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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
What is a family?
What is a family?
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Mongrel Lofts
123 posts
Jan 24, 2006
10:33 AM
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Guys have been kicking this around and I wonder what you guys think. What is family? Is it any birds you collect and keep at your house? Is it any bird you collect up, cross on each other and keep bringing in birds from all over. Is it sellecting some birds and breeding them for years improving them year after year? Is family a selecitve group of birds that are kept to themselves, line bred, inbred for many generations within the family. I was recently shocked to learn what some consider family.. Many in this sport, kind of look at family like they do cars.. I bought that car, thats my car.. I bought that roller, thats my family.. Just what is your opinion? what constitutes a family? WHAT IS A FAMILY OR STRAIN OF ROLLERS? Mongrel Lofts
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nicksiders
368 posts
Jan 24, 2006
10:52 AM
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I believe it to be birds that you have selectively bred from for at least several generations while never bringing in new genetics from outside your loft. I am not there yet and will not be for about another 3 to 5 years as long as I do not bring in other birds from outside my loft.
As long as you have bands on the legs of birds in your loft(s) that is not yours you don't have your own family.
Last Edited by nicksiders on Jan 24, 2006 10:55 AM
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Phantom1
113 posts
Jan 24, 2006
10:55 AM
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Hey Kenny,
I think the term "family" is very subjective. As you mentioned, you were shocked to hear what some consider to be a family.
Here's my take. A Family of birds is, as you mentioned, a closely related, always improved upon, group of birds. Do I personally think it's okay to introduce something into the family - Yes - but in a closely controlled manner and on a "as needed" basis only. I can think of numerous reasons a person may do this. But again, I believe it's a very subjective term.
Take for example, if I got 4 pairs from you and that's all I had to work with. Because I got them from you, they would be your family. However, when I got them home, who's to say that I would make every pairing in the exact same fashion that you would have, had they still been at your loft. In this instance, I view the offspring as "my family", but built upon your Strain of birds.
I do see your overall point in this post. To get birds in from here, there, and everywhere, you are going to risk losing what was already established. But I guess it's each to their own what they do eh?
Yours in the hobby,
Eric
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J_Star
204 posts
Jan 24, 2006
11:03 AM
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Kenny,
To me, a strain is a well inbred and line bred birds that might have started from a foundation cock or hen by the original breeder. The rollers in this collection would be identical of each other in everyway if you igonre the paint job.
A family on the other hand, can accommodate many meanings. You can collect rollers from many lofts or just one loft, but once they are in your loft and you breed them, they are considered your family, no ifs and no buts about it.
Jay
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nicksiders
369 posts
Jan 24, 2006
11:08 AM
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God........now you have me thinking (soon I will be curled up in the corner sucking my thumb).
It would not be your family if you recieved say all of your birds from Scott Campbell in the beginning and never bred any birds outside of that family into the mix. Even if the bands in your loft(s) where all yours (to include the breeders) it is not your family. Your birds are Scott Campbell's family.
Hold on, I will probably modify this statement again.....LOL
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
352 posts
Jan 24, 2006
12:26 PM
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A strain has been subjectively bred using a variety of principals the owner see's fit. They are all related by virtue of this process.
A family is a group of birds who generally share a common ancestory, but that can also include birds from outside sources allowed to participate in this "general" group of mostly related birds.
I always try to keep in mind that two of my Uncles are not related to me, yet, by virtue of marriage to my aunts, they are my family. When we get together at Christmas, only half of the people present am I genetically related to. But every person in that room is my family. Make sense?
Brian.
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J_Star
205 posts
Jan 24, 2006
1:39 PM
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well, Nick it is not fair say that I screwed up Scott's birds that I have from him and dish them out to others as Scott's. Then people will think that Scott's birds are trash. Therefore, anything in your loft, once you breed them is yours. you might not see it that way, but lets look at at from my point view by an example.
Gerge busschaert was a millionare, who bought the best racing pigeons there was in Belgium in the sixties and seventies and brought them to England. The birds were totally unrelated but they had one thing in common they contained a variety of genes that were capable of producing super athletic characteristics in pigeons. When the question was asked, what exactly is a family of pigeons, he responded with his own definition, and in spite of his pigeons originating from a variety of sources, he said that when they were in his loft they were Busschaerts. for that reason, Anything enters my loft is mine and mine alone. Once I succssed with them, then I reference them to where they originated form.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Jan 24, 2006 1:42 PM
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Mongrel Lofts
124 posts
Jan 24, 2006
1:56 PM
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Hi BMC, Nick,
This topic does make one think a bit..I thought a good example of a guy building a family recently was my visit to Joe Emberton's loft.. Joe E, is fairly new to the roller sport, but an accomplished breeder of Racing homers.. So he isn't new to breeding performance pigeons.. Joe has already won a national title and his program showed smart breeding to me.. Joe told me he tried many birds but this one hen and cock from Juan Navaro really put out the goods. I think the hens number was 200 could be wrong.. I know she was a dun red check.. That is roller dun for you color guys, not dilute dun. Joe showed me his pairs for the year.. 3 cocks were off this hen and great rollers. I think he had a daughter on the other cock he started with.. Then he had a couple experiment pairs, but you could surely see where his family and his focus was.. Joe is Building a family, based around two producers.. Joe has been at a short time, and already he is saying this one comes her and that's her grand mother and that one is his uncle.. Working a family.
Like you Brian, All my birds are not tightly inbred or even line bred, but all my birds have a base foundation. They are all related, some tight, some distant..I can look back at 5 generations alive in the loft now, and thin of the bird several generation back that were what made them possible.. It is a good feeling to breed family and to know what made what you fly possible..
When I have brought a bird in, I get what I need off one of my inbred birds, move the odd bird out and start breeding back to the base family.. In a good family, this just does not need to be done often.. A few times in a life time once you have developed a family.. in my opinion.. Anyway,, it is fun to kick around..
Nick, your right about one thing,, No two people will select the same birds and then mate them the same way.. After a few generations, no matter were you get your birds, you own your creation.. you select what works under your handling and what you like to see in type and in the air.. Family is just what it means,, A family, not a pink slip.. Those uncles by marriage. Just see what the family does to them when they beat your aunt BMC.. They are family in name only buddy.. When my daughter got divorced, It didn't take long for her husband who thought he was family, to change his mind.. LOL Mongrel Loft
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Slobberknocker
77 posts
Jan 24, 2006
1:58 PM
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Kenny,
I agree that a "collection" of birds does not make them a family. I beleive it takes many years to categorically call the birds you have your family. I understand that you have had your family of birds for 20 plus years (give or take). They are your family now.
I think bringing in birds from all over for whatever reason is a crap shoot and unpredictability is the only predictable thing in those cases.
That said, I if I were to get birds from you and breed them, in accordance with J Star's post, they are now my birds bred from your family. I could say that I got my original stock from Kenny who has bred them a certain way for the last 20 years, but when I put the birds together and raise youngsters, they are now my birds with Ken Billings ancestry.
The birds I have are all from one family which has been line bred, inbred, and carefully and vigorously culled for poerformance over the last 45 years. However, all the young I have now are my onw stock bred from -----'s blood. Therefore, if I breed them wrong and ruin the family, the blame is on me, not the original breeder's. Same if I improve upon the family.
Personally, I don't really agree with or support the idea of the "hybrid vigor" thing for competition. Reason being, you might get lucky once and win, but the guy with the stable family of birds will have consistency over circumstance.
I also beleive you can have sub-families within an established family to use when an outcross is needed. You would still be outcrossing, but within the predictable family. I will be starting one of these sub-families within my own birds but this sub-family all goes back to one outstanding cock bird. One great bird as the foundation and much higher predicability when breeding. Sure saves a lot of work!!
Bob
Last Edited by Slobberknocker on Jan 24, 2006 2:00 PM
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nicksiders
371 posts
Jan 24, 2006
3:21 PM
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I would like to think that the birds I have in my kit boxes are my family. The problem is that the birds I have in my breeding loft are not (except for one cock and one hen). Once I have moved the breeders who are not mine out of my breeding loft and have selected my own birds from my kits as breeders I cannot fully except that my loft(s) contain only my family of birds. I think this better explains where I am coming from (I hope). With that in mind I now believe I can have my own family in less than the 3 to 5 years I mentioned before. I could have them as my family in a year or less.
Kenny - I agree with your system. My birds will all be related but, not inbred or line bred when they become my family....all will be related though.
Bob - I agree with much of what you are saying as well. I am also sceptical of the "hybred vigor" I keep hearing about. I believe that a true champion loft comes from stability and the "hybred vigor" thing doesn't smack of stability to me.
J - I understand what you are saying with my "Scott Campbell family" example and I feel the same way. Once I have given some birds away they are his and I don't want anyone to see them as my birds. The person I gave them to my not manage them well and they become pieces of crap due to being mismanaged.
Well, uh I told you guys to stand by I would be changing my opinion. LOL. I am like a Jewish Rabbi. I have more than one opinion about just one topic.....LOL
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Velo99
199 posts
Jan 24, 2006
5:34 PM
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ok guys
Here is my take. I have all the breeders in place,I hope,to get my family off the ground and in the roll.
I sat down today and drew up "The Plan" . I already have mother and daughter in the pen. Dad didn`t cut the mustard this season. I have a pretty decent yearling cock from mom for next seasons breeding.I also have a prove pair of breeders from Paul. My breeders consist of Turners Higgins and Lavins.
It will take me five seasons to get the four hens and two cocks into one pairs offspring.I feel when I get to that point the birds from there on out are MY family. If they pan out each succeeding year I will have more birds to pick breeders from. After an additional five years I hope to liquidate all but the best and start out fresh with five pairs of my family. I did the math and hours,and days of watching and record keeping. The product will be the direct reflection of my skills as a breeder.
YITS
V99
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J_Star
206 posts
Jan 24, 2006
5:52 PM
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Bob,
Lets look at it from a different point view. Those collection of birds once bred best to best and in the course of time they will become related. In turn they are a family of birds. Even if not bred best to best, you have human family that are not tight together while others are. Does not make the not so tight family not a family. This is just my take on this subject.
Again, Vigor is not that good is because the next generation of breeding the vigor birds will give you crap. It is only, and that is only my opnion based on my expereince, when you have a sideline family off of your family and breed them together will produce good results. And there is a method of how to get that good vigor and keep it in your family.
Jay
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merced guy
45 posts
Jan 24, 2006
10:20 PM
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say you bred them, but got the parents from another rollermen, if you bred them , they are yours to call your own, but in time after several generations, its your creation; your family. why you ask, if these same birds were left to another person to pick and choose to breed then the results will be different, their family; their work.
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merced guy
46 posts
Jan 24, 2006
10:28 PM
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which would you choose?
If you were given two birds to take home and breed which one would you choose?
a champion spinner that has eveything, but when you look at his family, siblings, close kins, all were just second class or average birds, none worthy of his caliber. -----or-------
would you take an average bird that had great siblings, parents, kins were all top spinners, "champions" (Im using the word loosely here)
which one would you choose?
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nicksiders
373 posts
Jan 24, 2006
10:40 PM
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I would take the bird who comes from a family having a lot of "champions"..........without a doubt.
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Opinionated Blowhard
2 posts
Jan 25, 2006
9:00 PM
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A roller family is the same thing as a roller strain. For some reason, roller fanciers are reluctant to use the term "strain" as freely as breeders of other livestock. A strain of rollers is a collection of birds related by some common ancestry, close or not. They have been bred and selected by the same fancier for several generations using his personal grading & selection criteria. These things distinguish these rollers as being of HIS strain.
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