washington86
16 posts
Jan 31, 2006
11:18 AM
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I have a few rollers that are kinda big. not that big but when i look at them they are consider a bit big. that is there original size thought. will they be able to fly high and roll. it looks like they get tire very fast.
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nicksiders
397 posts
Jan 31, 2006
1:00 PM
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Some birds are simply larger than others. I have found that size means little about performance; they either have the good roll or they don't. It is up to the breeder to keep them in shape and to feed them properly. Over feeding can doom thier performance. Feed not more than one cup per 10 birds and they will do alright and fly them often to keep in shape.
You got to manage your loft.....it takes work. If you don't you will never recieve all the fun that comes from flying rollers.
Keep them flying and cull the ones who don't measure up.
Best to you,
Nick
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siddiqir
119 posts
Jan 31, 2006
1:02 PM
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Late Bob Brown from England has big size rollers and he did very well with them. I am not sure if size is really matter but if your birds can fly and stay up then they will roll. Birds which have meat on them will roll with very high velocity (earth gravity principal apply here) and style will follow the velocity. Do you know the origin of your rollers? I do get big size rollers from time to time and they fly and roll
Thanks, -Rauf
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J_Star
214 posts
Feb 01, 2006
4:39 AM
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With inbreeding, you can bring your birds size down. I myself like the smaller size rollers.
Jay
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washington86
21 posts
Feb 01, 2006
9:51 AM
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yea. i like the smaller size roller because thier better at flying and rolling. Big one is just Hawk baits.
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Mount Airy Lofts
91 posts
Feb 01, 2006
11:19 PM
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I have a question here.. When you guys say small, do you mean Dove size?
I have seen acouple of pigeons that I would consider Dove size. That is too small in my opinion. People say, the small the better. When is small to small?
I like the saying, find the middle. Being balance is very important in this breed. Having too much is just as having too little.
I would like to have smaller pigeons but know it is just for comestic. I don't breed for big pigeons but know it is a trait that is with my birds from the get go. What I do do is breed for a medium bird. That is pairing my birds so I would end up with a medium cross between a big bird and a small bird. When I say small, I am not talking about Dove size. I am just referring to a bird that is just under the medium size.
I breed alot of big pigeons. They are very strong fliers. The longer, bigger, and wilder the are, the stronger a flier they will be. So I have no idea where size has to do with them not being able to fly. Flying is in their blood. Any one breeding non flying birds, probably started with the wrong stock.
A note, when I talk about big or small... it is in referrence with fliers/kit birds only.
Just my opinion,
Thor
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J_Star
215 posts
Feb 02, 2006
4:35 AM
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Thor, like you say it is in the family. I like the dove size, about 8oz or so. They do the same as any family of birds, from flying to spinning but the size is smaller. Some are small and long cast but are the same. Inbreedeing will bring the size down in pigeons. Thanks.
Jay
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siddiqir
120 posts
Feb 02, 2006
10:39 AM
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I personally prefer samll size rollers. I do have few big size rollers but avoid to breed from them, they through big rollers just like them. Smaller the better. It is true that big size rollers get tired quickly. Less fly time and worst thing, bring down the entire kit. They need more feed and mostly you seem them fighting...it is not just personal liking or disliking but there are disadvantages too.
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nicksiders
403 posts
Feb 02, 2006
11:15 AM
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I prefer the small compact roller, but I can tell you I have seen 'em large that where "rockets" in the roll and did it frequently. Don't equate size with performance, you might be giving away champions.
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Mount Airy Lofts
92 posts
Feb 02, 2006
3:14 PM
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Dove size ey?
I don't care too much for a pigeon that small. I think it would be hard for such a small bird to handle some of the winds we get up here. That and the cold usually cleans out the smaller birds. The Winters are brutual and the Summers are wickly hot. I have not had much experience with smaller birds.
On a side note, I find people's referrence to size is all over the board. We had a lawn show last year and I asked what people thought about one of my certain birds. To me, it was a large bird and I stated I would not breed out of such a large bird. Some veteran color guys there, who barely fly their birds if at all said that the bird was actually perfect in size. I looked at it again and said to my self, are they kidding me. There were some F1 Henry Cook birds and F1 Don Ouellettes there that were dove size. I guess my point is, size is to the eye of the beholder.
There is only one Cock bird in my kit that I would consider Small. It is not as big as a Dove but as small as I have seen them get in my family. It is coming along quite well and hopefully this bird will turn out so I can use it to reduce the size in my stock. Suprisingly, the Small Cock's nest mate is all so the smallest Hen I have in the kit box. She is rolling 15' but still too young to do anything special.
Is there any thing to inbreeding if you want smaller pigeons? I do alot of Line breeding with good success but the size is still all over the board. I think in any breeding program, to meet your ideal, you just have to pick the right birds. I have not found the right combonation of birds to inbreed yet. Altho, I do alot of Father to Grand Daugther and first Cousin matings.
Interesting if any roller the size of a Dove can survive the weather conditions up here in Minnesota. Even the Wild Doves migrate to warmer conditions - yet alone face topical storm type winds.
Thor
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
361 posts
Feb 02, 2006
3:20 PM
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I have some white doves and I can tell you they are at least the size of my kit birds, with the males being, in some cases, a little bigger. I consider my kit birds to be medium in size. I get a few that will be a tick on the rangy-larger size and the same with a few that are very thin and short. By and large, the medium to smaller ones are the ones that rip it up here. But, there have been a few exceptions where a larger bird could hit some nice speed too.
A few years ago when Dennis Burke was here I flew a kit for him. I showed him this big honkin' blue check white flight cock I had raised that was just way too big in my opinion. He was much larger than any roller I had. I told him to watch this bird. The bird was seldom in the roll. Maybe once every ten minutes at best. But when he hit one, I asked Dennis if he saw it. He said yah, that was pretty fast for a big bird, and asked if I would consider stocking it. I told him no, as I don't want big birds like that and his infrequent performance, regardless of how fast he could spin, leaves little for me to desire.
I think overall, birds that are larger framed are stronger, and thus, can often resist the roll more than a smaller framed bird. I have found that sometimes, a fast, larger framed bird is good to mate to the smaller, dove-like speedsters that are on the hot side, to find a nice balance inbetween. Big performing rollers might not have a place in a competition kit, but sometimes they do in the stock loft.
Brian.
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nicksiders
405 posts
Feb 02, 2006
4:07 PM
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Mine are generally small comparing them to other breeds of similar pigeon breeds like Tipplers, etc, but they are not as small as doves (but, close). I am currently breeding towards smaller rollers.
You guys must have some huge doves...LOL. Now if your in southern CA some of those wild doves in your backyard are a wild pigeon and not a dove (of course all doves are pigeons, but if you look in your birding book there is a pigeon that comes up from Mexico that is colored like what we normally associate as a dove).
I am not sure if I want my rollers to be as small as a dove (atleast the doves that I have known)
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
362 posts
Feb 02, 2006
5:14 PM
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Nick, I'm not talking about Mourning Doves or even Band-Tail Pigeons. Those Band Tails are pretty darn big, big as a homer. I'm talking about captive Ringneck Doves. The wild doves around my place are pretty fat. They get the scrap feed the chickens don't eat.
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rust never sleeps
9 posts
Feb 02, 2006
7:51 PM
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2002 my original cross's were big pigeons. but they had good speed to them. But i allways respected the smaller one's but making small, dove size. for the past 3 years it's not been easy you get small rollers that are culls to.2004 i pick up a pair dove size rollers that danny horner give to LOS ANGELES PIGEON CLUB. Junior program to auction off red bar self the other blue ckeck self that are dove size no kidding,. I cross those two to my medium size air tested spinners some of there youngsters turn out Great don't need a lot of air time to come into the roll one was a jaw dropper 40' at 4 month's what was great that pigeon turn out to be a cock, richard luna/ danny horner cross.PICK another pair at 2006. to use.You need small pigeons to make small pigeons to me small dove size,compact rollers are better performers Good post!
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fhtfire
322 posts
Feb 02, 2006
8:23 PM
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I prefer the medium to small size birds. That is just what I prefer on the perch....I have had some big birds that perform too. I have a Black cock in my A team that is huge...Nick had the chance to see the bird that I call a chicken when he was over. Let me tell you...in the air you can't tell how big it is. He hits 40 foot rolls and snaps right out. I think size is nothing but what you prefer in you loft. As for performance..I have seen little difference between the two.
rock and ROLL
Paul Fullerton
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washington86
23 posts
Feb 02, 2006
10:13 PM
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i like the small meaning that its bewteen a morning dove and a regular pigeon. my rollers back then were about that size. they keep up with the flying. the rollers tat i have now are quite big. they bring down the kit. they usually fly for 4 minutes at the most. the smaller ones keep fling and it usually takes 30 minutes or more for them to get tired.
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nicksiders
407 posts
Feb 02, 2006
10:19 PM
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I would not tolerate the 4 minute birds too long. They had better get it or join the cull roster.
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washington86
25 posts
Feb 02, 2006
10:41 PM
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me too. i'll never tolerate 4 mintues birf because they ither be cheap or a piece of junk. im giving them another try if they improve. i'll work hard and train them. sometime i'll throw them as hard as i can in the sky and they just glide by down and straight into the kit. poor pigeon 8-(
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J_Star
219 posts
Feb 03, 2006
4:57 AM
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Washington,
De-worm your birds. You will get better performace after 10 to 14 days from those 4 min flyers.
When youn inbreed, breed daugther to father. After two generations of breeding back to the founding cock, the size will become smaller and smaller. You have to be paitant when you work toward bringing the size down and at the same time making a strain out of your family. Nothing will happen overnight in this sport.
Jay
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siddiqir
123 posts
Feb 03, 2006
6:56 AM
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Washington86, if they are doing 4-5 minutes then probably that it is not their size...
One of these may apply
1) Overfeeding
2) Very rich feed
3) Unmanage training
4) They may have worms
5) Person you have gotten from never flew them
.
.
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You may want to put them on just wheat or milo. Give a cup per 10 birds for week or so and see if they start to improve.
Last Edited by siddiqir on Feb 03, 2006 7:02 AM
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Mount Airy Lofts
93 posts
Feb 03, 2006
8:38 AM
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4 minutes...
You don't have a flying stock! It's time to visit as many lofts and see hundreds of birds in the air.
I have big rollers. This is not a problem for me. One line (a sub family) produces huge birds. These are some of the highest velocity Rollers I have. Deep, tight, and fast. The problem is their frequency. Brian may have some thing about big pigeons being more mentally stronger then smaller ones. These big pigeons of mine that are super rollers are about once every minute and a half. Compare that to the frequency now seen in some of today's birds, that is quite stiff.
My advice to you is, either you need to find new stock or your doing some thing wrong (flying from open loft, etc).
Thor
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washington86
29 posts
Feb 04, 2006
10:12 PM
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thanks for your advise Mount Airy Loft, Siddigir, and J Star. i'll try doing what you guys said. I just got some birds in today from John. his family were great performance. very good at rolling. I'm going ahead and breed his family and get some good one out of them. after seeing his kit fly, i'm already crazy about it. thanks for your advise.
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