SlipSpur
17 posts
Jan 06, 2006
7:14 PM
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Don't laugh or get mad, this is going to just be a question. In the world of gamefowl, if yer strain lacks something, ya make an out-cross to improve. I've read several horror stories about whole Roller kits getting blown away and never coming back.
Here's the question... if Rollers get lost a few blocks away and Homers/Racers can find their way home from 600 miles away... what would an out-cross of the 2 produce? Has it been done successfully? What percentage could the Homer/Racer blood be diluted down to and still retain some degree of homing ability? Just a thought, not trying to stir up anything.
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Mount Airy Lofts
69 posts
Jan 06, 2006
7:32 PM
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I believe any such cross would revert the breed back to its WILD form. Which means, it heads toward the commies side more then the Homer or Roller.
I have problems with losing birds on over flies. Altho I think I have a found a line that has good homing ability along with the goods in the performance department. I have them down as all ways one of the first to return on all the over flies I suffered.
I am learning towards never to breed out of a bird that was lost (gettting them back only to call backs).
I think there are lines out there that has great homing ability. I have seen such a line here but as in ever strain, it has a fault. It is our job to mold any strain into what we want in a family. Crossing breeding is out of the question.
Your birds all ready have it in them, if not then we find another that does.
Just my opinion,
Thor
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upcd
127 posts
Jan 06, 2006
7:46 PM
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Hello, By accident homer and roller bred the offspring was pretty and got home but no roll.
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SlipSpur
18 posts
Jan 06, 2006
7:50 PM
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Those over fly posts bother me, I live in central Oklahoma and the wind almost ALWAYS blows here. I was outside the other day, it was beautiful, I was thinking how nice it would be to have a kit raised and flying... about then the wind came outta the southwest at 40+ mph with higher gusts, blew solid for 24 hrs. You can guess what I was thinking then.
upcd, do ya think ya could of gotten the roll back if ya went back further to the roller side?
Last Edited by SlipSpur on Jan 06, 2006 7:53 PM
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nicksiders
332 posts
Jan 06, 2006
8:14 PM
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If you cross a racing bird to a roller bird what are you going to call it? Create a new name for the breed and I will say it is OK. Call it a roller and I say it is not OK.(but, who am I?)
I don't like spiking the tea..........it (the roller) has already been bastardized at it roots (in England).
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SlipSpur
19 posts
Jan 06, 2006
8:19 PM
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I ain't going to try it, it was just a thought... if I did, I guess I'd call'em Wind Walkers ;>)
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
323 posts
Jan 06, 2006
8:31 PM
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One has to remember that maybe 25 percent of a racer's annual flock of young birds make it home after a season. Bunches and bunches of them get lost. A friend of mine is hard core into racing and told me not too long ago that he will loose a good many in the short young bird training tosses and in the first two races. After that the number of losses tends to decrease as the birds with less homing ability simply weeded themselves out.
It is my understanding that all pigeons possess a metallic substance in the waddle area which is said to contribute greatly to help the birds use the magnetics of the earth as a navigation system. Where the difference comes in I feel is that pigeons such as racing homers have been bred selectively for birds that possess a trait to be able to find home, and find home fast!.
Rollers on the other hand have not been selectively bred for their ability to home, thus they most likely have lost a great deal of their ability to utilize the information their navigation system is trying to tell them.
Another thing to note is that even racing homers must be "trained" to develop and use their navigational instincts. I liken their ability to navigate as something similar to our rollers willingness to kit. They yearn for it. If you take a six month old homer that has never been off the property and release it 10 miles away, chances are pretty good, it isn't coming back.
I don't feel that crossing rollers with racing homers would solve overfly problems. From what I have been told many times is the andalusian we have in rollers today was made from a cross with a racing homer. Did that cross eventually produce rollers many, many generations on that retained good homing ability? I seriously doubt it.
One of the biggest things that can contribute to whether or not your birds can return from an overfly is their state of fitness. Stronger birds can make it back. Weak ones simply cannot. Birds that are rolling a whole lot, tend to be weaker. I know of some families of rollers that are just plain dumb as stumps in terms or homing ability. They couldn't find their way home from two blocks away. I had a roller hen I loaned to a friend to breed out of. He had her for six months and she got out on him. She was back at my house, more than 15 miles away, in about 4 hours. That is in reality, not the norm when it comes to rollers.
Some rollers have it, and some don't.
I feel that as long as a guy doesn't fly his birds in some crazy conditions, and has the golden opportunity to select for birds that perform correctly, and just happen to be pretty good at not getting lost, he could easily generate a family of birds that could possess a decent level of homing ability.
Since we are at the beginning of a new breeding season. Here is something for some of you to try. Once you get your squeakers trained and flying. Start taking them down the street to release them. Take them a little further each time. As they grow stronger and begin to get used to being released from home, they learn to use what navigation ability they have. It is very, very similar to how racers train their young birds. They allow them, or teach them to "course" which is to fly around the neighborhood, getting visual and magnetic bearing on their home. Since rollers have been bred to keep an eye on the kit box (home), you will have to supplement the course training by releasing them a little ways from home.
Commies learn in the same fashion. The young birds are taken out, or follow the older birds and consequently, learn their way around, learn where to look for food and where the roost is.
Liken it to a person who possesses an artist ability. If that person never cultivates or learns to use it, it will be of no use.
Finally, I will add that much of the losses that occur for some people are due to their geographic landscape. If you live in a neighborhood of a thousand tile roof homes and a bunch of trees, a bird that hasnt had to tap into his homing ability is going to have a very hard time figuring out where home is.
Brian.
Last Edited by MCCORMICKLOFTS on Jan 06, 2006 8:35 PM
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ROLLERMAN
20 posts
Jan 06, 2006
10:31 PM
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many years ago i gave a young man from manchester nh, 10 birds out of a hold over kit all whittinghams. he had them about 4 days and one day he feed them and forgot to lock the door well any way the door blew open and out went the ten birds. he told me they went up and up and up and gone. the next day there was 9 of them birds sitting on the loft. and thats a 125 mile trip. . i think the key to there getting back was they got way up there.
al
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Newflyer
37 posts
Jan 07, 2006
1:29 PM
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Hey Slip....Iam not laughing nor am I mad with your question. This past summer I had my young bird kit out and a team of Racers circled around above. My rollers were circling higher above the racers in the opposite direction. This went on for at least 5 minutes. The racers then went off in a different direction and my Rollers still continued to circle around their home area. I was told once that the rollers know the difference between themselves and the racers and would NEVER hook-up with a team of racers. Secondly... I agree with all of the above about the cross of a roller and a racer.....BAD COMBINATION
Just my thoughts on your question
Fly High and Roll On
Paul
Last Edited by Newflyer on Jan 07, 2006 1:31 PM
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nicksiders
337 posts
Jan 07, 2006
5:07 PM
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There is a tippler flyer within just 4 or 5 blocks. The kits look at each other, but I have yet to lose one to them and I have yet to get one from him. I think they recognize that they are two different families and have a strong reluctance to leave those they are familiar with. I don't think they recognize each other as different breeds(LOL)
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Mount Airy Lofts
70 posts
Jan 07, 2006
6:47 PM
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My birds fly erratic or skittish when any new breed of pigeon joins them. There is a feed mills around the block that attracts alot of commies and lost homers. Every so often, these commies or homers would join up with my birds. Every time, the birds would react similar to a sky shark attack. Don't know why but they don't take well to how these commies and homers fly. The birds all most all ways scatter if the bird or birds continue to fly with them.
Altho, I have heard horror stories of guys losing whole young kits due to a team of homers flying thru taking their young birds off with them.
Every one experiences over flies. Any one who says other wise is full of it. It happens and we move on.
Thor
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Velo99
188 posts
Jan 10, 2006
4:45 AM
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I had an overfly day before yesterday. Weather change got me when a front blew in earlier than expected. An hour after sunset I had 6. when I closed the trap at 10:00 I had 9. I woke up and could hear the wind blowing pretty hard. I was thinking bye bye birdies. I called my wife thru the day checking in. My wife was watching yesterday as they trickled in. Last count was 18 of 20 at 10:00 last night.Maybe the last two will come in today.
There is till hope for the cup, My last two extra birds are gonna have to step up.
YITS
V99
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Phantom1
76 posts
Jan 10, 2006
5:35 AM
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Hey Slip - a buddy of mine back in West Texas did that actual cross to see what he could improve on. He was having the same problem as you mention. Constant over-flies on perfectly clear days. Here's my two cents based on his progress. Homer X Roller = Roamer. Get it? The crosses were junk. If one was really have that much trouble with their rollers not homing, I would think it's time for that flyer to pursue a new family of birds or look for the one or two that's dragging the kit away.
Eric
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fhtfire
281 posts
Jan 10, 2006
8:22 AM
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I agree with the last post...not a good idea to cross anything with a Roller and if your birds do not home...get another family. I had a lot of families that I started with and never really had a problem with homing. Some youngsters get lost every now and then...but that is because they are youngsters. Even young homers get lost..The truth is....you should never breed from a bad homing roller anyway....because if they are bad....they never come back....so you do not have to worry about it...LOL!!!! Right!!!!
rock and ROLL
Paul Fullerton
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SlipSpur
20 posts
Jan 10, 2006
9:20 AM
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I have yet to fly any birds, just gettin started in Rollers. We have nine pairs from 2 different lofts, I'll breed them seperate for now to see where the best birds come from. I may not have too much problem with over-flys, we live on a highway with wheat fields front and back. We have trees and neighbors on each side but we are on acreages and they aren't close. I'm going to build our Kit boxes out back in the chicken yard, out from under the trees. We have an L shaped building for the chickens thats 8' deep ( like a loafing shed ), on the north side it's 100' long and the west side is 80' with 27' outside runs... I think it'll stand out like a beacon for the birds. Our biggest problem is going to be the " sky sharks ", we have several right now... from Sparrow Hawks to Red Tails.
What caused me to pose the question in the first place was something I read on someone's web site about Roller type, they said something to the effect of " Rollers should look like a small Homer "... I read that about the time I was figuring out what an over-fly was.
I'm really enjoying the Rollers... I get to learn something new ( had chickens 30 year, show bantams and gamefowl ). I do know from past breeding experiances that if ya want the good stuff, ya gotta work yer way into them... but get the best ya can to start with.
Mark
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Mount Airy Lofts
76 posts
Jan 10, 2006
4:00 PM
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Mark,
Don't count over flies out just because of where you live.
I am flying from similar surounding and suffer at least a over fly a year. This may be because I am still trying to find the right mixture of feed or it could be because my birds have poor homing. My birds were bred for rolling abilities and not homing so this could be the reason. Altho if you asked me what I really thought was causing these over flies, I would say that it is a combonation of a passing thru cold front and the lake effects. There are about 6 lakes in about a two mile radius and that doesn't even include the tens of ponds. They don't call Minnesota the land of 10,000 lakes for nothing.
There are all so one wheat field, a couple of hundred arces of corn fields and a Interstate Freeway where I fly. I have gotten call backs from people living right across the Interstate.
I don't think you can rule out over flies when you are dealing with a high flying breed like the Birmingham Roller.
Thor
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SlipSpur
21 posts
Jan 10, 2006
10:24 PM
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I don't have to worry about lake-effects, I'm in central Oklahoma... closest lake is a little red mud puddle about 12 miles away. I know it'll happen ( over-fly ), I'm just hope'in for the best... it's flat here, they should be able to see our place for a long ways.
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J_Star
176 posts
Jan 11, 2006
4:47 AM
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Over-fly happens. I was the last person to think that it will never happen to me. And guess what, it did last spring. You think the weather is so nice to fly the birds, but in reality, above in about 500' and higher there is a wind current that you don't see that will left the birds up to a point that you no longer can see them. It will keep them up and will not come down. In some instances they will lose their sense of direction and get lost. So after a rainy day, watch the parameter, and if it is 30 and rising then don't fly your birds. Best to fly them is when the parameter is under 30. Over-fly is a fact and should be considered at every fly you do, just like the sky sharks are considered. So if you have a bird or two that are worth stocking, then consider stocking them earlier.
Best of luck...
Jay
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