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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Style or Velocity?
Style or Velocity?
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birdman
97 posts
Dec 12, 2005
9:50 PM
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I posted this question on another website and am interested to hear everyone's opinion.
Lets assume that you have a few extra birds that can be added to one of your kits. Some have good style, and some have good velocity. All birds roll from 20-30'.
Which group would you choose ?(you can't choose both)
1. The birds with high velocity but 'X' style roll.
2. The birds with slow velocity but 'H' style or better.
Style or Velocity?
Why?
(I'm not referring to potential breeders, only which birds you would select for your kit if you only had one choice.)
Russ
Last Edited by birdman on Dec 13, 2005 11:03 AM
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J_Star
144 posts
Dec 13, 2005
10:26 AM
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I will breed the X with the H. The offspring that exhibit the H style with speed I will keep. Then I will keep on breeding them selecting only those with the H style and speed. I will discard the original rollers.
I know that is not what you are expecting to hear, but that is what I will do.
Jay
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dmitch
27 posts
Dec 13, 2005
10:35 AM
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The birds with slow velocity and H style. Why?Because i can breed for more velocity.
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fhtfire
266 posts
Dec 13, 2005
11:07 AM
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I myself would choose the speed. If a bird is a little rocket..you can't really tell the syle unless they are right under you or facing you in a way that you can really tell the syle. Speed is something that everybody wants....just breed the rocket to a nice A style roller and see what you get. To be honest..I would not breed either....I would breed the total package....speed with H...But you said kit birds...I would take both...but would prefer the speed. Speed...and I mean rocket speed...can cover up an X pattern bird....I found that the faster birds roll with an H anyway....That was as clear as mud.
rock and ROLLL
Paul
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birdman
98 posts
Dec 13, 2005
11:07 AM
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Jay, if I were selecting breeders then we're seeing things the same, but for this question, it's only about which group you would choose to add to your kit if you could only make one choice.
Style birds or velocity birds?
Why?
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Shaun
221 posts
Dec 13, 2005
11:54 AM
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Paul, your observation reminds me of interviews with English flyers I read, some years ago. It was about viewing the birds side on. "Do you like to see the hole?" "Yes, I like the hole." or, "Not bothered about the hole; there should be a blur, nothing but a blur."
I think I've seen the hole once, purely because I happened to be looking at a particular bird side on. It came and it went so quickly, I wasn't sure - like a meteor. I thought - that was the hole - it was the hole; now, I see what they mean.
I think all of this means that wing patterns are all well and good, but the thing which turns most people on is jaw-dropping speed of drop. Velocity: it can hide a multitude of sins.
Shaun
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
294 posts
Dec 13, 2005
12:16 PM
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I'd put them all in there. An army contains many different types of soldiers.
If I can only choose one, gimme speed. Slow rolling birds give me nausea, regardless of their style. There is no substitute for speed!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Brian
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J_Star
145 posts
Dec 13, 2005
1:08 PM
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well, birdman, in this case I will choose speed. It is always pleasing to watch speed rolling. Style would be secondary at this point. I will combine both to get the best results for my future generations as I stated above.
Paul said he would breed neither because he likes his birds to have the whole package. To me, birds with the whole package are hard to come by day in and day out. Therefore, I will make them according to my liking. Then the offspring will be bred on and on to establish uniformity. I personaly like the A style to H or X. H is my second preference but the A is what I prefer most and breed towerd. Some might disagree but that is what I like to see in birds performace style.
Jay
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Shaun
224 posts
Dec 13, 2005
1:30 PM
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I can only assume that once you've seen speed regularly, and it no longer impresses so much, you can then evaluate style. But, I'm still at the stage where the style could be abysmal, but I wouldn't really know it one way or the other. Just watching a bird drop with a blur like a stone, for a few seconds, just knowing its going to hit the floor or a rooftop - yet it doesn't. It actually snaps out of it just in time and it's back to the kit in a jiffy. Well, that still gives me a hard-on!
Next year, perhaps, I'll be deliberating over H, X or () style.
Shaun
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nicksiders
316 posts
Dec 13, 2005
2:33 PM
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High Velocity........they seem to recover and re-kit faster than the slower birds.
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birdman
100 posts
Dec 14, 2005
11:36 AM
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Welcome back Leo. It's been a while since you've mixed it up in here.
Russ
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
586 posts
Dec 14, 2005
12:48 PM
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Russ. I got to have Speed.Anything else is sloppy to me. David
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
602 posts
Dec 22, 2005
7:17 PM
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I love the H style.Can,t say as I ever seen an A style.But in my opinion to get an H style the velocity is already there. David
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Mount Airy Lofts
56 posts
Dec 22, 2005
9:14 PM
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David,
I have seen some average velocity 'H' style rollers. I also might mentioned that I don't see alot of 'H' style rollers in general maybe about 10 or so over the years. When I say average, I mean a bird that would score 1.1 -1.2 in the velocity department. Altho I can clearly see the illusion of the locked wings, you can tell that it is not that fast. When they get fast, they tend to shink in size and almost start to blurr the wings out.
Anywho back to my experience, while the slower 'H' style rollers possess average velocity, they are as slick as silk in their stream line and just seem faster then what they really are. This also causes them to cut thru the air like a hot nife thru butter. To me, they are more pleasing to watch then a very fast 'X' style because they are poetry in motion. The 'X' style rollers I have seen tend to have alot of friction and seem to use try harder when performing.
Just my opinion tho,
Thor
P.S. I am not talking about a slow enough bird that you can count the rolls. These aren't rolls but tumbles in my mind.
P.S.S. An 'A' or 'V' style roller as I have been told by the experts as simply just a high winged 'X'. I have seen some super fast ones that start to shink and have heard guys favor this style over the 'H' or better style. Go figure tho. What do you guys think, is a 'A' or 'V' style simply just a blurring high 'X'?
Last Edited by Mount Airy Lofts on Dec 22, 2005 11:11 PM
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J_Star
150 posts
Dec 23, 2005
5:03 AM
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I don't understand why you say that the 'A' is just an 'X' with speed. The 'A' style rollers, the wings join each other from the joints to the end of the flight feathers making their roll look like a singular circular saw blade cutting thru the wind downward. It is so ball bearing smooth with speed. I have seen the three styles 'A, H and X', and no doubts when you see and X style, you know how lousy it is. But there is a difference between the 'A' and the 'H' style performance. The 'H' style rollers look like double circular saw blade cutting thru wind downward. The 'V' as you mentioned is nothing but an 'X' style in my opinion.
My interpretation to the styles is this, and please corrects me if I was seeing it in a different light:
Using the letters to demonstrate, think of the 'A' as where the top point of the letter is the wings joining each other while the bottom of the letter is the bird's body. The 'H' as the top and bottom of the letter is the wings placement while rolling and the '-' in the center of the letter is the body of the roller. The same is true for the 'X' where each side of the letter '> and <' are the wing placement while rolling and the center of the ‘X’ is the body of the roller.
From my own observation, the ‘A’ style rollers are not very common as the ‘H’ style in every loft. I also believe that Jay Starly breeds for that wing placement in his rollers and JoeBob, the winner of the WC 2005, bred some of Jay’s into his birds to implant that style of rolling into his. I don’t know if you folks seen the ‘A’ style often or not, but when I’ve seen it the first time, I knew that is what I would like to see in my rollers. It is just my preference due to the extra smoothness in the roll. Most likely, those blur birds you guys praise all the time, I think are ‘A’ style with exceptional speed, which makes the bird friction free thru the wind due to the wing placement and the speed they pack.
Jay
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merced guy
28 posts
Dec 23, 2005
5:22 PM
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J you got it down about describing the A styles. I prefer that style also as it is less common around this areas, people tend to favor the H style, but they are equally good and I wont mind having both. A is just a little up the latter for me I think. From the front or back it looks like a triangle and from the angle, not the side, I would say it looks better than the H becasue the H you will see the two little wing tip, but the A no space in between. I have a majority of those. although I wont put speed in the equation becasue ALL styles A, H, X, () are fast and slow depending on the family. but if you talk about two smooth H and A birds the A will look smoother.
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nicksiders
323 posts
Dec 23, 2005
6:01 PM
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H or A over X everytime
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birdman
102 posts
Dec 23, 2005
7:08 PM
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I'm hoping to hear feedback from some of the guys who have actually judged the flys.
Which would get higher points for quality?
1. speed with 'X' style
or
2. slower birds with 'H', 'A', or better style.
(I don't mean so slow that you can count every revolution, but just adequate speed)
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
302 posts
Dec 23, 2005
7:46 PM
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In all honesty, when I judge a fly, I am not out there looking for () rollers or dissecting where their wing positions are. There are a massive number of variables that play a part in what can be percieved as being quality or not quality. Color of the bird, color of the flights, angle of the rolls when a scorable break occurs, color of the sky, etc. At one guys house, the birds might fly straight overhead and therefore, some birds might look worse than if viewed from another angle. At another guys house, the birds roll off to the side and you see the side angle versus the frontal or bottom view. There are just a ton of things that play a part in the overall guess.
I keep it pretty simple and make it a point to make sure I count the birds that "appear" to be rolling properly and not dish ragging or fighting the roll. The bigger the break, the harder this challenge becomes. By the end of the fly and if the birds have flown at a decent height, I make an overall judgement call as to how many birds were rolling really nice and how many were just rolling. There is never a kit where every birds is dead on perfect. (though that would be awesome to see).
Personally, I don't care for axle rollers or A rollers. I have some A's and they just don't do it for me. Most of them are white flighters so it really stands out like a beacon.
It is a gut feeling. Sure some people don't want to hear that and want every judge to have some incredible ability to watch every bird roll in every break the entire time. We as humans are simply unable to do that. But most judges do the best they can with the abilities they have.
Russ, I'm sure that doesn't fully answer your question so I'll say that hypothetically if there were a kit of birds rolling X pattern and one where they all rolled H, and I could clearly see it without having to look hard for it, the H will get a better Q mark. But, if the X wingers were much faster (again, hypothetically all of them), then the Q would probably end up being the same. Because speed and style both count together in the Q, which is what can sometimes confuse some people when they read the marks. To me, speed takes #1 presidence. If they are H wingers and slow as turds, they won't get a high Q mark from me. In reality, I don't want to see their wing positions. I want to have the feeling at the end that what I saw was balls rolling, not feathered letters. I like them to be clean and fluid in the roll. If they are clean and fluid, they generally have pretty good speed. If they have fluid roll, their style will most likely be good as well. So what that style particularly ends up being is not quite as important to me as the rest of the variables that contribute to the impression of quality.
I also consider the quality of the breaks, to a limited degree, into the Q mark as well. If they are banging solid and every time they break, every bird is scoreable, regardless of what some might think the style is, I'll give that kit an extra .1 for quality, because the breaks were that impressive.
Comp flying is a team sport and therefore, when it comes to the Q factor, there are many, many more things that weigh in to the final impression than just the position of the wings.
If it is a number you are looking for. If there were a kit which all were H rollers rolling at good speed, I would give that kit at least a 1.5 before even considering the other variables I mentioned.
Brian.
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Mount Airy Lofts
57 posts
Dec 23, 2005
8:15 PM
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Jay,
Don't take any offense, I was just referring to what I was told by people I call experts in the hobby. I asked Clyde Davis about the 'A' style once and he stated it was merely an high winged 'X' with good velocity. My first thought was, what BS is this. But after thinking about Clyde's experience (and he is a breeder of some fine spinners), I rethought about it. I kept an open mind and can see how a high 'X' wing can become a 'A' style with enough speed. Speed being the major factor.
As Jim Schneider has done studies in the dynamics of the roll, it is pausable that an 'A' is just a high winged 'X'. All birds do mini strokes of their wings during their performance, this is a known fact.
Our eyes can only filter in so much for it's shutter speed. Just because when things start to blurr out, it doesn't mean that the motion wasn't there. I am still keeping an open mind that an 'A' style is just a blurring tipped 'X. Again, this is only my opinion. I came to this from chatting with the experts in the hobby. Maybe when you have time, holla at Clyde Davis. He is a straight up type person and will put anyone straight. (grin)
Merry Christmas,
Thor
Last Edited by Mount Airy Lofts on Dec 23, 2005 8:29 PM
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centralvalleylofts
24 posts
Dec 23, 2005
9:17 PM
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guys this topic is one in which each persons personal preferance. is put in their own views and expirience but like some have said it comes to pure instinct once you have seeen pure spin in its purest you will know. i have seeen H patterns with awlsome speed and depth smooth as silk and was an ace in the air. i would say that out of the 150 birds that i breed each year i only see may 10 that i would consider outstanding but maybe only 2 to 4 that are breeder caliber and maybe only 1 or 2 that are to be consider champions. but as for style guys follow your gut and you cant go wrong. just a thought.
your freind in ceres, cal. steve
Last Edited by centralvalleylofts on Dec 24, 2005 5:59 PM
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merced guy
29 posts
Dec 24, 2005
9:23 PM
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Brian, good post! especially from a judge huh? I just learned something! guess thats why I try to breed for both styles. If you are a judge and sees a good kit of H doing their best at one house, and then at another house you saw a kit of A rollers doing thier best, you would still give the H better Q? taking in that both broke and spin with similar velocity and depth---hypotheticaly. Do you just look for good hard rolling? wouldnt you be bias for one style over another? I like some info beeing a rookie and all. thanks in advance.
in the sport
thong
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J_Star
151 posts
Dec 25, 2005
12:14 PM
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Thor, no offense at all. I was trying to understand what you said in your post. I have 'H' and 'A' or '()' but my preference is that later. I like them both tho. Thanks for your candid response.
Jay
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Mount Airy Lofts
58 posts
Dec 25, 2005
3:36 PM
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I don't breed many 'H' s nor do I breed many 'A' s. The more common styles I see are 'W' s which I consider to be a upside down open 'A'. The 'A' style rollers when I do see one or breed one tend to be very fast but as I have been told by the veteran fliers, we are looking for 'H' or better.
If it is true that some one has a whole kit of 'H' s or half a kit of '(0)' then let me know because that will be heck of a kit. Even these kits winning the World Cup aren't filled with such caliber.
Here is an exert I would like to referrence: "It was my intention when the fly started, to award something to the best indvidual on show, the best roller in the World, unfortunately nothing I saw came anywhere near that, this in it self says a lot about the competition, what I saw was a lot of performing rollers, but nothing of real quality, every one that flew told me that their birds could be a lot better, so I did not see anyone's at their best, so I'm sure there are good quality rollers about, unfortunately I did not catch anyone on a good day, I've also had rollers long enough to know that 99 times out of a 100 they will let you down. - from World Cup Final Judge 1994 Rick Mee"
I know Rick Mee visits this site now and then but that says alot. I know Rick to have visited many, many lofts all around the world, so he know's quality.
I don't think 'H' s and better (0) are everyday birds. They come but RARELY.
If 'H' s are being bred more then 'A' s, then I don't know where they are. I believe I have seen a whole lot more 'A' s then 'H' s or better around my neck of the woods.
Here's just my opinion on wing style grade from lowest to highest quality: axle, 'X', high 'X', 'W' or open 'A', close 'A', 'H', '(0)', shinking base ball (wings blurring out), and best is the compete BLURR (which is a fuzz in appearance). Of course, everyone has their own ideal but those are mine. I have heard of guys claiming axles are champions but as you can see, it is the lowest in my preferrence... heck, I'll even stretch my neck out and say I plain out hate that style of birds. I have seen one here and there that can possess very high velocity but to say those are Champions is a super stretch of the truth.
If 'A' s are your ideal breed for it. Remembering that our birds are only as good as our ideals.
On a side note, here is Clyde Davis's classic article: http://www.geocities.com/khaos_thor/article/AOTM.htm
Merry Christmas
Thor
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merced guy
30 posts
Dec 25, 2005
4:45 PM
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Thor, you lost me on the A style man, what is a W? I agree about what you said about everyones ideals.
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birdman
103 posts
Dec 25, 2005
8:31 PM
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Brian, once again, a very good post!
When I started this thread I was really trying to split hairs on which was the more important feature of the Quality multiplier. Is it velocity, or is it style?
It seems that most favored the velocity of the roll, while a few favored the style. I was hoping a few more with judging experience would chime in with their opinion.
Now another question for the list:
Which bird would you breed from? The bird with the velocity or the bird with the style?
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
303 posts
Dec 25, 2005
8:37 PM
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Thong, if both kits were equal in average depth and equal in speed, I would give the H birds a higher mark than the A's. H birds look more impressive to me than A style birds. Thats not saying that A style birds suck, its just that an H pattern, if rolling fast, will look more impressive. Just like an () bird rolling at the same speed will look even more impressive than the H bird. This is just my opinion on what I like to see.
Brian.
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Mount Airy Lofts
59 posts
Dec 26, 2005
3:57 AM
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Thong,
All the 'W' s I have seen are cobby but built in type. In type, they resemble all the 'A' style rollers I have seen (not that many), just a little more builtwise. I don't know if there is such a style call 'W' but I know I have seen my share of them in the birds I am flying. Their wings lock at an illusion of a 'W', hence the name 'W'. I suppose it is simply just an open upside down 'A'. As you know, there are open styles and high styles. For example, open 'A' or high 'X'. Just imagine a open 'A' style roller rolling upside down. The 'W' rollers tend to give a side view of a 'U' instead of a circle for some reason. This illusion still evades my understandings. How does a 'W' from the front and back view give a 'U' from the side? Got me! Maybe when I can afford a high power camcorder, I can study it more indepth.
Any who, if you want to see photos of how all the typical 'W' style rollers I have seen or flown looks like in type vs. an 'A' style roller, I'll take a photo and post it on my website for you.
Hell, there are way too many styles our birds are capable of rolling to ever name all of them... plate, twizzler, axle, etc. In all honesty, there is only one true style everyone should be breeding for... and that is the best you have ever seen. That is why it is so important for all of us to travel to see as many birds in the air as possible. Once you see it, you won't settle for anything less. Velocity usually takes care of style. Ask these veteran competition fliers of over 30 years what they want in a bird's performance so you can see it first hand.
I think in todays time, it is harder to see an erial Champion in the air. Once the breeder knows he has bred his ideal bird in the air, it is stocked ASAP. If not, the chances of it being lost to the sky sharks are at their highest now then ever.
I'll try to take acouple of photos later today because we are suppose to be in the mid 30s. These type birds all most all ways turn out to roll with a 'W' style in my family of birds. Too bad I can't say that about the roll downs. If I had a way to spot them right off the bat like the 'W' styles, I would be one happy camper.
Thor
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merced guy
31 posts
Dec 26, 2005
8:24 PM
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Thor thanks for the imput, but I havent seen a W style bird. this is the first tme I have ever heard it. your W you said is a upsid down A? wouldnt that be just an X isnt an X two A's join together, think about it. The rest I have seen, but sorry not the W. i guess its just your way of describing it huh? thanks anyway. thoob
Brian, maybe when you come around my area, I should let my kit of H's out.... LOL.good info anyway.thong
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merced guy
32 posts
Dec 26, 2005
8:27 PM
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bird man,to answer you next question, I would breed for velocity birds, they jsut seem soooo fast even an X toller, the blurr might even fool a judge's eyes wouldnt you think, I mean if the bird roll smooth enough.
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J_Star
153 posts
Dec 27, 2005
4:50 AM
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What is the difference between 'A' and '()'? To me, they are the same. One is referenced by a letter, while the other as a symbol. It is easier to reference a letter while talking face to face with somebody than using a symbol. Unless we are talking about two different styles in performance?
Clyed Davis, I believe flies the same family of birds as mine unless I am mistaken him with somebody else. He flies Danny Horner's family. If that is the case most of his birds are 'H' style and occasionally he might get the 'A' or '()'. In my family, it is only the blue check W/F has that style. I don't know about you, but I have seen full kits of 'H' many times in many lofts. Remember it is what the breeder breeds for and keeps. You lost me with the 'W', but it’s ok. You mentioned Rick Mee, and I can not speak for him, although he doesn't say where his family originated, but I was told that he got his birds from Danny and mixed with Thompson’s. If that is the case, the majority of his birds are the 'H' style.
I have been around many judged flies, for the W/C and the fall flies. I noticed the judges after the breaks in the kit for the score, and for the Q they tend to concentrate on the majority of the birds that catches their eyes rolling. But it all comes down to this ‘the birds should be fluid and smooth as ball bearing spinning in their roll.’ If we agree on this statement, then we are seeing the same thing from two different corners. Otherwise, we just leave it at that. Very good discussion…Thanks.
Jay
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
304 posts
Dec 27, 2005
11:03 AM
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Jay, Clyde doesn't have Horner birds. He has up close Pensom birds. They are very different from what you are flying. () and not even close to being the same style. The A will be touching at the top and flared out at the bottom, often flared out a whole lot. () birds are tucked in tight and touching top and bottom, they look like a two plates facing each other comind down straight at you. I feel very fortunate if I raise but one of those in a year.
Brian
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J_Star
155 posts
Dec 28, 2005
4:43 AM
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Brian,
Very good. Please explain to me further what do you mean by the ‘A’ will be touching at the top and flared out wide at the bottom. Are they only touching at the end tip of the flight feathers? And what exactly is flared out? Do you mean by flared out as the wings starting from the back muscles stretched up to a point that the joints (in the middle of the wings) are not touching each other but close and the end of the flight feathers are only touching at the tips. I am just trying to picture it in my mind so I can understand the differences.
Birds with ‘()’, you said, are tucked in tight and touching top and bottom. Do you mean that the wings are touching each other starting from the back muscles to the end of the flight feathers or starting from the wing joints (in the middle of the wings) through the end of flight feathers are combined together giving the elusion as two plates facing each other?
Also, what is the difference between Davis birds and mine. Performance? Style? Aren't all such as Smith, Plona, Jacs and others origenated from the Pensoms? Please share some info.
Your input would be appreciated. Thanks.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Dec 28, 2005 4:48 AM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
305 posts
Dec 28, 2005
11:57 AM
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Jay, here is a gif of a bird rolling which shows how the wings flare at the bottom and touch near the top. This is because of wing stroke during the roll. Most of the H rollers I have taken shots of show they touch at the very top or actually just at little behind themselves. A style rollers appear to touch in front of their heads, which is what makes the A shape seem so easy to see. Their stroke is occurring at a different time in the rotation, therefore their "style" appears different, which it often is anyways.
http://www.pbase.com/bmc1/image/51389832.gif
Yes, () birds will appear to have their wings near touching at the bottom and top, which in a sense generally means they aren't moving their wings much at all, kind of a small "blip-blip-blip" at best.
In regards to Clyde's birds and yours. They are vastly different. Yah, all rollers go back to Pensom in some way or another. But that was a LONG time ago. In fact, Clyde bred and inbred close up to a few Pensom birds he liked and kept them that way. Your birds are Horners and they are completely different, being they are the byproduct of several layers of attentive breeding for specific traits, mainly those the early Pensom birds lacked to some degree. I don't have to see your birds to know them. I've seen and handled Clydes and seen them fly. Your birds are smaller and shorter. Your birds have smaller heads. Your birds are not as deep as some of Clydes, but your birds are far more frequent. Your birds feed different. Your birds prefer to fly at a lower altitude and at a slower pace. Clyde admits he has to do everything he knows how to keep his down in viewing range. He feeds his straight peas. If you feed yours straight peas you will put them in the dirt as young birds. The list could go on and on but I am sure you get the point.
Brian.
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birdman
104 posts
Dec 28, 2005
2:17 PM
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Nice pics! Never seen that one before.
It appears that the 'A' style roller may be doing a 1/2 stroke while rolling.
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T Duncan
1 post
Dec 28, 2005
6:01 PM
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This is my first input here but I think J is right on the A & H Leo is also right. I go on fly’s all over the city and I think LA has more roller people then any were else. I see more X then all others. I’ve seen fast X but H is faster. The more the wings come up the more speed you get. At lest that’s the way it works in my loft. In my loft I have X and H and A, but I have no ( ) which is the fastest. So the way I see it if you want style you get speed. T Duncan
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nicksiders
326 posts
Dec 28, 2005
7:50 PM
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I think T Duncan's last statement sums it up. You can't have style without speed. VELOCITY covers up a lot of sins and makes everything look good.
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Mount Airy Lofts
60 posts
Dec 28, 2005
8:54 PM
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Thong and Jay,
Yes, a 'W' style roller in my mind is simply just a high winged 'X' style roller with enough velocity to give the illusion of a locked wing. They are smoother then your average 'X' and I would consider then a tad bit better in my scale. That is the whole point why I see so many each year. I feel they are common here because they are of the high winged 'X' style. Maybe they got their screws on back ward and are rolling upside down to give this 'W' illusion.
That's why I think Clyde may have something about the 'A' style rollers being just a high winged 'X'. Think about it seriously because altho the old timers in this hobby are straight forward, most are light years ahead of us in their knowledge.
Do you have open 'A' and close 'A'? An open 'A' is the same thing as my 'W' style but just right side up. When you referrence the two in this light, they do fit in what Clyde is perching - which is they are simply just high winged 'X' style.
I will also note that altho the 'W' that are so common in the birds I am flying are fast, most of the 'A' style rollers are a tad bit faster. In my scale, 'A's are a notch higher in quality then 'W'. Just like 'H' are a notch higher in quality then 'A'. etc.
Once a roller gives an illusion of wings being locked in a certain formation, they are fast. The style which they possess enhances their velocity ability but as in all rollers, this is not an absolute. I can't explain it any more better then that. If your 'A' style rollers are the fastest you can breed them then that is pretty much it for your strain. Our birds either have it in them or not. If your 'A' are 'Blurring' out to the point that you want them, then you should be a happy camper.
Here are some photos of a 'W' rollers -
I am currently flying band number 2004 MFRG 511: http://www.geocities.com/khaos_thor/04MFRG511.html
A young cock bird my close buddy has in his team from the same stuff I have band number 2005 MFRG 605 - 20 footer of the 'W': http://www.geocities.com/khaos_thor/05MFRG605.jpg
A old cock bird that has been stock by my same buddy that I flew band number 2002 ML 098 - 25 footer of the 'W': http://www.geocities.com/khaos_thor/098.jpg
This is the fastest 'A' style roller I have ever seen in the air, it was flown by my same buddy and is currently stocked band number 2002 ML 011 - 60 footer 'A': http://www.geocities.com/khaos_thor/011.jpg
In person, all these birds are similiar in type. Almost all these cobby built rollers turn out to have the same style in the family I am working with. All most all the 'H' style rollers that I have seen in this family are of the long cast with long wings.
Just talking about rollers here,
Thor
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merced guy
33 posts
Dec 28, 2005
10:30 PM
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brian, cool pictures, never seen anything like that before. now I know what you are taking about after looking at the picture. is the bird on the right doing a () or H? A picture is indeed worth a thousand words, change my way of looking at the styles forever. if you have more pictures that can demo like that let us know.
in the sport
thong
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merced guy
34 posts
Dec 28, 2005
10:32 PM
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brian, cool pictures, never seen anything like that before. now I know what you are taking about after looking at the picture. is the bird on the right doing a () or H? A picture is indeed worth a thousand words, change my way of looking at the styles forever. if you have more pictures that can demo like that let us know.
in the sport
thong
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J_Star
156 posts
Dec 29, 2005
4:32 AM
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Brain and Thor, cool pictures and very good job explaining. But for the life of me, I never saw my birds’ wings beet like the pictures suggest. When they lock their wings up, they are locked up while spinning. As much as I watched them rolling from all directions from many depths, I never seen that wings movement like in those pictures.
I have some rollers, when they lock their wings up it is stretched all the way up and have others the wings are bent like ‘7’ while rolling. Any way, this has been a very good topic and discussion and I will pay closer attention to my rollers spinning to really determine their exact style. But as you said speed hides allot of the imperfection and it is possible that those things are hidden in their roll. Good job…
Jay
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
608 posts
Dec 29, 2005
4:54 AM
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Jay.What we are seeing with our natural eyesight and what really is happening are two different things.LOL.Fellows like Brian,Clay Hoyle and some others have proven with the modern day Cameras and Camcorders is that the rollers don,t lock their wings like we believed for years but actuall beat thru each roll.I have seen several clips of film that Brian has taken and slowed down frame by frame and it is amazing on what the wings are doing.I guess what we are actually seeing with are eyes is really an Optical Illusian.LOL.We better hope that in Competition they don,t film our kits and judge them by the film.LOL. David
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
306 posts
Dec 29, 2005
12:43 PM
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Dave, for the record, the gif movie images are the work of Clay Hoyle. I just took the frames and put them into motion. The still pictures are ones I've taken of my own birds.
One thing to note is that what we appear to see is seldom the real case. Every single footage I've seen of rollers have showed some wing beat to some degree. Most are more similar than most would imagine, including myself. I've never seen footage of a bird with it's wings locked in position, but I have seen birds roll that appeared to be locked. When you film them and slow them down, they are beating their wings to some degree. I think the ones that roll with () style are doing more of a "blip-blip" type of stroke covering a very small distance, maybe 15-20 degrees, something that is all but impossible to see with the naked eye. Of course, in the big picture this is somewhat irrelevant because what really pleases us is what we see in real time. I personally will always be more satisfied with seeing the illusion rather than the true specifics of what they are doing.
Brian.
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Mount Airy Lofts
61 posts
Dec 30, 2005
5:52 AM
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Brian M.,
A MEN to that!
Thor
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Mount Airy Lofts
62 posts
Dec 30, 2005
6:06 AM
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Jay,
It has been archived that our birds do mini strokes during their performance and will say that again. The locked wing illusion, is just that. Actually they are always beating their wings. Some are all ways trying to fix themselves during a roll and others have no problem at all. I believe our birds are all ways looking at their surroundings during their performance and slightly adjusting to what ever circumstances.
Thor
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J_Star
161 posts
Dec 30, 2005
12:05 PM
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Now I am somewhat or maybe all confused. I don't think fanciers when they describe the style of their rollers actually take pictures of them rolling then put the frames together. I believe that they observe their rollers in the air and determine the style of the roll each bird posses depending on the position of the wings while descending down.
I viewed my birds hundreds of time while rolling. They, also, roll when they are close to view them, not just 500' in the air but around 100’. I noticed that their head and nick is carried back between the wings and tilted to the left. The tail is also lefted up toward the wings giving the illusion that is formed into a ball. And all depends on the wings position whether set strait up or in '7' format, that would show the wings action. For that reason I don’t believe the birds see while rolling, rather they just measure their distance to the ground before descending and that is how we have birds that have the brains and good judgment to when and where and how deep to roll. Otherwise, we will not have any roll-downs if they see their surroundings while descending. Even we humans can not see clearly while spinning and obviously become disoriented.
If we are determining the style of our birds based on a frame by frame action taken by a camera, then the style possessed by our birds would vary from time to time giving the fact that their wings could be set in different positions during their flights depending on the length of their flight and how tired they become. The same is true if they were hungry or not when you fly them and the same if they were energetic or lazy when you fly them
I truly believe that whether they beat their wings or not during the roll has no measure on what the naked eye would see and the same is true for the judges eyes since they no different than yours and mine. It is the fluidness and the smoothness of the roll we all seek.
This is becoming really interesting topic for all and I hope that some of the experts in this hobby such as Richard A., Kenny B., Scott, Cliff, Paul F., Tony and others to contribute with their wisdom on how they view the styles of their birds and how they actually determine it. I am all ears to the wisdom of others as how they personally see it. Thanks.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Dec 30, 2005 12:11 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
307 posts
Dec 30, 2005
5:51 PM
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Jay, I don't want to sound like I am arbitrarily disagreeing with you, but if I understand what you are saying here correctly, then I will have to disagree a little.
I got the impression from your post that you believe you see the bird tucking its head back into the wings? As in to assume the wings are in the upwards position during the roll? The reality is the bird begins the roll by snapping its wings back to initialize the thrust, then the beating or stroking of the wing is largely always from the mid point down, or to say, in front of the bird. Like if you were to hold your arms out straight in front of you and clap your hands together. In reality, their head is never really obscured by the wings with the exception being those birds which open their stroke up so much the wing reaches the side.
Some rollers will bob their heads during the roll while many appear to nearly lock them in place. Some hold their heads out further in front while others will seem to tuck them back more, some do both at the same time..lol.
I believe that many of the birds that show a "hole" from the side are those with the head tucked backwards and the tail nearly touching the head.
With that in mind, I have often wonder like Thor about if the birds can see where they are going in the roll. So many times I see a bird pull out before hitting, or trying like hell to slam on the brakes to come out of the roll before bumping. I believe that most rollers can see, at least to some degree, where they are at in the air during the roll. There is a great photo in my gallery of a red check caught in the roll from the side and you can clearly see its eyes are open and able to see around, even though it was in a solid spin.
http://www.pbase.com/bmc1/kitting
I might add that one thing that to me lends credentials to the idea they can see in the roll is that when a kit is rolling deep, it is usually several birds, or the group as a whole. When the kit rolls short, they are all rolling short. I believe that with a good seasoned kit, they pull out of the roll when the others do, be that short or deep.
I believe even rolldowns and bumpers can see where they at in the roll also, they just don't have the control to stop the roll impulse. It is kind of like the dumb kid that runs into a wall. He can see the wall, but is too stupid to stop soon enough to not hit it..lol.
Brian.
Last Edited by MCCORMICKLOFTS on Dec 30, 2005 5:52 PM
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merced guy
35 posts
Dec 30, 2005
9:36 PM
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J, brain, thor--good post,
jsut like to ad what I think. Jay to explain the flap of the wings compare it to a hummingbird, have yuou seen anything like that on them nature shows on Discovery channel. look how the wings flap and they become blurr (hummingbird's wings). I also belive that rollers can see while in the roll, from my experience, I can tell because my kit box is surrounded by 100ft trees from all angle. My birds have to circle up when release and circle down its always difficcult from them. but when you have birds that spin down just above the tree tops and stop everytime before hitting it than you realize that they have to see in order to stop in time. now Im talking about birds that roll many from anywhere from 10 to 80 feet, but I will have to say, my rolldowns usually hit tree top becasue they cant measure their depth do to their mental incapabilities. they might see it, but jsut have too much roll to stop themslves thats what I meant. as for the other birds, only the hot ones will brush once in say like 20 flies. the good birds never hit the tree tops.
in the sport, thong
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J_Star
162 posts
Jan 03, 2006
4:42 AM
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Guys, very good post and very educating to all. Thanks for keeping it to the point.
Jay
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Mount Airy Lofts
144 posts
Mar 16, 2006
4:23 PM
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Thong,
I think most people will agree that rollers can see while performing. I know I have witnessed many times when a bird sticks it's head out to view it's performing neighbor. I have also seen many birds come close or even touch while performing. If they weren't looking, then they would of crashed.
I know for a fact that my birds will stare from time to time during their roll.
The technology is here. DVD Cam corders are being used to record and then reply at super slow speeds. I hope to get one soon myself and do my own studies.
Can you believe that many people in the past thought that our birds would simply just lock their wings, thuck their heads back, bend their tails in ward, and rotate? Man, we have come a far ways but one step forward equals two steps backward.
Some times I think I would be better off just knowing the basics. Fly, Prove out, Stock, and re do the steps.
Thor
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