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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Balancing roller numbers
Balancing roller numbers
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Shaun
259 posts
Jan 22, 2006
12:52 PM
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I'm interested to know how those who've been in the game a while, deal with the inevitable balancing of roller numbers between one year and the next. Unless someone is deliberately looking to increase their level, it would seem that, in a given year, the same number bred will have to be disposed of. Yes, there will be losses during the year to hawks and other predators, flyaways or individual flying losses - but they can be replaced by breeding more. This still means that to fill up those kit boxes or lofts in any year, inevitably a similar number will have to go.
What I would be interested to hear, is how this balancing act is performed. Some might be able to give birds away or sell them. Others will be faced with culling - and it could mean rather a lot of birds.
Do you plan the event, then remove the unwanted birds and dispose of them in one fell swoop, or is it an ongoing task, with a bird here and there throughout the year?
Shaun
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nicksiders
360 posts
Jan 22, 2006
2:25 PM
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I cull as they prove they are a cull usually one day per week. Sunday evening...........Monday morning is trash pick up day. I never have more breeders breeding than my operation size dictates.
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Alohazona
106 posts
Jan 22, 2006
8:16 PM
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Hi Shaun,
Sooner or later,all my birds perform.Having said that,only your intuition can tell you why or when a bird needs to be eliminated.Types of birds that do not stay are bumpers,non-kitters,dish rag rollers,cocky cocks that are only interested in mating,habitual come down earlys,birds that do not perch,when perches are open.My birds develop generally between 3 to 9 months,along with some late bloomers.The late bloomers would have outstanding expression and type to squeak bye,very few exceptions there.
When I do sell birds,I sell them as tumblers,that is what they are referred to here in Hawaii[kinda old school].
When helping out someone new,don't be afraid to ask if their significant other is aware of the birds that will be going home.One morning I noticed 3 of 10 birds that had just given away sitting on the kitbox,after a 20 mile flight back home,a jealous wife was behind that one!!!
Shaun,every year I raise the bar in my program and gain the knowledge to manage the different familys I work with.You will cull,give away,trade,sell.Set a goal or two,there will be some setbacks,but through ruthless selection the cream rises to the top.Aloha,Todd
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maxspin
13 posts
Jan 23, 2006
3:05 PM
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Shaun,
I fly out of (4) kit boxes. I cull all year as needed for the reasons that Todd gives. I also do a “heavy” cull twice a year.
I have (1) “A team” kit box. I then fill (3) kit boxes with young birds.
The first “heavy” cull would be late fall or early winter at lock down time. Breeders have been pulled out of the “A team” and back filled from the best young birds from this year. I will push my “A team” up to about 24 and lock them down. I then need cull down to my winter flying team. I only have time to fly (1) kit in the winter. These are birds that have potential, but aren’t good enough to make the “A team”. I am willing to risk them to the hawks and bad weather.
The second “heavy cull” will be when I need to start filling the holdover box with young birds. At this point if they still have not made the “A Team” I would rather go with the potential of young birds.
Keith Maxwell
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Velo99
197 posts
Jan 23, 2006
5:07 PM
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Shaun,
This is an exerpt from my thoughts on selection:
As I am still relatively new ;I have considered several methods of sorting birds for performance. First tier, the obvious ones; non kitting,early landers,and no rollers. Second tier, I am thinking as the squeaks come in,the holdovers go out. This will give you a season to evaluate your holdovers. I have been amazed by a few of my birds that have become really nice. If you pull the trigger too early you might shoot yourself in the foot. I think I sent some nice birds down the road. If the nestmates turned out anything like the ones I kept. We are probbably all
guilty of this.
This season I am going to fill the B Team kitbox. Top 20 from this season. I don`t have the room to more than two kits. I can`t see keeping more than 10 birds for a holdover kit next season.
YITS
v99
www.bluedot.bravehost.com
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Shaun
260 posts
Jan 24, 2006
12:03 AM
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OK, so elimination methods are based on careful evalution during the flying season - however long that might be for the individual; my season is 12 months, as I don't have an undue hawk problem and I work from home, so I can regularly fly the birds.
So, it seems that at strategic points during the year, it might be appropriate to rid oneself of the odd crappy bird. Then, when it's time to lock down (for those that do), there's little point in maintaining birds which haven't proved themselves. Similarly, when it comes to freeing up kitboxes for the next year's youngsters, some older birds will have to go to make room for the new ones. This could mean sackfulls of culls for Mr Trashman at certain times.
That all makes sense. Now, let's go back to the start of the year when breeding begins in earnest for most. At that point, most guys will have decided to breed X number of rounds and they will usually intend to stop breeding at a particular point, then split up the pairs.
Well, as we all know, the best laid plans have a tendency to go tits-up on occasion. So, what I'm wondering is whether there's often a need to breed an extra round to the number originally anticipated. The clearest example would be a flyaway, where a whole or major part of a kit is lost to the air. If that's to be replaced, extra rounds might well be needed.
But, what I'm also picturing is the general flow of individual birds which are inevitably lost (by whatever means), or they turn to crap pretty quickly and, like Nick says, will end up in the weekly trash.
Do you anticipate such losses and factor them into the breeding program right from the start - say, for example, "I need to fill two kit boxes, but I'm bound to lose or cull some along the way, so I intend to breed enough from the off, to compensate for my average losses."
Or, do you suck it and see, ie you breed just the number to fill the kit boxes then, depending on how many are lost/culled along the way, you decide further down the line whether or not to breed extra birds and, if so, how many.
I imagine that for some guys, losses could happen unexpectedly and breeding extra to compensate could mean late-breds, which some prefer not to have. So, this could mean lighter kit boxes towards the end of the normal breeding season than was originally anticipated.
Anyway, I'd like to hear your thoughts on such matters.
Shaun
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nicksiders
366 posts
Jan 24, 2006
2:51 AM
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Shaun,
Just don't wait until you have a shack full to give to the trashman. As soon as you realize that you have a cull they must be disposed of the first opportunity.
Decide what you want in or from your birds and as soon as you understand that a particular bird is not going to give you what you want (whatever system you use (i.e. do you watch them and give them three days to come around after a certain age - whatever your program allows) then you cull them..............or put them in a cull box. Once you have made that decision remove them from your kit box(s) and stop flying them. They can teach you good birds bad habits and they are wasting your time.
Fly them hard; cull'em even harder. Don't put up with birds that don't meet your standards or requirements. You will probably find you are never going to over populate your operation if you cull them as soon as they qualify to be culled. If you find yourself with an over populated operation seperate your breeders until you get it under control.
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roller_freak
3 posts
Jan 24, 2006
3:54 AM
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sometimes i wonder, was it really necessary for a fancier to cull his birds just because he thinks they are roll downs? In my opinion, couldnt the birds have gotton a chance to prove himself. i once had a roller that was a roll down, but then one day, it corrected itself in midair and caught itself. That bird turned out to be a very nice bird... But like i was saying, if the birds that were being culled rolled atleast 10 ft. couldnt you at least ask around if anyone wants it.. as for me, its hard for me to find a good bird around here.. and im also a little low on cash.. so im wondering instead of culling, think you could give the bird a chance, or better yet ill be happy to take any birds that are roll downs...
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Shaun
261 posts
Jan 24, 2006
4:28 AM
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Absolutely, Nick - I've quoted you above as mentioning that culling on an individual basis should be done as and when necessary with crap birds. But, there will also be times that even when birds aren't dire, they still doen't make the grade and, with room needed for the next lot of youngsters, there's likely to be culling at certain times on a greater scale.
What I'm wondering is whether breeders tend to factor in the average amount they will lose/cull over the year, and breed accordingly in advance, or whether they wait and see and then breed more birds, once the picture is clearer.
So, for example:
Breeder 1 wants 40 birds in his kit boxes. He/she tends to lose/cull a third of what is bred each year, so right from the start 60 are churned out, then the pairs are split up. Only if the calculations are wrong and the breeder ends up with less than anticipated, are more birds bred.
Breeder 2 also wants 40 birds in his kit boxes, but doesn't want to predict anything, so just breeds 40 or so birds, then splits up the pairs. As the season progresses, there's some losses and culls. So, the odd pair is then brought back into operation, to kick out the required number of youngsters.
I'm asking this because I can see pros and cons with both methods. Breeder 1 might overestimate losses/culls and end up with too many birds, which might be difficult to give away or sell (that could be me). However, he/she has the advantage that all birds will have been bred around the same time, so will be at the same stage of development for flying and training.
Breeder 2, with options open at the start of the season, only breeds the actual number wanted - this would be the initial 40 birds, after which the pairs are split up. Then, as the season progresses - and based on actual experience of losses/culls - birds are bred here and there to make up for those which have gone. There's a good level of control here, but the disadvantage seems to be the different stages of development the newer birds will be at, compared to the first batches which were bred at the beginning of the season.
Which are you, breeder 1 or 2? Or maybe you're a 3 and do it differently again?
Shaun
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Major-ret
12 posts
Jan 24, 2006
8:16 AM
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I suspect there is no magical age that you say OK that is a cull bird and remove it from the kit but is there a point when you say there is no way this bird is going to amount to anything? i.e. at 6 months if the bird is not even attempting to roll do you give up on that bird or do you fly for another 6 months giving it a full year to qualify for the kit? If that is the case it seems you could easily fill a number of kit boxes and start overcrowding. So my question is, is there a specific age that you cull not knowing when the specific families come into the roll? As a newbie should I be breeder 1 or 2 as Shaun was describing to keep the numbers manageable?
Last Edited by Major-ret on Jan 24, 2006 8:17 AM
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fhtfire
310 posts
Jan 24, 2006
10:04 AM
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Shaun,
The fact is that you are going to have different numbers to breed every year. For me for example, I had a pretty good year last year. So this year I will only be breeding about 25 birds for myself. One round off of my proven breeders and the rest off of my new breeders. Last year I bred about 75 birds. There are lots of things that will dictate how many birds you will need to breed. Just remember Tony's 80/20 rule. If you standards are set high enough you will cull about 80% of the birds you raise anyway and keep 20%. With me, I always seem to think that I have bred enough...then you need more. I gave a lot of young birds away this year to new people, sold a couple of young bird kits to help out fanciers that had over flys etc, donated to the NBRC, WOrld Cup and Hi-Five roller auctions. A couple roll downs here and there, birds that just got lost, A couple Hawk attacks and then your standard culls. then all of a sudden you are like wow...I have some empty perches..LOL!! After the Wolrd Cup, is when I do a large amount of culling...because your birds are in great shape...usually past the one year mark and what you see is what you get. So the ones that have the little things that I do not like will be eliminated to make room for the next 20% of good birds.
It is just a natural thing...and if you are a true competitor you will find the flaws in your birds to make room for the next possible champions. I always try and keep a full A team and about 15-20 back up birds in the B-team just incase I suffer some losses and I can get some birds in the A team. Then my young bird kit is usually pretty much empty for the breeding season.
My birds better be pretty strong into the roll by about 8 months and better be getting better and better by the 12-14 month mark...or they are on the BBQ. Up to about the 1year mark I am pretty much a lot more patient on the birds...after that...they better be on there way to being a good kit bird or possible breeder. To be honest...it seems that you will always have perch space every year if you have set goals and are moving your birds forward. If you are striving to be the best..then you will be streamlining your teams throughout the year.
MAJOR!!
I would give your birds at least nine months to be into the roll. If they aren't...that my friend is a cull. I know you got some good birds from somebody pretty cool..lol! Your birds should come into the roll between the 4 and 6 month mark. Then give them at least a year in team flying and really study the birds to see who is going to make the cut. Trust me, every year your standards get higher and higher...once you see good birds in the air...that is what you try and strive for.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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nicksiders
367 posts
Jan 24, 2006
10:20 AM
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I believe in allowing birds to correct themselves and I believe all breeders do as well. What is arbitrary is how long you give the bird to get it strait and it varies from breeder to breeder. I usually at least give them until after thier first moult until I start my countdown of 4 consequetive flies with the same problem. What values you judge your birds against (cullable traits) varies from breeder to breeder.
Stick with whatever your plan or system is. I am not saying that you can't change the standards in which you judge your birds. But, any change has to been done only if you have overwhelming evidence that your standards are flawed.
I don't know which type of breeder I am. I try to build two quality kits of 20 to 22 birds each. But, there are times I do not have enough NON cullable birds to support those numbers. I do not believe in letting my standards slide just so I can have the numbers and I also do not cull outstanding birds because I have exceeded those numbers (I have never exceeded those numbers; it would be nice if I could LOL)
What is a good bird to me may not be a good bird to you and vise versa......subjective evaluations are always the most difficult so I try to have as few as possible. Objective evaluations are easier to work with and I try to employ as many as I can.
Well, I have rambled a bit and probably have said things that I even don't believe (LOL).
Last Edited by nicksiders on Jan 24, 2006 10:23 AM
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J_Star
203 posts
Jan 24, 2006
10:50 AM
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Remember, it is easier to train a group of squeekers to become one kit as to adding a couple of sequeekers here and there to an already established kits. Squeekers will cause the established kit to become disoriented for a period of time. So your breeding program should always accommodate that. I like to have 25 squeekers per kit box. Having 2 kit boxes with 25 each will allow you to train properly and to cull as needed and mix and match. Also will allow you to handle some losses. Pretty much the losses are always from hawks, not overfly or just lost their way home. If you breed like me from end of Feb. to end of June, hawks would not be a problem because the youngsters are well enough by then to outrun a hawk (for the most part). When it comes to youngsters, you can fly them in a group of 30 if you want until they start the roll. Like Paul said, the culling would be after or around the time the W/C take place.
Jay
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nicksiders
370 posts
Jan 24, 2006
12:15 PM
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Pual,
Of those 75 how many do you have left. I too bred 75 and I have 24 left. This year I am looking for 100 to keep 30. Once I start competing with the WC I will probably be more agressive with culling especially if I do not do well(LOL). I have been told once you start competing you cull a little harder.
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fhtfire
312 posts
Jan 24, 2006
4:16 PM
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I have about 30 birds that made the cut.I have about 20 RUby rollers on top of the 30 that I am flying out too. I will weed them down a little more after the world cup. I had a good year this last year. I helped out a guy with some nice proven spinners too. I have a full boat with about 80 kit birds. Righ now I have about 50 kit birds. I just started breeding....two rounds for someone else and then I will breed a round for myself..then the three rounds of the two new pairs then I am done for the year!!
rock and ROLL
Paul
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