov 28, 2005
12:15 AM
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I was on the Wests and LAPC asking the difference between Brimingham and American rollers? How do you tell all these rollers apart? Sometimes the band will give you a clue. But how do you know what you have?
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Alan Bliven
299 posts
Nov 28, 2005
9:42 AM
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It would be very hard to tell them apart by looks. You'd have to know American Rollers real well and have a very keen eye to discern between them.
The American Roller is an extremely rare breed. I'd say only one out of 10,000 Rollers is an American Roller. "American Roller" doesn't mean a Roller that was hatched in America, it's the name of a distinct breed of Roller. If you didn't buy your stock as American Rollers then I'd be willing to bet anything your birds are Birmingham Rollers.
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Alan
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
273 posts
Nov 28, 2005
10:28 AM
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Debbie, see me at the Nats and I'll show you what an American Roller looks like.
Brian.
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Ballrollers
195 posts
Nov 28, 2005
2:16 PM
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I'm not sure of the point of the discussion, exactly. The problem is that there has never been a true written standard for the breed-Birmingham roller. And there have been many generations of rollers bred from all kinds of sources, families, and geographical regions. What about the other rollers from other geographical areas in England? Are you going to tell those men that they don't have Birmingham rollers because they were a few miles from Birmingham? It is well-known that Pensom bred birds from all over England, if they had the performance he was looking for. I believe that Pensom's classic definition of a spinning ball was his effort to set the standard for performance very high, and to define the breed based on performance, primarily, because of the diversity of the background of the birds, and because of the similarity in type between many rollers of the day, making a physical definition of standard based on physical characteristics alone, nearly impossible. But one cannot simply disregard heritage. If one of two nestmates spins and one is a flipper, obviously, the flipper is still a Birmingham Roller by heritage; as Scott said, a "cull" Birmingham roller. I think Pensom was also trying to differentiate the breed from other rolling breeds of the time with his famous definition. And I think we have the same problem with the American Roller. What is the breed standard, Brian? How do you distinguish the American? Can you, consistently and easily, pick them out of cage full of rollers? (As you could two different breeds of dogs, for example?) The standard must be based on a variety of type and performance characteristics. Hundreds of lofts in the US crossed Americans and Birminghams and after hundreds of generations, I don't believe anyone alive today could easily distinguish these birds based on performance or type. Are these Birmingham rollers? And how is that determined? It all goes back to some guy's word that his birds are "pure bred", for whatever that's worth, considering all the crossbreeding between families of rollers that has been done. (And then he cannot speak for what took place in the guy's loft generations before him!)
So how would you write a SPECIFIC breed standard for the Birmingham roller? What would that look like? How would it differ from that of the American roller and other rollers? What is the most important aspect of the definition of the standard? physical characteristcs? performance? color? pedigree? geographical origin? degree of purity? What if a bird is 99/100ths Birmingham and 1/100th American roller? Would he qualify? What degree of purity qualifies and how would it be proved? How would that standard as a whole be enforced or proved? And like I said in the beginning, what's the point really? to exclude certain crosses or all crosses from membership or competition? Doesn't it really just amount to braggin' rights? So if there is no practical application of the discussion, then it's a moot point and pointless. Fact is, we do not have a breed standard. Nobody can REALLY prove what they have in their lofts. (I know that ought to ddraw some fire! LOL) All you can do is talk about it and base your opinions on things that somebody else said, or some potentially flawed paperwork....that is until we draw a line in the sand and say, "This is it". "This" defines the breed and will provide a frame of reference for future generations of roller breeders to operate within. Then we will have done something useful and positive for the breed. And I think this is what Kenny is attempting to do. HE believes HE has the real thing. And he doesn't want to see it spoiled by changing it in any way. Ya gotta respect that! Problem is, so do a few hundred other guys (feel the same way) and there may be differences in those birds, their physical characteristics, their color, their performance, and their geographical origin on the planet. So I'm not sure where that leaves us except talking about it......I guess that's a good thing. YITS Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Nov 28, 2005 2:19 PM
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Alohazona
93 posts
Nov 28, 2005
11:20 PM
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Cliff,
I would have to agree with you,on telling the difference between an American and a Birmingham roller,especially on the ground.In Arizona,I had an american roller with a gold"UARC"band trap into my loft.She spun beautifully and never flew high out of sight,she was a red mealy bar,very small and compact,very intelligent.I ended up bringing her to Hawaii,even though she was barren.This hen actually was the bird that kept my first youngbird in Hawaii kitting and up in the air.I definetly could not tell the difference,but given the gold band,the breeder was a serious american roller fancier.
As for Wests,one I had was thrown in on a deal of Norwich croppers.Loved the croppers, the West was a big time bully,very aggressive,although astunning bird.He got out of the loft,I didn't bother to catch him GOOD RIDDENCE.Since then I pass on the Wests,but I do like to look,LOL........ALOHA,Todd
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Velo99
172 posts
Nov 29, 2005
4:40 AM
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While on the subject of breeds, I recently attended a show and have been quite taken with the Mookies. I like the fantail look without all of the goofy feathers. The shimmy was kinda cool as well. My brother told me they were quite affable little birds and a lot of fun to raise.
YITS
V99
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merced guy
25 posts
Nov 29, 2005
12:30 PM
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great discussion,
In order to creat something there must be a beginning. How was the name Birmingham rollers Coin??????if the folks in Birmingham had not cultivated this breed, then it would have been a different name from-- where it was originally cultivated. I guess the misconception is that probably the folks in Birmingham hadn't given the birds a name other the Black country rollers. Now if they have given the birds a name then, would we be still debating over this. Since there was no ligitimate name given, people started using a discription, but that discription also pertains to some other similar breeds and so the confusion--- if it is a breed or a description. there should be a consensus over this matter.
in the sport
thong
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upcd
82 posts
Nov 29, 2005
1:19 PM
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Now, since Americans were bred with the Briminghams. Couldn't you take all birds in your loft that had flesh colored beaks and preal eyes and breed them together and draw out the American Roller in a couple of years?
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Shaun
212 posts
Nov 29, 2005
2:34 PM
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I read these discussions and tend to do a bit of head scratching. Cliff, despite all you say, there have been many generations of people who have not dreamed of crossing in the way you suggest. Obviously, I can't speak for America - though Kenny has put up a very good case for those who have remained true to the breed standard. You can ask questions as to to the validity of what they've been up to over the years, but I feel you're coming at it from the wrong angle. It seems as if you're asking how they can be trusted to have ensured there's been no hanky panky, somewhere along the line. I would come at it from the opposite angle: why would they feel the need to?
I've said this before and, no doubt, it will come up time and again but, in the UK, the standard which existed back to Pensom's time has continued, uninterrupted for a further five decades. There hasn't been any collective desire to change the standard because it continues to be precisely that - a breed standard. If any American had a mind and some money and some tenacity, he/she could safely import rollers from the UK - from any of the established flyers - and be rest assured that the birds will have been bred continuously - Birmingham roller to Birmingham roller, one generation after the other. Bits of paper with pedigrees mean bugger-all; we're talking the reputation of solid guys here. There's nothing else, really. But, in terms of what little guarantees there are in life, that is enough for most.
In Britain, the Birmingham Roller remains a breed standard; it simply hasn't been subjected to the cross-breeding which has gone on in the US. Call them barn pigeons, if you like, but you could safely enter the loft of any successful flyer in the UK and see nothing other than the usual acknowledged permutations of chequers, mealies, grizzles, etc, which have existed for rather a long time.
We really are continents apart on this one.
Shaun
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Mongrel Lofts
90 posts
Nov 29, 2005
8:46 PM
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In Britain, the Birmingham Roller remains a breed standard; it simply hasn't been subjected to the cross-breeding which has gone on in the US. Call them barn pigeons, if you like, but you could safely enter the loft of any successful flyer in the UK and see nothing other than the usual acknowledged permutations of chequers, mealies, grizzles, etc, which have existed for rather a long time.
We really are continents apart on this one.
Shaun
Hi Shaun,
Good post and one the guys in the USA should try to understand. Shaun, I assure you there are many lofts in the states that have kept the Birmingham roller as a pure breed. Especially if you start with the birds that Pensom brought over to this country and shipped over here ahead of him. Many fine men have kept the breed pure as the day it came here.
On the other hand, some fanciers have crossed the Birmingham roller on many other breeds for several different reason's. Some of these men have been up front as to what and why they were crossing to Ice Pigeons, swallows, oriental frills and the likes. Others, were not up front and would be harder to say where there birds have ended up. These type of rollers are an American made breed, changed and not the same as the Birmingham roller that was brought to and imported from England. Some of these American made rollers, are fine rollers. They are just a breed of their own. Some you can tell at a glance are different. Some you have to breed from to learn the crosses that have been put in them.
As far as the Birmingham rollers go. We can follow many lofts right back to Pensom and the birds he brought from England. Some only passing through the hands of four or five men. I suggest we call those birds Birmingham rollers. Those that men have tried their best to be sure what they have are the real deal. Birmingham rollers bred to Birmingham rollers and no other breed of pigeon or roller. Like you guys in England, many men over the years have strived to keep the breed Birmingham roller intact and pure as a breed.. These are the Birmingham rollers in this country!!!!!
I would say a good place to start separating the roller breeds in our country, is to start with those birds that we know for a fact have been crossed to other breeds of pigeons here in the USA.. This alone would clear up a lot of the confusion about the Birmingham roller as a breed in this country.. If we could just separate the birds we know have been crossed to other breeds into their own roller breed. American rare colored roller. American crested rollers and so on. If a Birmingham roller is crossed onto another breed and a new breed of roller created. Why don't the creator name that breed? Instead of trying to say its the same as before I crossed it to another breed.. If this were true, how do you create the different breeds of rollers and tumblers? Or breeds of pigeons for that matter, if not by crossing breeds of pigeons?
Shaun, it will never be done though. For the life of me I don't know why, but it won't.. Guys will use things like its 99% Birmingham roller and we only kept the tuff on the chest or the toy stencil factor and the rest is all Birmingham roller. Many in America seam to enjoy the confusion over clarity. Calling all Birmingham rollers crossed up mutts, to be able to say their crosses are the same thing as the Birmingham roller and nothing different. No matter what the Birmingham roller has been crossed on, its the same as the Birmingham roller imported to this country. In the minds of many here. Odd I know, but the way it is here.. Mongrel Lofts
PS. I hope one day Shaun, the men who have created new breeds of rollers in America will name and claim them. I know I would if I had made them..
On the other hand, I hope that one day, we will be able to call the Birmingham roller a breed without having to defend it as a even being a breed..
I doubt this will ever be possible now, due to the purposeful confusion that has been the format of those that have crossed the breeds. For whatever reason..
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Alan Bliven
301 posts
Nov 30, 2005
11:32 AM
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Mongrel Lofts,
Welcome to the world of pigeon breeds. That's just the way it is with almost all breeds of pigeons. They cross breed into other breeds to "improve" them, either in type, color, performance or whatever and those that have been crossed always remain the same breed.
Take the West of England Tumbler for example. It was my favorite breed as a kid in the 60's. I believe back then they were mostly pure from England. But if you look at the breed today, they crossed many other breeds into them to "improve" them and they look much different today than the birds of my youth.
The point is, they still remain West of England Tumblers. Like it or not, that's just the way it is in the world of pigeon breeds.
They've done the same with Homers and countless other breeds. Almost every breed is constantly in flux with crossing into other breeds for "improvements."
At the last Pigeon show I attended, the owner of the winning Norwich Cropper admitted to me that the winner's grandfather was a ROLLER! Imagine that! I was shocked at how fast he brought back the Norwich type from Roller blood. I guess he used the Roller to introduce a different color into his Norwich.
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Alan
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upcd
83 posts
Dec 03, 2005
6:21 PM
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So has anyone come up with what a Brimingham should look like?
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Alan Bliven
305 posts
Dec 04, 2005
8:56 AM
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http://www.azpigeons.org/flyingperformingrollers.htm
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Alan
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siddiqir
104 posts
Dec 07, 2005
12:43 PM
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Bill Pensom has explained >>> what is the definition of a Birmingham Roller? <<< You may want to read Pensom book.
Here you go
http://www.sierrawave.com/pensom/
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jord
1 post
Dec 08, 2005
10:07 AM
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what are the best rollers slow or fast and is it ok to breed them together
Last Edited by jord on Dec 08, 2005 10:08 AM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
288 posts
Dec 09, 2005
12:30 PM
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Debbie, there is no standard for the BR. The only "standard" is in regards to their performance, coined largely by Bill Pensom. In terms of physical, there is nothing and will never be anything because by and large, good to even great rollers come in all sorts of physical packages.
Brian.
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nicksiders
309 posts
Dec 09, 2005
12:40 PM
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I think what is being asked is what wins at the shows. There has to be a standard even for the performers for them to be judged against........now, how about a straight answer from those who show thier birds.
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birdman
95 posts
Dec 09, 2005
12:57 PM
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Nick, performance rollers that win prizes at a bird show are only being judged on their physical make up. It (type)doesn't mean squat if the bird doesn't have the right brains and heart. A performance breed can only be judged by performance alone, and like Brian said, they come in assorted packages.
Russ
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
290 posts
Dec 09, 2005
1:15 PM
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Nick, I'll let you in on a little secret. I am a show guy. I have hundreds upon hundreds of show birds and breed only to show them and win. Those breeds have written standards of perfections with drawings showing what the "perfect" specimen is to look like. Show birds are dissected for every category within the written standard. This standard does not exist with flying rollers. Therefore, I nor anyone can tell Debbie that your rollers is supposed to look like this or that, or this type of rollers wins. It all varies and is solely dependent upon what the judge prefers.
It is a crap shoot? You bet. But by and large, most flying roller judges have a good idea of what a flown, well conditioned roller exhibiting bright expression and good health will look like. The rest is up to the preference of the judge in what he feels the birds are worth as far as a roller goes. Keep in mind, that most of the time, many of the top winning rollers in a show are stiffs, roll downs or culls, proving you show your rollers just to have fun, not to win anything based upon special merit.
Brian.
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upcd
88 posts
Dec 10, 2005
1:24 AM
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Strange thing, when it came to showing I was single minded and focused on one breed, Indain Fantails. Now with children, They seem to like differnt breeds. I enjoy all pigeons. However, I wanted to help the kids as much as possible so it would be a fun hobby. I am learning about rolling nad flying. It is a new field for me. so I am thankful for all your help and advise.
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Shaun
220 posts
Dec 10, 2005
9:10 AM
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Brian, can I quickly ask you something; you know I've admired the pics of your Wests? Is there any sort of US show standard? I raise this because, as of now, in the UK, there's still no West breed standard. Some will show birds which can barely fly, whilst others still regularly fly theirs. They compete in the show pen head to head.
Before I got into rollers, I quite liked the idea of those feather-legged tumblers, which I had as a kid. However, it seems I've been more persuaded by the performing roller. However, 30 years after my last tumblers, the West is much the same as I remember it back then. What I'm saying is that in the UK - unlike our very clear differences between the show roller and the flying roller - the Wests still seem to be one and the same bird. The only difference is that some choose not to fly their birds, whilst others do.
Shaun
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
291 posts
Dec 10, 2005
6:16 PM
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Shaun, thanks on the pics.
We have a quite extensive standard of perfection for Wests in America. You can check out nwoetc.com, the standard is there if you would like to see it.
We have several fanciers from the UK and one from Australia that frequent a West site we have. Based on the pics they post of their birds and the input from some of the older guys here who were around not long after they were imported here, the consensus is that overall, the ones pictured seem quite similar to the old world Wests. The only real difference would be body size, which naturally would be larger on a bird that isn't flown and frequently shown.
As you can see, our Wests here have taken on a new look, especially over the last 20 years. Prior to that, they were pretty much the same.
Brian.
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upcd
91 posts
Dec 11, 2005
2:04 AM
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The West of England tumbler is larger when it is a show bird and smaller when it is a flyer. I am thinking I have both kinds. Who know? Does the same thing happen with the show roller and the preformer?
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motherlodelofts
513 posts
Dec 11, 2005
8:52 AM
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What do you mean by a "new" look ? are they still really Wests or has the breed been compromised /mongralized like many other of the show breeds ?
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Ballrollers
201 posts
Dec 12, 2005
2:57 PM
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Back to the original question, Alan.....I remain perplexed. Several of us have now asked about the breed standard for rollers and what that would look like. So far; no response. Some say it is performance based, since they are performance birds. Most all breeds of performance animals have evolved from crosses of certain other breeds, just as did Birmingham rollers. These performance breeds do, in fact, have a breed standard. Most have color variations, and almost none are exclusive based on color. Most folks recognize that "configuration" or "type" is what generates or facilitates the desired performance trait, (not color)so the standard is based on both type or configuration and performance. Some in our discussion have agreed that several "types" in rollers can generate the desired performance, thus making it harder to define the correct "type". Perhaps we need a broader definition of "type" that would include all types that can produce the desired performance. The fact is that we don't really know too much about "type" as it relates to performance. There is much variability within the breed. A breed standard cannot be entirely based on performance. There will be individuals in the breed that simply do not perform to the "standard" regardless of how well they confirm to the "type" standard. That doesn't make them "not a member of the breed", just a poor performing member of the breed. How, then,do any of these discussions about these different opinions about "standards" give us the knowledge to fly better rollers? If these standards are so important to those that are crying about keeping the breed pure, and moaning about the importation of color modifying genes, why then can we not define the standards to which they so blindly adhere? And since rollers with a slight variation in their so-called standard (color, as one example) are capable of equal or better performance, in some cases, than some of the "pure-breds"; shouldn't the definition of the standard be broadened to include that "type" characteristic as well, especially if we are emphasizing the performance basis of the breed?? As I asked before, what is most important in defining the standard of the breed? That its roots are entirely and consistently from birds from Birmingham, England (pedigree)? Its performance characteristics? Its color? Did every bird that Pensom exported to the USA come from Birmingham? Did he verify the heritage of each and every bird that he sent to the USA? Can we confirm that all of those birds performed to the performance standard? What about those lean years for Pensom when we know that he bought and sold many birds that he did not raise? Do we correctly have concerns about the heritage of those birds? You bet. My concern (Shaun) is not only what families of tumblers were crossed into the Birminghams after Pensom's time, (which you appear to feel pretty comfortable accounting for), but what about before his time? And how in God's name would a "breed standard" based on pedigree be enforced? Based on someone's word? I doubt it. And I can show you any number of blue checks and black selfs out of Andalusian and Indigo rollers that I challenge anyone to distinguish from a pedigree bird. And I can show you any number of "pedigreed" birds by the hundreds throughout the USA that are not capable of performing to the standard. So all-in-all, since we have so few answers to these questions, it seems like this conversation is going nowhere, is of little benefit to the hobby, and is, basically, not helping anyone breed better rollers. JMAO Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Dec 12, 2005 3:41 PM
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Shaun
222 posts
Dec 13, 2005
1:14 PM
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Cliff, you're so intense about this, I don't know what to say to make you feel any better. This sort of discussion has been going around in circles for so long now, I'm sure there's nothing to be gained from my responding. However, you took the time to post, so let's give it a whirl.
I would start by saying that any formal description as to the Birmingham Roller, is a waste of time. There are tipplers, for example, which look much the same as BRs, but with the roll having been bred out of them. For many, it would be easy to confuse one with the other. The BR doesn't have much in the way of easy-to-identify features, so a breed standard will always be difficult.
However, my main concern is Cliff's continued assertions as to the purity of the true Birmingham Roller. My opening gambit, in response, would be that the US is vast, yet so parochial. So, forget, for the moment, if you can, what's happened in the US. I know, Cliff, that you assert that cross-breeding ended 50-75 years ago, whilst others in the US maintain that it's still going on right now. There's probably truth in both arguments, perhaps depending upon whom you're obtaining your birds from. The essence of your argument, as to breed standard, is that it's not possible to police what some will get up to behind closed doors. I'm sure you have a valid point. But don't the likes of Kenny also have some credence, in that there are still guys who have seen no need whatsoever to cross this with that, in order to achieve something different? Yes, we all know that some people have had supposedly true Birmingham Rollers which have turned out to be crap. But, that means nothing; there's a general consensus that one crap fancier can ruin a superb strain in no time at all, just through poor handling and breeding choices. Obtaining birds such as this says nothing about the greater good of those birds, but more about the poor breeding of their progeny.
I would have more respect for your argument, Cliff, as to the standard for the Birmingham Roller, if you were to investigate outside of the US. If, having done this, you were to return with your research and tell us all that all the major players on the world roller stage, were no different to the US - you know (in no particular order), Holland, Australia, South Africa, the UK, etc - they've all crossed this with that - yet, they all roll very well..... perhaps, then, you have a valid point. Have you looked outside of the US?
Holland, much smaller than even the UK and, therefore, miniscule compared to the US - well, we all know their top guy and his world achievements - he's phenomenal. Do any of you guys actually looks to what's behind his birds? Instead of talking about the US Fall Fly, etc - think beyond that and wonder what the big flies are for the other major players within their own roller communities. For example, would you know that in England, the 'All England' fly is more fiercely contested than the World Cup? This is because it's peer against peer, as opposed to strangers competing against each other from different continents. Yet, all the US talks about it its Fall Fly and the World Cup.
Cliff, I can only reiterate what's been said many times before: the Birmingham Roller, like any other breed, became a standard because there was some sort of consensus that it had reached a stage of development where it was worthwhile preserving. For many, that heritage is now valued. Certainly, there are those, like yourself, who question the validity and authenticity of this - somehow expecting a scientific explanation as to how and why this should be. But, a man of your intelligence should, surely, appreciate that certain matters can't be quantified like that - religion and politics are the the obvious examples. You're reaching into the hearts and souls of people who feel passionately about their choice. Badgering them into justifying their stance on some sort of practical over emotional basis, is never going to happen.
Yet, surely, their stance is nothing at all to be ashamed of - not do they need to justify it; they simply take the view that they know of many people who, for generations, have kept the Birmingham Roller as pure as is humanly possible..... and, they intend to do the same.
Cliff, in my country and yours - and I daresay other countries also, there will be gnarled old guys, still alive now, who've only ever bred (what they perceive to be) Birmingham Roller to Birmingham Roller. Yes, of course, someone might have tinkered here and there, unbeknown to his contemporaries - but, that could happen with any breed standard, of any creature, anywhere in the world.
No-one is expecting a 100 percent, guaranteed, never-tampered-with Birmingham Roller. We're talking about the hearts and souls of many solid guys, who've never seen the need to change things for generation after generation. Why, oh why, Cliff, can't you just accept this?
Wearily yours.
Shaun
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Ballrollers
203 posts
Dec 13, 2005
7:12 PM
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Sorry Shaun,
I just can't accept a logic that would attempt to draw an arbitrary line in the sand in the developement of the Birmingham Roller and say, "We accept the tippler blood, the Oriental Roller blood, the Dutch Tumbler blood and all the crosses of the multiple families of rollers in England before Pensom's day as part of a pure breed. But any crosses afterward should be named as a new breed." It's that self-righteous attitude that some individuals have about any singular family or strain of rollers that galls me. As you said yourself...."there were many gnarled old guys who've only ever bred (what they perceive to be) Birmingham Roller to Birmingham Roller....of course some may have tinkered here and there...." I think it's great that guys like Kenny want to believe that his birds are the real deal, and so he has no need to cross anything to them to achieve anything better. Guess what, Shaun. I feel the same way! And so do hundreds of men throughout the USA and the world. The difference is that most aren't making a case that they have something better based on some notion or agenda to call anything else "another breed"...without any basis in science or fact. Problem is, it's the same old childish school-boy mentality of "mine are better than yours". I do not question the validity and authenticity of the Birmingham Roller, Shaun. I question the validity and authenticity of that mentality.
If I can accept the fact that your blue/red check/bar/selfs/WF rollers spin with enough depth and quality to satisfy you and your countrymen to the point that you call them fine examples of true Birmingham Rollers, can you accept that my birds, some of which show some color modifiers and some not, but still spinning with speed,depth and quality to satisfy me and many of my countrymen, and capable of winning OUR local, regional, national and World Cup events.....can you accept that they too are fine examples of true Birmingham Rollers? If we drop the name game and realize that performance is what counts, many of these divisive debates will go the way of the Dodo bird. But since history shows us that the plight of the roller fancy is wrought with many, many simmering emotional and deep seated diputes over this and that, I see it as just another part of that roller game. What we call them is of little importance compared to their spectacular performance; performance that can only be achieved by a true Birmingham Roller. YITS Cliff
PS No intensity here, Shaun....just making conversation about the birds and the hobby we know and love!
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Dec 13, 2005 7:13 PM
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Velo99
178 posts
Dec 13, 2005
8:42 PM
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We slowly but surely make the circle back around to breeding.Who has a bird in mind when they begin to breed other than " a bird who will roll 50 feet then pull back to the kit on a rubber band"? The birds most of us breed are Birmingham Rollers. There are some who think outside the box and outcross to enhance their progams. I feel these are few.
We are a performance based sport. We breed to enhance performance. Who can truly say what is a Birmingham Roller. Is it a show standard... so many tail feathers , such and such a stance or head shape? Or is it a performance based issue? How well does a pigeon have to roll to be a Birmingham? Are those the only qualifications? These qualities can only be found in the Birminghham Roller? Probably so. This is what makes it a Birmingham Roller.
Our breed was a mutt to begin with so I think the standard is really a moot point because we breed toward one of two goals ....... show or fly.
MTC YITS
V99
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upcd
96 posts
Dec 13, 2005
10:34 PM
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greetings Gentlemen, I love this topic. I have seen two body types. short, little and round. Tall, long and large. and even some in between. Wonder what the judge is into at the Nationals. Then there is color. Some like and some don't.
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
297 posts
Dec 13, 2005
11:35 PM
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Debbie, the judge will most likely be looking for the bird which best represents his opinion of what a good performing roller feels like and looks like.
Brian.
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Shaun
225 posts
Dec 14, 2005
4:40 AM
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Cliff, my friend, I hear you. But, let me try and offer an insight into the mindset of those who steadfastly refuse to accept the Birmingham Roller as a 'work in progress'.
England, like much of Europe, is a small country. In order to identify itself, it clings dearly to its heritage. Should you cross the borders between one European country and any of its neighbours, you will find the same thing - each country's heritage is different, yet savagely defended.
But, the US has 'adopted' some of these heritages, but then shaped them into what it prefers. If you like, it's a bit like Microsoft buying up some small, successful company, wiping it off the map, then changing it to suit the Microsoft way.
Some go along with this, on the basis that change is the future; others simply wish to keep the heritage just as it was - because they feel it didn't need 'improving'.
I know you're right in that there are birds out there which will conform to the Birmingham Roller performance ideal.... but, many would say, that performance alone doesn't make them Birmingham Rollers.
Cliff, if you believe that the term 'Birmingham Roller' is nothing more than a performance description, then fine; you have many on your side. However, for others, it's more than that; surely, you appreciate that's where the division lies?
I visit my step-sister in Florida each year. I go out for a meal. Every time, her mates all want to talk about our Royal Family. For God's sake, why? - it's the last thing we talk about. OK, the US then imports our Royal Family, because it's got a great heritage. Would you leave it as it is, or start tweaking with it to make it better?
Sorry, I'm rambling; I just don't get why some feel a standard has been reached, whilst others continually want to bugger about with it.
Shaun
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Mongrel Lofts
93 posts
Dec 14, 2005
6:11 AM
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Shaun,
I wish I could post a picture on this darn thing.. You can never win here, but I thank you for putting forward the effort. I will send you a picture of what some call a pure pensom Birmingham roller over here. This is of course a mongrel crossed up bird,, but Pensom and Birmingham roller sells, so the name even after the cross continues..
Heck KGB you need to get away from the list that are madeup of just roller people , you might get to see birds as big and fat as modenias called Petagreed Pensoms . I know that there are quit a few guys that you call a bird a roller they are talking about birds that at lest have been out of little show pens but even the majority of pigeon breeders are verry confused about the name roller . How many birds do you see on eggbid that are forsale as Mason birds that might somewhere in their ansestory had a bird that was down from a Mason bird that have at lest thre colorsand factors . I didnt know that Mr Mason had exported that many birds but for some reason the real color breeders are all useing the name of Masons .
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Ballrollers
204 posts
Dec 14, 2005
9:36 AM
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Thank you Shaun for hearing me and for making an effort to understand another's point of view. I respect that in a man. I understand and agree with the motivation to keep the Birmingham Roller, as we know it today, free from the encroachment of other breeds that would alter its type or its performance. As I have said many times, I don't advocate the cross-breeding of tipplers for pearl eyes or high flying or anything else, for that matter. But what's done is done. And, in my family of rollers, it was done hundreds of generations ago rendering the genetic impact of the outcross miniscule, based on scientific fact. Color modifying genes have been imported into most performance breeds, without significantly altering the breed, yet I do not hear individuals in the homer world, for example, crying that those birds should be classified as a different breed, (because they are not!) They are homers with color modifiers. It's the same with Tipplers, Tumblers and Birmingham Rollers.
I also agree with you that performance alone is not the only thing that makes a Birmingham Roller. I do not believe that the BR is "nothing more than a performance description", as you suggested. I believe that a body type or configuration, feathering characteristics,and heritage are all part of what makes the breed. But the breed is VERY DIVERSE at this point in time, and our discussion of a breed standard must include a wide range of geographical derivations, performance characteristics, body type characteristics, feathering (crests? muffs?), patterns, and color modifiers. The whole point I am trying to make is that it is rediculous for any one breeder to say, "Mine are the only real deal. Anything else is another breed." (We are not talking about KGB's smokescreen bringing up the travesty to the breed called the "show roller"as a legitimate example. I don't think many would disagree that this was an abomination and neither it nor the breeding practices that created it have any place in the breed or in the sport.) It seems that we are reaching a level of understanding each other in the discussion, in any case. YITS Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Dec 14, 2005 9:38 AM
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rollerpigeon
Site Moderator
426 posts
Dec 14, 2005
9:47 AM
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Hello All, this is an interesting and informative(confusing lol)topic but probably one of the most important discussions to have. I am enjoying reading all the opinions and thoughts of everyone who has posted.
But I would like to give the other visitors who have not posted a chance to register their opinion on this topic by going to our Roller Pigeon Polls page and vote on this topic: Vote Here
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by rollerpigeon on Dec 14, 2005 9:49 AM
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Shaun
226 posts
Dec 14, 2005
10:44 AM
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Cliff, by coincidence, I've just been reading a ream of posts from a different forum, from exactly a year ago. Your goodself, Kenny, Scott and many others had their say.
It was much the same topic as this one and the opinions were, inevitably, many and varied. But, there were a good number who stood up for what they believed to be the true Birmingham Roller and to stress that it's still very much alive and kicking in the US. What gets the likes of Kenny and Scott angry, is newcomers being told the BR of old is dead and gone - so, now, here's the new, 'improved' version.
Now, where I have a problem, Cliff, is that whilst many of your peers seem very open to the fact that cross-breeding for colour and pattern (in the name of the Birmingham Roller), remains an ongoing battle to counter, you're still maintaining that such crossing ended 50-75 year ago.
You can see where a man from over the Atlantic might get a bit confused?
Shaun
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
298 posts
Dec 14, 2005
12:48 PM
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I officially have American Competition Rollers....and I sleep really good at night not having to worry if my birds are Birminghams or descendants of Crossinghams. I'll burn every pedigree I have, even if they can trace back to some freakin' old guy that was well liked. I really don't care...LOL. Go fly your rollers people! Life really is too short, unless there is some void you are trying to fill with a hunger to justify your thoughts and beliefs. There are only two things certain in life. We will be born, and we will die. Your last day could be tomorrow. Why waste it trying to add value to opinions when you would make good use of it, and, be happier in the end. I'm gonna go fly some American Competition Rollers now.
Brian.
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Ballrollers
205 posts
Dec 14, 2005
2:24 PM
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Shaun, I think the differnce lies in that they (KGB and Scott)are speaking of the hobby as a whole; many of the men and many families of birds; some crossing in Tipplers for eye color, some crossing in parlors to see what happens, etc. I happen to agree with that basic premise that those activities are unethical. I am only speaking of my family of rollers and the many men I know that are absolutely committed to performance who have no interest in crossbreeding in any way shape or form, working with a family of rollers that imported color modifiers decades ago. YITS Cliff
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motherlodelofts
514 posts
Dec 14, 2005
5:28 PM
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"Imported color modifiers" LOL LOL not all put performance first or they wouldn't have, let me see if I can say this with a straight face "imported the color modifier " LOL fart LOL fart LOL sorry I couldn't dit it with a straight face.
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Dec 14, 2005 5:33 PM
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Vibey
4 posts
Feb 03, 2006
2:28 PM
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I believe a birmingham roller is a specific strain of roller and the birmingham part describes the place of origin that the breed was developed .
Like the Pensom roller , although the pensom name does not describe the geographical region , it is the name of the breeder who developed this bloodline. Just my two cents worth ...where's my change ??...lol
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nicksiders
412 posts
Feb 03, 2006
2:47 PM
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Wasn't Pensom's birds Birmingham Rollers? I think Bill brought them from England as Birminghams. Developed his own strain maybe, but they were a strain of Birminghams.
Just my 50 cent worth
Last Edited by nicksiders on Feb 03, 2006 2:48 PM
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jim
13 posts
Mar 15, 2006
1:32 PM
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if the bird can roll it is a roller,yellow, green.purple
most competion men breed the roller for speed .
pensom rollers are for money
english rollers are for money
you can see why and were this is going pure breed anything is for money
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knaylor
75 posts
Mar 15, 2006
1:54 PM
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Jim, you are right. Scott and Kenny and a few of us others breed BR's for the money... LOL Kevin
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