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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Color or Not Color, that is the question
Color or Not Color, that is the question
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nicksiders
340 posts
Jan 10, 2006
12:33 PM
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I am finding that there are colors some breeders feel is a "color roller" others do not and it is confussing me(I am quickly confussed). I will list all the colors I am aware and you tell me if that is a "color roller" or not. Some will be obvious to most of us and some will not.
Rec. red
Ash red
Brown
Yellow
Blue
Black
Silver
Almond
White
Andalusian
Opal
Lavender
There other factors that may be considered as color breeding or not:
Barless
Mealy
Baldheads
Badges
Beards
White flights
White tail
Spangle
Mottled
Tort
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J_Star
175 posts
Jan 10, 2006
12:46 PM
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What happen to the lace, toy stincle, pincile and Qualmonds?
This is my take on this color birds:
Rec. red no
Ash red no
Brown no
Yellow yes
Blue no
Black no
Silver no
Almond yes
White no
Andalusian no
Opal yes
Lavender no
There other factors that may be considered as color
breeding or not:
Barless yes
Mealy no
Baldheads no
Badges no
Beards no
White flights no
White tail no
Spangle no
Mottled no
Tort no
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Jan 10, 2006 12:50 PM
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fhtfire
282 posts
Jan 10, 2006
1:10 PM
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I agree with Jay, Except...I am no color breeder...but I think that an Andalusian was made by bringing in another breed? Brian M. could most likely answer that one.
rock and ROLL
Paul Fullerton
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
329 posts
Jan 10, 2006
1:11 PM
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This is easiest if one clarifies (original) or (introduced). I'll put an O or an I next to the colors for you.
Rec. red--O
Ash red--O
Brown--I
Yellow--O
Blue--O
Black--O
Silver--O
Almond--O
White--O
Andalusian--I
Opal--O
Lavender--O..if you are referring to spread ash red bar. Milky spread blue is genetic Lavender,and that would be Introduced.
There other factors that may be considered as color breeding or not:
Barless--0/I, I don't have enough info to determine my position on barless in rollers. It technically should be Original as every other pattern marking is in rollers, barless probably was too. No reason to exclude it.
Mealy--O..(this is ash red)
Baldheads--O
Badges--O
Beards--O
White flights--O
White tail--O
Spangle--O
Mottled--O..Same as spangled or grizzled
Tort--O
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Phantom1
77 posts
Jan 10, 2006
1:23 PM
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I'm cracking up!!!!
Okay Silver is okay (Dilute of Blue), but Yellow is not (Dilute of Ash Red). So if you mated a Silver-Check Cock to an Ash Red-Check hen and got Ash Red Check Cocks that carried Dilute and they in turn popped out a Yellow Hen, it would be color bred. Okay...????
Brian,
Where did Brown come from? You noted that it was introduced. Curious to know from where it came, what was used, and how long ago it occurred.
Eric
Last Edited by Phantom1 on Jan 10, 2006 1:40 PM
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highroller
87 posts
Jan 10, 2006
2:08 PM
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Kind of lost me on the yellow being color bred too.
Red was listed as not color bred and so was blue/black. Silver, the dilute of blue/black was not color bred but yellow, the dilute of red is??? how do ya figure that?
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Agent526
4 posts
Jan 10, 2006
2:33 PM
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Any color that came from another breed is a color roller. Meaning if a starling was introduced to get black white bars then that's a color roller.
Secret Agent
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
331 posts
Jan 10, 2006
3:03 PM
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Eric, generally speaking, brown came about somewhere, sometime in pigeon history, just like other colors. As far as rollers go, I have never read anything that indicated brown as being included in the description of rollers when they were imported here, nor in any description that conveyed what the colors and patterns of rollers as written way, way back. None of the breeds of performing pigeons that were derived from the same general source that the BR was conceived, to my knowledge, possessed the brown gene until it was introduced later in history, mainly here in the states.
All of that said, that doesn't mean it wasn't possible, just that no information I have read indicated they existed in that general flying/performing pigeon gene pool. The brown gene, especially when bred selectively for, can create birds of weak character and health. It is just the way it is with brown and possibly has something to do with why I have never read anything that stated they actually did exist in the roller gene pool.
Again, that doesn't mean it didn't exist. But my opinion is that the brown gene didn't exist in rollers when they came to this country.
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Ballrollers
210 posts
Jan 10, 2006
3:04 PM
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I see the pigeon police are cruisin' the sites! Just what we need... Oh, by the way, you forgot Indigo, which was introduced, and Reduced, which was an original mutation in rollers, I believe. Yellow definitely does not qualify as introduced and should be re-classified as original. And as has already been posted, dilutes need to be classified the same (yellow and silver and khaki). Nice try, Secret........but the problem is that we are not exactly sure of some of the origins and whether they were original mutations or were introduced. The problem is that there is no consistency in the sport. To some men, spread, dilute and grizzle represent "color rollers"; i.e., everything except basic bars and checks in blue and red. this is ludicrowus, of course, but it confuses the issue. To other men, it is breed out-crossing to get the color or factor that defines a color roller. A lot of it is just slang and varies with the individual, his philosophies, and what he has decided to accept and reject in rollers. YITS Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Jan 10, 2006 3:18 PM
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Phantom1
80 posts
Jan 10, 2006
3:18 PM
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Brian,
Good points regarding the Brown Gene. One of the first Browns I raised was out of a Blue-Bar Cock. I had no idea he carried it.
Eric
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
332 posts
Jan 10, 2006
4:40 PM
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Cliff, technically the silvers and yellows should fall under the category of "dilute" which would fall right along with "reduced", both of which are modifiers rather than colors. Indigo was definitely Introduced.
Brian
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Ballrollers
212 posts
Jan 10, 2006
4:45 PM
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Right on. Thanks for the clarification, Brian. Cliff
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motherlodelofts
527 posts
Jan 10, 2006
6:26 PM
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Cliff wrote :
To some men, spread, dilute and grizzle represent "color rollers"; i.e., everything except basic bars and checks in blue and red.
Who are these men Cliff ? never have I known anyone to believe what you wrote above , the breed carries a whole host of colors , then you have those that were brought in by other breeds which are considered color birds or "rare" colored, some of which were named above, Almond is kind of up in the air depending on the source, most Almonds around the country came from the Oullets in which an Oriental was used.
Reduced mybe maybe not, the way the story goes it was taken out of some kids loft ,but is that a true story or not I don't know .
I have an old artical here from Baker that says that they ween't very good and then he brought them up by crossing them into his own birds.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jan 10, 2006 6:32 PM
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Ballrollers
214 posts
Jan 10, 2006
7:26 PM
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Scott, I am referring to statements by Bill Watson, KGB and Thor, among others, who have recently referred to dilute birds as color birds on Earl's List, and to the need for culling these birds as well as those with grizzle factor. We are into a semantic thing because I am not saying that they were referring to these as breed outcrosses, but referring to the error of breeding decisions based on colors and factors which they apparently believe are birds that are weaker in character and/or performance or type. Maybe I misunderstood them. I sure would like to have a copy of that Baker article if you could dig it up. As I mentioned, some of the birds I got from Joe Bob and Don Greene go back to the Baker Blue Lace (Reduced) rollers YITS Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Jan 10, 2006 7:31 PM
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motherlodelofts
532 posts
Jan 10, 2006
8:05 PM
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Cliff I will try and dig it up, a couple of years ago I bought a few old Pigeon debuts (Birmingham Roller) from eggbid action.
Most from the eighties , whats funny is the Show guys and duel pupose guys carried most of it and was bunched in the the pure performance guys.
There is also one from Turner in there also when the color birds were just a side thing and his main family was kept intact and seperate , if I remember right around 85 , I'll try and dig them up.
As far as the delute and Grizle thing ,that is a different topic and I just can't see Kenny calling them "color" birds .
Kenny tried working and inbreeding Jack Meyers "26 stuff which carries alot of grizzle years ago.
As for yellows , I have seen many, the ones that I have seen just don't have the qaulity, that doesn't mean that a good one doesn't pop up here and there, I just havn't seen one.
I think that the main reason is that people try to make more and breed for it and they set themselfs back by putting color ahead of everything else, they sure are pretty though, I might add that most the ones I have seen are rec. yellow .
Again, I think that you are crossing topics here that have nothing to do with each other.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jan 10, 2006 8:16 PM
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Ballrollers
219 posts
Jan 11, 2006
3:10 PM
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Scott, Man, if you can dig them up, I'd be indebteded to you. It's strange, I asked Turner that precise question about keeping a side strain of the "pure" Pensoms when we debated this last year. If you recall he said that he did not. However, he started this project in about 1980. So it is logical to me that in the beginning, not knowing the possible outcome, that he might have maintained the original line as pure for awhile until he could determine the success of crossing in the rollers with the color modifiers. Then if it had gone down the tubes, he wouldn't have to start at ground zero. He did not even imply to me that this happened, but if he put it in print, I'd like to jog his memory! On the crossing of the topics, they ARE different topics, but not completely unrelated. If I understand you and Kenny correctly, it is your belief that giving color ANY consideration when pairing birds for performance will only set a guy back in his breeding program; whether that color is inherent in the breed or whether it is the result of breed outcrossing. Choosing to breed a kit of yellows or baldheads is as faulty, as far as you are concerned, as choosing to breed a kit of Indigo or Andalusians, right? Separate from this is your concern that the Indigo and Andalusian shouldn't be there to begin with because of the breed outcrossing that created them. Correct? I'm curious. If it were your choice, and you were elected king of the roller hobby and protector of the breed, would you simply cull all rollers with color modifiers, regardless of performance? Do you think they need to be eliminated to protect the breed? Which ones would go? How would you identify them? Or is your primary goal just to make sure that the new people coming into the hobby recognize the difference in the birds on a historical basis rather than their performance in the air, alone? Like I said, I'm curious as to what motivates the intensity of such a negative response to these birds. YITS Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Jan 11, 2006 3:24 PM
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Ballrollers
220 posts
Jan 11, 2006
3:47 PM
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Guys and Gals,
In Pensom's writings, he makes note of the positive role that "the gayly colored birds" add to the fancy, by getting more folks interested in these pigeons. I believe this holds true today. The more people working with these pigeons, the more people enjoying these pigeons, the stronger the roller hobby and its organizations become. There are many segments to the roller hobby. It is not just about the competition flyers. Other roller hobbyists have their place in this fancy, too, like Jerry posted on the other thread. The argument can certainly be made, that when Pensom made this statement, today's colors were not around, and he may have disapproved of them and how they were developed. On the other hand one could make the argument that Pensom had such respect for performance, that upon observing a quality performance with speed from an Indigo or Andy or Opal, that he would have ignored the whole color issue. We will never know. But the fact remains, like Pensom said, many of today's roller breeders and flyers are interested in performing rollers that are "gayly colored".
YITS Cliff
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Mongrel Lofts
103 posts
Jan 11, 2006
7:20 PM
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Scott, I am referring to statements by Bill Watson, KGB and Thor, among others, who have recently referred to dilute birds as color birds on Earl's List, and to the need for culling these birds as well as those with grizzle factor.
Cliff,
Please don't twist what I say.. I have always said that Dilute was and is within the breed of Birmingham roller. I just think that dilute carries with it a weakness. Its not a crossed in color or factor from other breeds. Like toy stencil, milky, brown, and the likes.. Just want to make sure understand where I stand.. thank you, KGB
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J_Star
180 posts
Jan 12, 2006
5:23 AM
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Sorry, Cliff, Scott and KGB for interrupting your conversation, but lets get back to the original question.
I think Indigo was not brought in from another breed. Remember the Clay hen that Pensom talked so highly of, they called it clay because it was Indigo and they did not recognize that as a color back then. Breed Clay color roller (Indigo) with black self or blue bar self and you will get Andy. Therefore, I truly believe that the Indigo and the Andy are original colors.
Correct me if I was wrong. Thanks.
Jay
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motherlodelofts
536 posts
Jan 12, 2006
8:23 AM
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Jay it is no secret that Andalution/indigo was brought in from a Homer.
Jay there has been a ton of crossbreeding for color and many are still doing it , you will also find the bulk of so called mutations coming out of these same lofts.
The Clay hen was nicknamed such due to being a brick red.
You will find the Clay hen behind many of the old Pensom familys including some of my own.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Jan 12, 2006 8:27 AM
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ROLLERMAN
24 posts
Jan 12, 2006
8:31 AM
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in the early 50s there were a lot of guys in conn that had pensons. and almost every loft had one or two andalusions in there loft.did they come by that color by cross breeding or is it a rare color ? i know next to nothing about color genetics
al
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Ballrollers
222 posts
Jan 12, 2006
8:43 AM
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KGB, Let's not jump to conclusions, now. We have been doing so well in our communication! LOL! There was no twisting whatsover, on my part. If you will read a little farther down in my post, I was careful to clarify my meaning,..."We are into a semantics thing here. I am not saying that they were referring to these as breed outcrosses, but referring to the error of breeding decisions based on color and factors...Maybe I misunderstood them." That could hardly be misconstrued as an attempt to twist your words. The word "color" is being used interchangeably in conversations by many of us, sometimes referring to feather pigment, sometimes referring to breed outcrossing and it is important that we define which meaning we are referring to. I tried to do just that , Kenny. YITS Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Jan 12, 2006 8:46 AM
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Ballrollers
223 posts
Jan 12, 2006
9:48 AM
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Jay, You bring up several valid points in your post. First of all, as you know, there is little scientific basis for the source of each of the colors and modifiers found in today's rollers. In addition, these modifiers and colors have been around in rollers for a long time. All we have are stories of long ago, and rumors and recollections of old-timers to go by. I am not denying that breed outcrossing was the source of several of them, just saying that it is difficult to identify each and every one, and which, like reduced, may have been the result of spontaneous mutation. As I said, there is an uneducated point of view, among some guys, who believe that dilute is a "color factor" brought in by breed outcrossing, and that "pure" rollers do not possesse it, though this is not the popular thought of the day. That's what makes the prejudice against these birds so difficult to justify. Now, I am not talking about some guy out there actively crossing breeds today. I am talking specifically about the James Turner family of rollers, whcih is the family of choice with color, by most men who are also interested in performance and competition.
The second good point that you make is that the old timers knew little about genetics, colors, and factors, and the nomenclature for describing birds was not standard. It varied almost from region to region, and from breed to breed. So one guy's "silver" was another guy's "dun" and another guys "lavender". So there were many mis-communications, mis-identifications, and pedigree errors as a result.
And finally you raise an excellent point about how difficult it is to identify some of these colors and factors, both in the past and today. I would venture to say that very few of the average roller men of yesterday or today, would be able to differentiate an indigo ash red check (called a mimic) from a standard ash red check. Same with recessive red. The red in the indigo gets lost in the ash red or recessive red. So could the Clay hen have carried Indigo that went unidentified visually? Certainly. And when these factors are recessive and carried, well you can just forget identifying it without breeding tests. So it is impossible, today, to say with absolute certainty, what colors some of the rollers of yesteryear (and even today) displayed and what they carried. Much of it is conjecture and wishful thinking. Witness the continuing and unsettled debate about whether Pensom birds carried dilute.
With so many potential sources of error, it makes it difficult to justify any negative prejudice based on color or pattern alone, against a roller that performs to the performance standard of a Birmingham Roller. YITS Cliff
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rooster1
1 post
Jan 14, 2006
8:59 AM
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In pensom's book on page 60 he lists brown as a color found in rollers
In winners with spinners several of the birds are described as barless.
Maybe these were in the original birminghams.
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rust never sleeps
5 posts
Jan 15, 2006
9:07 PM
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I have been called a color breeder,that's cool. I mate my dark hard colors pigeons to my dilutes,grizzles, yellows,badges "ect".BUT THESE ARE AIR TESTED 50% ARE GREAT THE OTHER 50% ARE CRAP, but the one's that SPIN.Are treasures.That's
WHAT MATTER TO ME. In 2 years they will be one family.I follow my own rules not the BILL WATSON'S OF THE WORLD just because they don't like dilutes or grizzles, the past year i stock a dilute hen that 30 ft.the hurricane hen she called. because of her speed. METAL MIGET'S like him give this great hobby a bad rap.
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racer57
5 posts
Jan 16, 2006
11:29 PM
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good grief, how confusing is this!!!!i thought we were supposed to breed for performance. if thats the case then this color crap has to take a back seat. WHO CARES AS LONG AS IT ROLLS HOT!
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chuck
2 posts
Jan 22, 2006
10:09 AM
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Hello to ALL, I have been a backyard flyer for several years. Recently I got rid of the birds I had, relocated to N,Carolina and now have some GREAT Jackonetts from Danny Horner. I am looking forward to breeding some birds for next year and becoming very active in the sport. Hope to hear from you all soon! YITS, CHUCK
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J_Star
200 posts
Jan 22, 2006
10:47 AM
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Chuck, welcome aboard..
Why didn't you get some birds off of your brother Cliff? I heard he has some oustanding birds from JoeBob, Jay Yndle, Danny Horner, James Turner and other outstanding rollermen from NC. Just wondering!!
Jay
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chuck
3 posts
Jan 22, 2006
11:40 AM
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I really liked the way the JACKONETTES fly and kit.Also the small size is to My liking. Seeing that Clay Hoyle won the Nationals with JACKONETTES is a added bonus too.If I choose,I can get TURNER birds from Clif at anytime.He dosen't have JACKONETTES.
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