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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Understanding article
Understanding article
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Safire
1 post
Feb 03, 2006
11:39 AM
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Hi everyone, I am new to this forum. I was reading Jay Animer's article and this question came across my mind.
Quote from: "can we breed champion spinners"
"The producer hen must be line bred back to her father or brothers but never to her son.The cock must also be line bred back to its mother or sisters but never to his daughters"
I'm kinda puzzled about this. Does it mean the producer hen be line bred back to her farther (meaning foundation cock)/producer cock be line bred back to mother (meaning foundation hen)? I thought the article says not to line breed producer cock to daughter or not line breed producer hen to son?
Can some one help me out one here?
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Mount Airy Lofts
97 posts
Feb 03, 2006
4:47 PM
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From my under standing of what you just wrote. It states that you should breed any such champions back to it's parent. That would be kind of hard if you didn't own the parents to this Champion wouldn't you think?
It does makes sense that to intense the genes, you should go back to the original bird instead of waiting to breed another bird of opposite sex.
I believe Pete Handy from England ask this same question to Earl's List a while ago. He wanted to know which would be the best way to intense the genes - mating father to daughter/mother to son or mating daughter to father/son to mother. It may sound the same but if you was to really think... the off spring produce will be a combonation of both parent's genes.
Thor
P.S. I guess you could have a non desirable breeder that produced a Champion. This is RARE tho! Who are we kidding tho, breeding Champions isn't a every day thing either and would be RARE. In that case, you would not want to mate it back to it's parent but to a daughter or son.
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fhtfire
324 posts
Feb 03, 2006
9:21 PM
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Safire,
There are a lot of different ways to breed! Inbreeding, Line Breeding. Father/daughter, cousin, some have success with brother sister mating and some do not. There is even the old Best to Best. Some breed Deep birds to super fast shallow birds...some breed super hot over frequent birds to under frequent birds. Some just breed from a pedigree. You would go crazy trying to figure out what is best.
I myself run 3 lines or strains or families or whatever you want to call them. I Have Jaconette, Scott Campbell and Ruby Rollers. Some of the Jacs are from the same tree but totally different branches, Ruby Rollers and Campbells are very tightly bred. So, the best that I can say is trial and error. For example, I have an excellent 04 cock that I just pulled and put an early 05 hen on that cock. The two are Jacs but not close relation, I will breed 3 or 4 round from this pair. I may put the Cock back on the Mother and see what I get...I put one of the cocks daughters back on the cock. I may even take my best Ruby Roller hen and try her on that 04 cock. If the off spring from the Ruby Roller and 04 cock are good....I may breed the offspring to a half brother or sister from a different hen that I bred to the 04 cock... and then breed that offspring back to the original 04 cock. I may cross my Best Ruby Roller cock to the 04 cock and Ruby Roller hen offspring. The sky is the limit. Just keep good records and do not waste your time on poor producers. Don't freak about crossing strains..sometimes it works out!! IF it does not..you can always put your original breeders back together to get back to where you were.
If that 04 cock produces crap with every bird I put him on...the he will be put back in the kit box and if he can't perform like he used to...then he is eliminated. It is not brain surgery and I think a lot of people get to caught up in the breeding. All you do is try!
I do not think that it is always true that all genes will be passed on..like if you have a bird that sometimes lands a little before the rest of the team..but that bird is your best roller...would you breed from it ....Hell Yes...That does not mean that the bird will pass on that trait. Look at it this way. How come you can have the same pair together and produce 12 rounds form that pair. One bird comes out a non-kitting knuckle head..Some roll hard and deep..some roll a little shallow.....How come the other offspring kit like glue. Lest say the mother and father never had a problem kitting...I say..well...shit happens...that non kitting bird got the short end of the egg LOL!! So if a bird comes down a little early and is your best roller and the 12 rounds of brothers and sisters never come down early...then the gene is not that strong...wouldn't you think. It may not even be a genetic trait. It may be that the bird works a little harder...or does not get enought grub...or hatched a little late...or did not get enough grub during a curtain phase of maturity ..the list goes on!!
It is all about picking what you feel are the best birds. There is no such thing as a PERFECT BIRD! So you have to weigh in....what flaws are a big deal what flaws are not when you select breeders.
IF you look at some of the Pedigrees of some of the top fliers and I have seen quite a few...go back 4 or 5 generations and guess what, most of the time you will see birds from many different breeders or stains crossed and then the pedigree starts narrowing down to certain birds.
So, start out with the least amount of breeders as possible that have the best traits and pass on the best birds and start breeding your line together..you will find that you will automatically start circling the wagons around certain birds without even thinking about it. I mayself have only 6 pairs of proven breeders and soon will be 5 pairs. So, when you start out with the least amount of foundation or excellent quality pairs...you are already ahead of the game! Most fanciers or new comers have to many breeders from to many families and never weed them down. Or continue to bring in new birds. The key is to find the best 4 or 5 excellent producers and start from there. If you stick with what you got and keep working it you, set high standard for picking your breeders, take lots of notes and your program should start keying in on curtain birds and come together on it own. You will find as your first breeders get old and stop producing or get sick or you sell a pair or two..you will keep breeding your best to best and before you know it..you have your own strain and your lines are coming together.
Don't make it more then it is. It is trial and error and excellent record keeping. If you have a good producing bird..cock or hen...try it on every mate you can and see what works best...it could be a uncle or a cousin or even a brother or sister or maybe a very distant relative that produces the best offspring.... But you for sure have to start out with good birds. Like Scott Campbell always says..you can't make chicken soup out of chicken shit!
Oh! Just remember...what works for someone else will not always work for you!
rock and ROLL
Paul Fullerton
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J_Star
222 posts
Feb 04, 2006
6:18 AM
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Safire,
Hope you enjoyed reading the artikle. When you inbreed for many generation, hybrid Vigor will diminish or lost. To bring it back to your family you need to breed it as stated. Here is what I wrote in the artikle:
"Be careful, hybrid vigor can be a very fragile concept. When it occurs within a loft, and unless a careful breeding strategy is carried out, it can easily be lost. It happens more often and frequent than you think and explains why fliers can have a tremendous season or two, winning prestigious competitions, and then sink into the background and never to be heard of again. The simplest solution to maintain hybrid vigor is to keep together the pairs of rollers that produce the better rollers and not introduce any outcrosses. It is essential to set up two lines of breeding to increase the number of pairs that produce the magical hybrid vigor. The producer hen must be line bred back to her father or brothers but never to her sons. The cock must also be line bred back to its mother or sisters but never to his daughters. The resulting offspring from the two separate lines can then be mated and hybrid vigor will reappear."
I have since written other artikles elaborating further about the breeding methods to further explain. Whenever Tony is ready to post them, you will be able to relate what is in this artikle further. Thanks.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Feb 04, 2006 6:27 AM
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nicksiders
417 posts
Feb 04, 2006
11:49 PM
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I never see the word "stability" come from this hybred vigor thing. I hear KGB has birds that generation after generation produce very good stable rollers. I don't see that coming from those who are in that hybred vigor thing. I see one or two generations of hot birds then it goes to junk. Develope your family and keep it your family and more than likely you you will develope the stability that is missing in a heck of a lot of lofts.
I am breeding so that all of my birds will be related; not inbreeding or line breeding, but they will be related. I believe this is how you can attain stability......year after year. If you keep throwing in new strains into your loft time after time your genetic pool gets so wide it is not controllable.
I am leary about this hybred vigor breeding. It is a short range or short term goal.....kind of a quick fix for the next immediate scheduled competition.
Last Edited by nicksiders on Feb 05, 2006 8:12 PM
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Safire
2 posts
Feb 05, 2006
4:22 PM
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Thanks everybody for your posts. I do look forward to reading any new articles if or when posted.
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J_Star
224 posts
Feb 06, 2006
8:01 AM
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This is only my personal views….
I believe that there are breeders and there are breeders. Anybody can become a breeder by putting pairs together whether from the same family or mix and match. I am a scientific minded person and believe that what makes a master breeder is a complete understanding of the science and the art behind sound birds breeding methodology.
The easiest is best to best which is practiced by just about most of the fanciers that I know. But if any fancier who wants to become a master at breeding rollers, science, art and the proven methods of the masters before us will be his/her guide.
Nick, you might not think much of hybrid vigor but it is essential to the rollers performance. I do agree with you that the method some fanciers go to obtain it fails in couple of generations. That is because they go after it the wrong way. Or maybe it is done purposely just to put them on the map close to winning or maybe winning for one season then they donate the winning kit to the NBRC to generate some resources for the club and give the excuse that they need couple of years to produce another winning kit. No body gives away their hard earned and sound winning kit away. There were fanciers, without mentioning names, from CA in the mid 90’s who you could not touch their birds without giving up a small fortune due their winnings in competition. Where are they now? Why are the winners from NC now? Strange that the 20 birds W/C and NBRC winners are from NC while the 11 birds are from CA. That is a complete turn around, don’t you think? I think that the hybrid vigor was lost because of the intense inbreeding in those fanciers family and they are having hard time bring in it back.
I am open to hear other views and discussions. Thanks.
Jay
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Ballrollers
262 posts
Feb 06, 2006
11:35 AM
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Great thread guys, and interesting observations, Jay. Although many guys appear to have a particular breeding philosophy, the most apparent thing in the hobby is that they all seem to work....and they all seem not to work. In other words, many guys are intermitently successful in breeding comp birds with strict inbreeding philosophies and many guys are successful in comps by outcrossing regularly. Both camps have birds that produce good percentages. Both camps seem to loose it periodicaly and require hybrid vigor to get it back. One problem is that the comps are not a good measuring stick to go by. I suppose it is because of the variation in hawk problems, weather, luck, etc. to fly the birds out and to win in the comps.
I am most intrigued by the quality birds that are produced from poor performers in many lofts. Some guys will profess to select birds based on some mysterious quality of type or expression (none of which can be well-defined or even described, usually), or based on the number of quality performers in its heritage, for this purpose. I believe that, in reality, these matings are based on just a gut feeling. Sometimes it pays off, and usually it does not. Now I have to ask, why would I keep a non-performer around to breed from? I don't do it for color and I don't plan to do it based on anything else but performance, either. I don't have the loft space to take those kind of chances with a long shot. And I doubt whether many guys really do so if you could look in their breeding lofts. It's one thing to preach about it, and another to practice it. If we look into it, we find that most of these were chance discoveries or matings; accidents. In other words, an average performing pumper pair is allowed to raise a pair of squabs and produces an awesome bird......or a guy pairs two average birds, based more on color than on performance, and lo and behold they produce a near champ. We've all seen it. (Who said that breeding for color couldn't improve the roll?! LOL!) Obviously, none of these latter scenarios carry with them the percentages, and to me, it's all a percentages game. And there appears to be several ways to skin that cat! YITS, Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Feb 06, 2006 12:11 PM
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Safire
6 posts
Feb 06, 2006
12:23 PM
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What if you had 2 different family of B rollers? 1 cock age 10 and 1 hen age 8, and they were both older birds, but very desirable in your stock(also what if they were you best birds). Would age be a matter in pairing these two up? I don't have these birds, but just like to know for future reference.
Friend in the hobby
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J_Star
228 posts
Feb 06, 2006
6:31 PM
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Age really mean nothing if they still produce good offsprings. To have birds in that age as breeders, must mean that the fancier kept them for that long because they were good producers. Alto, fanciers should breed from young pairs in the long run and continuely replace their stock by new couple of years old birds that have been tested in the air and on the perch. This way you continue in the progress rather than staying in the same direction 8 to 10 years back waiting for that champion from the old farts (lol).
Jay
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