Sam
1 post
Dec 04, 2005
7:35 AM
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Hi, Everyone !
Do any of you know, personally, anyone who raises/flys the North American Highflyers & has kept them pure and bred strictly for the _very_ deep roll ?
I have been searching for these, the last 5 yrs. Nothing so far, I found several who claimed they had them, but turned out to be kids bragging to each other. Or bird jockys.
I had some in the early 70s, but had to let them go, due to job transfer & now I am beginning to believe they probably no longer exist ?
I would appreciate a "heads-up" on here from anyone with current on them !
Thanks !
Sam
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Alan Bliven
304 posts
Dec 04, 2005
8:48 AM
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I have only one pair and I am working on getting more. How pure they are I can't say. It's a bastard breed to behin with but the cock bird these are out of rolls 200 feet. Mine are from the Appleberry line.
Bill Latham and Charlie Hubbs have another strain.
You may have a hard time finding any available. I buy all I can get my hands on and that's not many.
I made up a couple of websites with some pics of them if you'd like to check them out.
http://www.cichlidlovers.com/birds_nahfr.htm
http://www.cichlidlovers.com/birds_appleberry.htm
Also, Mort Emani in Utah has a white strain. He may breed you some but I have no idea how his perform.
But you may have to recreate them yourself. If you would have started 5 years ago, you'd be well on your way :)
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Alan
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Sam
2 posts
Dec 04, 2005
11:18 AM
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Alan
From my experience (had a great strain of beagles for 30 yrs) , & what I've read, you can only bring out what's there thru breeding, you cannot "create". That is why successful, respected Breeders always advise you start with the the best you can get .
Thus, my search here for someone who may knows of a breeder that has held to the original strain.
Thanks ! Sam
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Alan Bliven
308 posts
Dec 04, 2005
11:25 AM
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It's a lot different with dogs. Why can't you re-create? They were created at one time, they can be re-created again. They've done that with other breeds of pigeons, this one is no different.
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Alan
Last Edited by Alan Bliven on Dec 04, 2005 11:27 AM
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Alan Bliven
309 posts
Dec 04, 2005
11:34 AM
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Let me give you an example. We are working with Scottish Horseman Pouters. There were none in this country till recently. So, some breeders re-created the breed using Brunners and Spanish Thief pouter breeds and within a few generations the type and performance is equal to the original birds in Scotland.
Some of the guys over in Scotland did the same, despite the fact they are as common over their as Rollers are here. They used local non- Horseman Pouters, Homers and Tumblers to re-create the breed to try and improve it.
If you know how the NAHFR was created in the first place, simply follow what they did. But if it's too great of a challenge, I understand. You need to know what you are doing.
Many of these rare breeds of Rollers like the Fireball and NAHFR would be better served if they were out crossed a little or even re-created because most are so inbred they are destroying themselves.
BTW... The National Performing Roller Assoc is coming out with an article on the NAHFR in it's next bulletin. Here's a link to a discussion about it from the forum: http://users.boardnation.com/~performing_rollers/index.php?board=6;action=display;threadid=26;start=20
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Alan
Last Edited by Alan Bliven on Dec 04, 2005 11:41 AM
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Sam
3 posts
Dec 04, 2005
12:47 PM
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Allan
I am only interested in finding a breeder of the North American HighFlyers. This is my purpose for starting this thread.
I have my own opinions on breeding, but, that is not what the thread is about.
I did run into the "Appleberry" strain though. It was in the "Poultry Connection's" Youth Group, last year I think. I didn't follow thru on it thouugh, as it sounded like a kid's nic. You could probably find it in their Archives if you want more of the family.
Thanks !
Sam
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Alan Bliven
311 posts
Dec 04, 2005
12:53 PM
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Appleberry is the name of the guy that kept this strain for countless years. OK, I won't waste my time anymore with this, it don't seem like you are serious.
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Alan
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Sam
4 posts
Dec 05, 2005
5:11 AM
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Alan
I am well aware that Strains are usually named after the breeder/developer of the strain. I was referring to the "Nic" (name the guy was posting under)
Anyway, fellows I would appreciate hearing from anyone who knows where I can find some of the original North Americans !
Thanks
Sam
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Mongrel Lofts
91 posts
Dec 05, 2005
6:23 AM
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It's a lot different with dogs. Why can't you re-create? They were created at one time, they can be re-created again. They've done that with other breeds of pigeons, this one is no different.
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Alan
Hi List,
I hope you all have been following this thread. I think it should help Clarify some things about the debate we have been having for some time now on the Birmingham roller. Go through and read this topic. This is why we have West of England's that can't fly, kit or spin for the most part anymore. This is why we have show rollers, who are to fat to fly to the perch. This is what we Birmingham roller breeders are trying to say. There is a breed of Birmingham roller that was established a couple 100 years ago. It was imported to this country. There are many birds in this country, that have not had the mad scientist recreation crossing of other breeds into them, to make the improvements some guys think the Birmingham roller lacked. The didn't lack roll, velocity, frequency or depth. SO they weren't crossed for any sporting value but for cosmetic value.
So Alan is right.. You can cross any and all breeds. Get a bird to look some what like one of the breeds and call the pigeon and show the pigeon as that breed. To some, it is the same thing as the breed they think it looks like. To others, its just a crossed up bird and not the same as their long established breed. To some, the crosses are an improvement and the recreated breed, replaces the original breed.. WOW, no wonder we are worlds apart when it comes to breeding rollers.
I just thought this was kind of an eye opener. Reading along and seeing what and how some think about breeding pigeons. I guess I'm just an old timer now, stuck on the old ways and the old breeds. Shoot, I even thought and believed there were established breeds. I didn't know if I didn't like how big the head was on a Vienna tumbler, I could cross a short face tumbler on it, make a Vienna tumbler with a huge fat head, and call it the same breed?
I guess I will forever just be a backwards thinking Established breed Birmingham roller Breeder.. Mongrel Lofts
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Sam
5 posts
Dec 05, 2005
7:24 AM
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Mongrel,
Yes! This is why I want to find a like-minded breeder of the original North American Highflyers.
It would take an inflated ego of great proportion for me to think I , in my remaining years, could bring back what took the original breeders so many years to accomplish.
Thanks, well said
Sam
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Alan Bliven
312 posts
Dec 05, 2005
9:38 AM
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Mongrel Lofts,
I don't know why this is such a touchy issue with you unless you are secretly envious of all the pretty birds that can out perform your blue checks. What's the big deal? Live and let live.
You hurt this forum by being a troll that jumps down everyone's throat that asks a genetic color question. I don't understand your bitterness, even the board of the NBRC doesn't agree with you or your attitude.
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Alan
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Alan Bliven
313 posts
Dec 05, 2005
9:45 AM
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I gave you three leads of people that breed the "pure" ones. It seems strange to call them pure since they are nothing more than an Oriental x Birmingham Rolldown cross with some other breeds thrown in by a few locals here and there.
Re-creating them was only a kind suggestion, no need for the snide remarks.
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Alan
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Sam
6 posts
Dec 05, 2005
11:09 AM
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Alan,
I thanked you before, but thanks again for the names! I am/was already aware of those breeders, all good.
However, I am asking for people that have first-hand knowledge of a breeder that has this breed & has kept them as they were originally.
uuuh..Can anyone help me out ?
Thank You
Sam
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Bill Latham
1 post
Dec 05, 2005
12:32 PM
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Hello Sam,
I see you are interested in accquiring original NAHF Rollers, that is wonderful, I am glad to see others wishing to fly and enjoy this breed, congratulations.
If you would kindly doubble click back and look at the top of this page you will see a string of numbers in sequence.
Please click onto the number "7", then look down a few lines until you find: "Which is better, birminghams or Americans?".
Click and read ... you will find some info written that quite possibly you may find, some what interesting.
There are two gentlemen I know who have exactly what you are requesting, Steve Roth and/or Chandler Grover. They both have the original Lester Manz breed of NAHF Roller.
The NAHFR family I have are only 77 years old, never have been outcrossed, only come in the colors of Red and Yellow, and have Mottle and White wings.
I know that Alan has a few pictures on his web site, as well as the NPRA web site of these rollers. You may also check here under the "Roller Articles" section ( just look on the left side of this screen)... something about chapters 1 & 2 something, blah, blah, blah.... I am sure you will find much more detailed information to help you on your journey.
I hope this genuinely helps you. Good luck in your search.
Best wishes,
Bill Latham
Last Edited by Bill Latham on Dec 05, 2005 12:35 PM
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Sam
7 posts
Dec 05, 2005
1:15 PM
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Hey Bill !
Thanks, I'll see if I can find those men !
Sam
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bernie
2 posts
Dec 05, 2005
1:49 PM
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Greetings Bill Latham!! Could you please e-mail me at MLLBRNML@aol.com??? I presently reside in somerset county in new jersey but as a child growing up in new york city, i knew an individual that flew rollers akin to yours. Thanks...respectfully..Bernie
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Sam
8 posts
Dec 07, 2005
1:24 PM
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Thanks Sid
Your opinion is _very_ important to me !
I am sure you are a very experienced flyer as you have posted on many of the above posts with lots of on-topic help !
Sam
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1-bad-57
1 post
Dec 07, 2005
5:27 PM
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Hi Bill, I have a few yellow whitesided rollers that I purchaced from a gentleman in florida. I really enjoy having them. They are probably my best breeders. I'm looking for a few more pair any leads or sugestions? Thanks Joe
Last Edited by 1-bad-57 on Dec 07, 2005 5:55 PM
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Bill from NJ
9 posts
Dec 07, 2005
6:56 PM
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1-Bad-57, (AKA; JOE)
I would recomend you try to contact:
Steve Roth
PO Box 18388
Corpus Christi, Texas 78480
Or try to contact:
Chandler Grover
thru NBRC directory
If you plan to visit near New Jersey and can pick up pigeons: contact:
Charlie Hubbs
thru NBRC directory
I hope this helps to get you started.
Bill from NJ
Last Edited by Bill from NJ on Dec 07, 2005 6:57 PM
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1-bad-57
2 posts
Dec 07, 2005
7:47 PM
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Thanks Bill for the info. Isn't it nice to just be able to enjoy the birds we choose to have and work with. Joe
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siddiqir
112 posts
Dec 08, 2005
9:25 AM
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I deleted my post as people take things too personal. It was just my opinion and what I have heard about those birds in past 5 years. For sure there was lot of smoke and I do want to see my computer screen to surf other website... :).
You do not have to strike too hard. I see your post got edited twice...you need to follow board rules. They are just birds. I am happy with mine and I am sure you are with yours.
Also, I was taking in GENERAL. I was not pointing to your birds...I apologize if I heard your feeling and yes American rollers are the best (better then B. Rollers). They're the nicest breed and we can talk about them
Last Edited by siddiqir on Dec 08, 2005 9:58 AM
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Leo
Member
61 posts
Dec 10, 2005
11:10 AM
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Allen and Bill, Please explain the AFRollers of Les Manz to me? The birds of Les Manz were Whittinghams, And on occasion,would use a Pensom in his loft, Pensom also was guilty of this,,,Charlie has the Manz birds and breeding them for mottles an whitesides,He also keeps a few Harter birds,I owned and flew the Manz birds, They are TERIFFIC rollers, but not Highfliers, I know Steve Roth and he has never referred to Manz birds as highfliers, Iam somewhat confused on the posts, please enlighten my thoughts ,,,,,thanks , Leo
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Bill from NJ
11 posts
Dec 10, 2005
11:51 AM
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Leo,
Would you please contact me off line at:
wlatham1@compuserve.com
I have lots of information I can send you about Les Manz, and Charlie Hubbs Birds.There are too many things in the works at this moment for me to discuss in an open public forum.
I have just written an historical account of Charlie Hubbs and Les Manz family of Pigeons. Everything I have is first hand from the mouth and pen of: Charlie Hubbs, Les Manz, Chandler Grover, Stan Plona, Arthur Karp and others.
Can you please include your Last name when you e-mail me, so I can run it by Charlie also?
Thank You in advance for your assistance and patience.
Bill Latham
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Bill from NJ
12 posts
Dec 10, 2005
4:47 PM
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To all:
I am sorry to keep some information private at this time regarding Charlie Hubbs and Les Manz pigeons.
There is an article being published in the NBRC and NPRA bulletins and I do not want to spoil the article. ie "tip my hand".
You can read about this family of birds very soon.
Thank you for your patience and understanding.
Regards... Bill from NJ
Last Edited by Bill from NJ on Dec 10, 2005 4:48 PM
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