|
The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
the history of cross breeding
the history of cross breeding
Page:
1
Mongrel Lofts
94 posts
Dec 14, 2005
6:18 AM
|
Hi RF,
Yeah, I saw some just this past week end. They look huge, but I haven't handled one in at least 10 years or more. They don't have the shape and contour of the flying type roller and are fat as pigs usually. They are, in fact, another breed of pigeons. George Reeve always wished they would call them Showlers, cause they weren't Rollers.
It's funny that they call them Pensom Rollers (maybe not, that name still sells evidently!) as they aren't and the old PRC is impotent except they still sell those bands.
At the time that type of bird made the scene, I about flipped because there was no way they could have been made from pure Rollers. There temperment, station, body shape and size/weight, changed over night AND suddenly, many had 15 tail feathers! Something I had never seen in any of the performance Rollers I had seen before that. At the same time this style of bird hit the scene, guys like George Reeve, Paul Vaughn, Don Hieggby, Henry Schuteis, and myself were no longer asked to judge (cuz we wouldn't pick that kind) but guys who had only been the hobby a few years and were straight show guys did the judging and picked them hand over fist. There never was any dual purpose about it, these were pure show pigeons and still are.
I'm glad it all happened though really. The Performance Roller hobby came away that much stronger because of it. The PRC, when I was putting out their bulletin, hit a high of 319 members in 1971. By the end of the 70's, they were down to a hundred and as I said, they are virtually extinct now. The URCA had around a 1000 members in the early 80's, last I heard, they had 200 or so. Guess that answered what was more popular, another show bird, or the finest performing pigeon in the world!!
Best wishes, Jim Petersen
Hey Jim,
Well said.. Looking at what cross breeding has done to the roller, just makes me sick.. There are times I feel like the tree that falls in the woods, Does it really make any noise if no one hears it? Pollution of the breed and pollution of the minds of the new guys starting in rollers is a huge concern for those of us that Love the Birmingham roller.
Jim, I would bet money that the first guys that started showing and then made that first cross to win a show, never would have thought the breed would end up like them freak birds they are today. I just wish the mad scientist would stay the *&&^%*& away from our Birmingham rollers. Thank goodness there were a few purist and die hard Birmingham roller men around to keep the breed intact and not crossed up on other breeds of pigeons!!!! KGB
|
Leo
Member
62 posts
Dec 14, 2005
10:00 AM
|
Jim,I remember all those guys names you mentioned,including yours. I recall a guy named Carl Silvey he was a judge in the :infancy; of roller shows,If you recall,he had a pr of lite grizzle birds band nos '88' and '198'they were common looking as any birds we are flying now,All of a sudden the Show Roller was born,,,OUT OF 88,,an 198,,These youngsters came with huge Backskulls nearly no neck,they were perfect show specimans,and 88&198 were the king an queen and produced the most sought after youngsters,in the roller kingdom.I always called this situation,,the biggest roller Hustle of all time, The money was flying,an 88&198 youngsters were at a premium. Good common sense will tell you these two birds could never, ever produced these {MIDGET MODENAS}known as show Pensoms,,,,THE DUAL PURPOSE ROLLER,,,,at this point let me say;this post in no way is to knock,,anyone,or discredit show birds,or show breeders,In fact i keep baldhead rollers ,most are perfect marked,but i cannot bring myself to breed them the desired size for show, The Baldhead breeders "fell into the show roller trap" LARGE. I remember one baldhead breeder saying;THE PENSOM BOYS ARE IMPRESSED;,,So i sit here with excellent Baldhead Rollers, Hopeing a new Baldhead club will emerge,I judged balds in 50s,I have the old Brick Reds,Velvet Blacks,Butter yellows,as us Oldtimers,called them.....
|
Leo
Member
63 posts
Dec 14, 2005
10:00 AM
|
Jim,I remember all those guys names you mentioned,including yours. I recall a guy named Carl Silvey he was a judge in the :infancy; of roller shows,If you recall,he had a pr of lite grizzle birds band nos '88' and '198'they were common looking as any birds we are flying now,All of a sudden the Show Roller was born,,,OUT OF 88,,an 198,,These youngsters came with huge Backskulls nearly no neck,they were perfect show specimans,and 88&198 were the king an queen and produced the most sought after youngsters,in the roller kingdom.I always called this situation,,the biggest roller Hustle of all time, The money was flying,an 88&198 youngsters were at a premium. Good common sense will tell you these two birds could never, ever produced these {MIDGET MODENAS}known as show Pensoms,,,,THE DUAL PURPOSE ROLLER,,,,at this point let me say;this post in no way is to knock,,anyone,or discredit show birds,or show breeders,In fact i keep baldhead rollers ,most are perfect marked,but i cannot bring myself to breed them the desired size for show, The Baldhead breeders "fell into the show roller trap" LARGE. I remember one baldhead breeder saying;THE PENSOM BOYS ARE IMPRESSED;,,So i sit here with excellent Baldhead Rollers, Hopeing a new Baldhead club will emerge,I judged balds in 50s,I have the old Brick Reds,Velvet Blacks,Butter yellows,as us Oldtimers,called them.....
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
585 posts
Dec 14, 2005
12:39 PM
|
Leo.I don,t think Jim Peterson belongs to this group.David
|
Leo
Member
65 posts
Dec 14, 2005
1:55 PM
|
David, if Mr Peterson named all those great fanciers,as he did , I found it reasonable to assume that he was the same Peterson i had heard of, Its really of no importance,any way..../.HEY RUSS, Thanks for the welcome mat...,
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
587 posts
Dec 14, 2005
3:10 PM
|
Leo. The post you replied to was written by Jim Peterson on EarlsList but it was posted here by Mongrel Lofts so anyone on this list could benifit from it too.I thought you might be expecting Jim to reply to you.I should have explained it in my other post but I was in a hurry.LOL. David
|
ROLLERMAN
6 posts
Dec 14, 2005
4:45 PM
|
seen my 1st show roller in 1960 at a fairfield conn show. birds looked like a roller except for the larger head. today i dont know what breed they are but ill bet you they would be lucky if they have 10% roller in them..
Last Edited by ROLLERMAN on Dec 14, 2005 5:02 PM
|
upcd
97 posts
Dec 14, 2005
9:35 PM
|
What do think they are crossing into show rollers? What do they cross into flying rollers?
|
Mongrel Lofts
95 posts
Dec 15, 2005
6:01 AM
|
What do think they are crossing into show rollers? What do they cross into flying rollers?
upcd,
The list is to long to answer really.. Here is what I can tell you for sure upcd. Go onto an all breeds pigeon page. Find some birds with exotic colors patterns or factors on their feathers. You will find roller breeders out there and those that now have those patterns in their rollers. How, because the roller was crossed on those breeds to get the color factors or pattern. Swift, swallow, oriental frill, ice pigeon, pheasant pigeon if it has a different color, factor or pattern to it, some roller guy is crossing it on rollers to try and add that color factor or pattern into rollers. On the genetic list, you will hear more about these crosses. A family of swifts has what they call a halo ring, or something like that. They were crossing these swifts a while back to bring the halo ring onto rollers. Its more about color factors and patterns than it is about roll.. Although they will say its about roll first..
I think Cliff Ball made a great point the other day, when he said, Me and Scott were talking about the breed as a whole, and him and a few others are only talking about the family of birds they are working with. I think this is correct. I am not talking about his family of birds. I'm talking about what is being done to the Birmingham roller now and in the past as a whole and as a breed. Mongrel Lofts
Last Edited by Mongrel Lofts on Dec 15, 2005 6:26 AM
|
Mongrel Lofts
96 posts
Dec 15, 2005
6:14 AM
|
I thought this was a very good article written by Joe Houghton. He bred a true family of Birmingham rollers and they are behind many lofts of Birmingham rollers here in the USA today..I thought it might make a good read and help some of the newer guys understand there are still Birmingham rollers out there. There are men today and men in years past that bred true to the Birmingham roller. Everyone in this country, is not breeding from crosses to other breeds for colors, factors or patterns. This was taken from Earls roller list.. Mongrel Lofts
If there is going to be a salvation of the performing roller, then those who believe in the importance of having such a breed need to band together, be vigilant , and outspoken. And perhaps most of all, lead by example.
Those who advocate anything different are within their rights, but it's not just that they advocate something different, they at the same time spread the crap that they're different but equal.
Interestingly, I've never known an advocate for performance ever say, or publish a statement that if they were to do it over, they'd cross in other birds, or breed for color or markings.
The sport has made some strides they should be proud of. Competition flying is wide spread, and well organized. But, to become complacement, or not engage in self criticism, and attempt to implement changes for the better is surely the road to doom. Like an infection, these less than best pigeon keepers are just waiting for an opening to spread their message. The original NBRC was the vehicle and victim of the dual purpose clan, and it ended up with the destruction of the NBRC. The National Birmingham Roller Club, through it's name alone, should signify that it supports, and promotes the Birmingham Roller. A breed of performing pigeon, who's performance was recognized and acknowledged to be of a higher quality than that of other breeds previously known. The fact of the matter is, the Birmingham is a result of breeding various performing types, that resulted in a breed superior in it's performance ability to those from which it was developed.
As breeders of this type, it is our obligation to maintain the standards that identify the breed, to not succumb to the suggested short cuts and lessoning of those principles that make our chosen breed stand out above all others.
Like Mr. Callahan, and others of our age and experience, this is not new to us. We've seen it before, and were attempting to give a word to the wise. Joe Houghton
Last Edited by Mongrel Lofts on Dec 15, 2005 6:28 AM
|
Leo
Member
66 posts
Dec 15, 2005
8:09 AM
|
Some yrs back,a gentelman in Indiana, had been showing his rollers,and could never win 1st place,He had been told his birds were too small,,,,He had been fighting with his club to keep the size down on the show rollers,to no avail,,,he was frustrated,angry,an disgusted, he decided to give the club what they wanted,,,He mated a white modena to a white LFCL tumbler,'results were fantastic'...The bird was better than he expected,SOOOO,,,off to the show he went,,Would "you believe" He won 1st,BEST OF SHOW...he won FEED and several other prizes, SO now was his chance to get even, an get his POINT across...With his white Champion in one hand and his Trophy in the other he proceeded up the stairs and on to the stage,,The hall was becoming Quiet,,He knew he was living his 15 minutes of fame"""He spoke loudly;;TO ALL YOU ROLLER BREEDERS...TO ALL YOU JUDGES...[he holds the white bird up]..YOU HAVE SELECTED THIS ROLLER...BEST OF SHOW>>>>THIS BIRD DOES NOT HAVE ONE DROP OF ROLLER BLOOD IN IT,,BUT THIS IS WHAT YOU WANT...I WILL NOW DROP OUT OF THE CLUB..I WILL NEVER SHOW ANOTHER ROLLER,,,he then tossed the white bird in the air,HE then walked out...With all this effort,the rollers are LFCL Tumblers with a longer beak,their even loose feathered like tumblers,Nearly every performing species have been ruined ...for a 3 dollar tpophy..AND THE BEAT GOES ON...
|
old guy
1 post
Dec 15, 2005
3:11 PM
|
Interesting topic-roller size. I am a former biology teacher and have dabbled in genetics from time to time. The change in show roller size has been relentless but much more gradual than one might think. the offspring of 88 X 198 would look like puny wimps against todays birds. I showed rollers for 35 years and have seen first hand the increase in size. While I can't and won't say there has been no crossbreeding I can say in never happened in my loft. My biggest challenge to stay competitive was to keep up with the size of my birds. That said, you would be amazed what the power of selection for a single trait can have if it is a genetic goal. I no longer keep show rollers and have only flying birds. I am sure that I have enough genetic variability in my jacs that if my only goal was to produce a 16 oz. flying roller I could do it in 10 years of selective breeding. By the way does everyone realize the amazing change that has taken place in flying rollers in the last 30 years? I bet they are on average one third smaller over this time. Not by crossbreeding.
|
nicksiders
318 posts
Dec 15, 2005
6:18 PM
|
I agree with you about the changes in size for the air birds. They are much smaller than they were just 10 years ago. They are also more frequent and higher velocity. I don't know if the smaller size was the total influence or there are other factors.......?
|
ROLLERMAN
7 posts
Dec 16, 2005
4:15 PM
|
WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK. OF ALL THE INBREEDING THATS BEEN GOING ON FOR YEARS. COULD THAT BE A REASON FOR SMALLER BIRDS. SOME GUYS HAVE HAD THE SAME BIRDS FOR OVER 30 YEARS. THEN THEY SAY THERE GETTING SOME NEW BLOOD IN THE LOFT AND GO OUT AND GET THE SAME BLOOD.. STIIL MAKES THEM RELATED.
JUST WONDERING
|
Leo
Member
67 posts
Dec 17, 2005
8:46 AM
|
Rollerman,excellent point,I breed birds of 1968 from Smiths Fabulous 1232,,[$350] Line.In my many years of keeping records,i even keep records of Long GONE birds i never even owned,,,,To answer your thought,on same line here is an example;I have a 514 hen,going back on her papers, 514,shows up 13 times,,each time to a different cock,so any outside line would ;fit right in;...With that being said,,514,was mated to her nephew,result;;;The finest cock ever bred in America,,the fabulous..119..quote..Wm H Pensom...I acquired a hen that was out of 2564 a son of 119,,now i have a 119 line, top an bottom,,or what i called ;boxed;..119..I will always stay with the [ OLDLINE ]PENSOM rollers,Before i would go to an outside line,I simply go,,514,,to 1232,,anyway this is ;good stuff; and a great,great..artform.......
|
Mongrel Lofts
97 posts
Dec 18, 2005
2:18 AM
|
Hey guys,
I don't know if you guys really understand what cross breeding is. We no longer have to worry about guys crossing famillies of rollers. This is what cross breeding means today..
Frill stencil (fs) is an autosomal recessive mutant gene and found predominantly in the Oriental Frill pigeon (some breeders have succeeded in transferring the frill stencil gene to other breeds, e.g. Rollers and Homers). It is found in two patterns~the blondinette, which is self coloured and the satinette which is saddle marked with coloured tail. Blue, brown, recessive red and their corresponding dilutes are represented, I am not sure if ash-red is present in the genome.
The recessive autosomal status of the fs gene makes it a complicated and lengthy process to transfer the mutation to a different breed. My method to date has been, after the initial blondinette cross, to breed brother to sister thus producing an f2 bird with fs expression i.e. lacing or spotting in tail and primary feathers with variable amounts of bronzing in the secondaries. The f2 homozygous frill stencil bird is then mated to a roller, the resulting f1 fs heterozygotes are then mated together to produce another f2 homozygote. This process will continue until the desired roller type is produced. None of the homozygous frill stencils produced to date have had the degree of lacing the original blondinette possessed but according to contributors to Pigeon Genetics, News, Views & Comments, once type has been established then selection for lacing and/or spotting can be employed.
Last Edited by Mongrel Lofts on Dec 18, 2005 2:19 AM
|
upcd
98 posts
Dec 18, 2005
3:23 AM
|
So are you saying that they are out cross breeding for the color and inbreeding to pruife the breed?
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
590 posts
Dec 18, 2005
3:58 AM
|
Kenny.You lost me after the first paragraph.LOL.These fellows must have a Dr.or a B.S. from college in front of their names.I still have trouble getting Sex Linked matings figured out.LOL.But I do like to dabble with colors that someone else has already fixed in rollers.But you already know that.hehe
Have you started your 2006 breeding yet? David
|
Mongrel Lofts
99 posts
Dec 18, 2005
8:51 AM
|
Have you started your 2006 breeding yet? David
Hi David,
No, I won't start breeding until around March. It is cold around here below zero often and days upon days of below freezing for the high.. My lofts are of simple construction. Pigeon lofts!! LOL
I miss breeding early at times, but you get used to it.. How about you,you got them going already?? Mongrel
Last Edited by Mongrel Lofts on Dec 18, 2005 8:52 AM
|
Shaun
227 posts
Dec 18, 2005
9:02 AM
|
Hello, Kenny, from an equally cold England. I've a few pairs of those Masons getting it on right now, but the rest just can't be arsed. So, it's all a bit hit and miss. I'm actually building a new loft right now, in readiness for all the youngsters, but the cold is getting me down - I long for spring, but that's months away.
I've just written to George for his advice on pairings; let's see what he advises me to do.
Tell me, my friend, what's your aversion to winter breeding; you just might put me off!
Shaun
|
Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
591 posts
Dec 18, 2005
1:07 PM
|
Kenny.I have some started.I am going to concentrate on just 3 cocks and 12 hens for my kit birds this year.Got a round from the one cock & 4 hens under fosters and hope to have the others going before Jan.1st.
The past 2 years my early young have turned out to be the best rollers overall.I think it is because they have come into the roll before the weather gets so hot.Might just be in my head too.LOL.
I am still flying a bunch from 2005 so I don,t plan on raising as many this year.And of course I didn,t sell my 2 best kits this year so I still have them to fly.Its not bad flying 5 or 6 kits when its nice out but when the temps are in the teens it hurts these old bones.Havn't decided if I am going to fly in the WC Fly this Spring yet.I probably will just to support the Region.It will be an experience thats for sure.LOL. David
|
Post a Message
|
|
|