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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
toy stencil
toy stencil
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Mongrel Lofts
127 posts
Feb 05, 2006
7:09 PM
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How far will we go to call somethig performance breeding? Nick, I think you have learned that color breeding is not about cross breeding 75 and 50 years ago, but it is still going on today .. Hang around, you will learn what color breeding really is.. The crossing of breeds, not some color that happens to pop up within the breed.. When you see guys selling Toy stencil Birmingham rollers and they start telling you, it was in the breed all along.. You will know better and see the misinformation and smoke screen as clearly as some of. Those other colors were put into the breed the same way toy stencil is being put in the breed right now.. I also wonder how far will we go to call something Performance breeding? Mongrel Lofts
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nicksiders
419 posts
Feb 05, 2006
7:56 PM
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I have tried to keep an open mind about the color influence in the breeding process of the rollers, but what I am asking is when do we stop calling them rollers and when do we drop the word "performing" or even the word "flying" as it is applied to rollers. The Show Roller people have done well in making sure everyone understands thier breed is not a performance breed or even a flying breed and I appreciate them for that.
I am sure you have viewed the Eggbid site. I have found all kinds of concoptions that the breeder is selling as a flying and/or performing roller. My only wish is they use the name of what they breed into the roller and not the name "roller". If they breed a starling pigeon to a roller they should call it a starling. The name "roller" denotes performance of a certain type; the name "starling" does not denote a particular performance. Invariably when a roller is part of the mix breeding they call the result a roller.
I am asking the people who breed other breeds into the roller to help protect probable or possible buyers of the same with information about what they have breed into the roller.
I guess I have probably said enough on the subject and I am sure I probably have said some stuff in error about the subject. I at times feel offended and I am not sure I have a right to feel offended................but, I do.
Sometimes it is best to shake the dust from your feet and leave.....LOL See ya later, Kenny
Last Edited by nicksiders on Feb 05, 2006 8:04 PM
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Norm_Knox
50 posts
Feb 05, 2006
8:51 PM
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Hey guys Norm here,
I just have something to say. I respect all breeders regardless of what breeds they have or what they are crossing into their birds. When I first got my pigeons about 3 1/2 years ago I was told that they are out of the best families around. With their fancy colors and perfect types (for my taste at least) I fell in love with them because I like pretty colored birds. BUT in the air they were poop, zero. So I got rid of them and got me good birds (PERFORMERS) and I still like the color but if they are not performing to my taste they are out. So please I ask of everyone to keep the name Birmingham ( Performing ) roller to it’s true mining. I apologize if I offended anyone because at the end of the day we all LOVE pigeons, we just have different taste. Thank you very much. Later
Norm
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big al
213 posts
Feb 06, 2006
7:37 AM
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Hey Kenny,
I've been trying to get hold of you.
No luck. :-)
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See you in the roll!
Big Al
"High Plains Spinner Loft"
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Ballrollers
260 posts
Feb 06, 2006
8:47 AM
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Hey guys Cliff here,
I just have something to say. I respect all breeders regardless of what families they have. When I first got back into pigeons 3 1/2 years ago. I was interested in PERFORMANCE so I got a purebred roller family of Pensoms and Plonas. I was told that they were out of the best families around. With their boring colors and perfect types (for my taste at least) I fell in love with them and I believed in their pedigrees. But, in the air they were poop; zero. I raised over 100 birds an kept them 18 months. Nothing. So I got rid of them and got me some good birds (PERFORMERS) from guys around me that are winning regionally, nationally and internationally. They have some fancy colors that I never saw in rollers before and I still like the colors but if they are not performing to my taste they are out. So please, I ask of everyone, to keep the name of Birmingham (Performing) roller to its true meaning. Don't sell tumblers as rollers just because they have a pedigree. I apologize if I offended anyone because at the end of the day, we all LOVE pigeons, we just have different taste. Thank you very much. Later,
Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Feb 06, 2006 9:00 AM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
369 posts
Feb 06, 2006
11:04 AM
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If it flys and rolls, it is a Performing Roller. End. Of. Story.
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nicksiders
422 posts
Feb 06, 2006
12:06 PM
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If it flies and returns to the loft it is a Homer..........come on Brian.
It is not that simple and there is more to the story.
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
370 posts
Feb 06, 2006
1:34 PM
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Come on? WTF is that suppose to mean? Let me spell this out for you again then......If a bird flys and performs, and that performance is that it rolls over backwards enough for it to not look like a dishrag tumbler.....IT IS A PERFORMING ROLLER. What is so difficult for anyone to understand about that?
See, some punk ass people think the (Edited: See Posting Policy) damned roller world is all theirs to call what they want. Its like saying, if you cross something with a roller, it ain't a roller anymore, so call it what you crossed it with. If it would roll, it is a roller, whether anyone likes it or not. It sure the (Edited: See Posting Policy) ain't a pouter..lol. I tell you, the ignorance and inability for some people in the hobby to not be able to reason with clarity and common sense is both sickening and comical.
I hoped you were smarter than Nick, seriously. Maybe I am underestimating your intentions. Why are so many people so damn blind and naive? This has nothing to do with Birmingham roller history or crossing them. It has to do with what is a performing roller? If the damn thing rolls, it's a roller! The pigeon purity police can make their pitiful lives feel meaningful by taking it upon themselves to surgically dissect a person's loft and come to their own conclusions as to their background. Who give's a rats ass. Do they roll? If so....it must be a pouter or a trumpeter right....LOL. And even if the dumbass roller nazi's draw such a conclusion, they will look like even more like dumbasses to the world when the crowd looks up and sees these birds rolling, then wonder, why did the roller nazi police say these weren't rollers. Sure looks like they are rolling to me.
BMC
Last Edited by Tony Chavarria on Feb 07, 2006 7:41 AM
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Shaun
271 posts
Feb 06, 2006
2:13 PM
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Ouch, Brian, that was a tetchy one! To be honest, though, is there really the disagreement you suggest is out there? All the past debates on this site have been about the ins and outs of the Birmingham Roller, not just the generic, physical act of rolling. Surely, regardless of how that pigeon got there, so long as it rolls properly, it's fair to call it a roller. I don't think this is one for the purists or Birmingham Roller police (me included) to get worked up about. Mind you, there is some sense in differentiating between tumblers and rollers - I remember donkey's years ago, asking what the difference was. The simple answer was that the roller does it quicker and for longer. That still seems to hold true today.
Shaun
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motherlodelofts
584 posts
Feb 06, 2006
2:28 PM
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Brian
I "KNOW" that you know the difference !!!!!!.
You are pointing the ingnorance finger the wrong direction and you are doing the new guys a diservise by co-sighning that BS.
I see that Nicks eyes were opened over there(Slobbers)and looks to me like he said to himself "now I get what ol Kenny and Scott have been trying to say" a drunk monkey could figure out what is going over there, and it has little to do with anything but hijacking a breeds name and pulling the wool over peoples eyes.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Feb 06, 2006 3:05 PM
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motherlodelofts
585 posts
Feb 06, 2006
2:31 PM
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Cliff wrote :
Don't sell tumblers as rollers just because they have a pedigree.
I agree 100 0/0 , but what does this have to do with this topic ?
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Feb 06, 2006 3:11 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
371 posts
Feb 06, 2006
3:15 PM
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If it flys and rolls, it is a performing roller. It flys and performs the action of rolling....therefore the name performing and roller are beyond justified as it is accurately describing the action the bird portrays. The topic that Nick initiated was in regards to calling birds performing rollers. If you want to turn this into a Birmingham-hate all others thread, then be my guest. The topic wasn't in regards to whether a bird is a Birmingham roller or not. I think we have all heard everyone's point of view on that topic before.
Question:
If a roller doesn't roll, is it still a roller? Is it a performing roller?
If a pigeon rolls adequately, is it not a roller?
Case in point, if I crossed one of my Wests with one of my Rollers, and produced a bird that rolls, it is a roller, not a tumbler. Tumblers tumble in single or double flips. Rollers roll.
BMC
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motherlodelofts
587 posts
Feb 06, 2006
3:20 PM
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"Case in point, if I crossed one of my Wests with one of my Rollers, and produced a bird that rolls, it is a roller, not a tumbler. Tumblers tumble in single or double flips. Rollers roll."
Oaky dokie , sounds like something would have found in my loft at one time (when I was twelve LOL)
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Feb 06, 2006 3:21 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
372 posts
Feb 06, 2006
3:32 PM
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I give up. The world is yours. Enjoy.
I'm out.
BMC
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motherlodelofts
588 posts
Feb 06, 2006
4:00 PM
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Now you know that I luv ya bro
Scott
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Slobberknocker
78 posts
Feb 06, 2006
4:12 PM
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Scott,
I was going to stay out of this one as I see the original point was to try and start another debate, but since you have called me out, once again, I will make this brief post.
First, I have to thank you and Kenny AGAIN for visiting both my personal site and the NPRA site. Your continued support is much appreciated.
One question though. If, as you guys so continuously proclaim, what we talk about on the NPRA forum is so offensive to you, why do you keep coming back?
I also am not sure why you would visit my personal site or the NPRA site (they are completely seperate entities not connected to one another) if what you see is so bothersome and repulsive to you?
Bob
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Phantom1
116 posts
Feb 06, 2006
4:21 PM
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Hey guys -
I'm just curious to know what it is that's "going on over there". Enlighten me. I thought on the (Edited: Read Posting Policy), people were talking about things that pertained to the sections set up to allow such discussions.
Again, as a Moderator that can't access the forum from my work PC, I'm VERY interested to learn about any slanderous or false statements/discussions that I may have missed.
Yours in the hobby,
Eric
Last Edited by Tony Chavarria on Feb 07, 2006 7:39 AM
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highroller
100 posts
Feb 06, 2006
5:33 PM
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Eric,
What's going on over there is that a question not pertaining to roller genetics was asked under the roller genetics heading. See following statement from the original poster......What I posted are Catalonian Tumblers and Brunner Pouters, not Rollers.. sorry, I have them in the wrong folder. I guess I should have put them in "General Pigeon Genetics."
And guess what...those on the forum had the audacity to discuss it and answer it there. Can you believe it!?!?!? How dare they!!?? Then a pigeon police jumped in and is trying to infer that they're crossing rollers on everything else over there again.
Must be getting boring in here again and they need to stir things up LOL. How petty, how sad, how.............
Dan
Last Edited by highroller on Feb 06, 2006 6:07 PM
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Phantom1
117 posts
Feb 06, 2006
6:20 PM
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Well Dan, I'm mortified! LOL!
Is that it? Are we done here?
Yours in the "Cross"....Just kidding...come on guys...
Eric
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motherlodelofts
589 posts
Feb 06, 2006
6:47 PM
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Why Bob ? Because I enjoy it !
Scott
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Phantom1
118 posts
Feb 06, 2006
6:53 PM
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Hey Scott!
First, I like you man. I hope you and everyone else on this forum knows that and understands the respect that I have for you. You ALWAYS offer any newcomer or oldie a word of advice or direction...including myself. The topics that don't relate to the "color" topic, you jump right in and offer guidance or advice...And for that, I'll hold you in the highest regards and respect.
But...Please, for my sake and everyone else's, elaborate why it is that you "enjoy it". Is it because you...well...before I assume anything, I'll let you do the talking.
Yours in the hobby,
Eric
Last Edited by Phantom1 on Feb 06, 2006 6:54 PM
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Mongrel Lofts
128 posts
Feb 07, 2006
6:22 AM
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Hey Guys,
Odd, I never mentioned any other site.. I was talking to Nick about Toy stencil.. Its true that most of these odd colored birds don't just popup in the breed.. They are crossed into the breed from other breeds.. I agree with BMC if you cross hollycroppers into your rollers and you get one rolling again, its a roller of some kind. Its a new creation, American colored Performance roller or something? I don't know why the fact that you guys are crossing breeds into the roller around the country to try and add colors always stir things up.. Its what is done to make odd colors, fact.. I was just talking to a new guy that was seeing with his own eyes how it is done.. Whats wrong with talking about how crossing rollers on other breeds is how they make the odd new colors.. It is how they come about isn't it?? Mongrel Lofts
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Phantom1
121 posts
Feb 07, 2006
6:46 AM
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Kenny,
You're 100% correct! Crosses are being made - TODAY! Thought we'd already addressed that. Anything else? Or do we all need to entertain that discussion - again? We could all elaborate on our beliefs of what colors, factors, and patterns we each believe originally existed in the roller from the get go. Why though?
Don't label me or anyone asking questions about "how to get a certain color or factor". Just because the question is asked doesn't mean the person is doing it....or using another breed to do it. But you are correct - it IS going on today in many backyards.
You're also correct in that you did not mention another forum...it was Scott. I was addressing him and any other member of this forum that might be able to enlighten me on the goings on over there.
Anything else we need to address?
Yours in the hobby,
Eric
Last Edited by Phantom1 on Feb 07, 2006 6:57 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
452 posts
Feb 07, 2006
8:22 AM
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“Nick,
Although I may be tempted to question the motive for your questions on the other site, you were very respectful and no one there wanted you to leave. It was someone from this site however that hijacked the subject and tried to start something. I was not referring to you in my post.
Dan “
Hey Dan, What do you mean “someone from this site however that hijacked the subject and tried to start something”?
The only one “from this site” is me and I rarely if ever go to any other sites for the discussion, and when I do, I sure do not cause any trouble whatsoever at all.
Generally speaking, before someone can post on a topic on any sites’ board, they have to “join” i.e. sign-up. That happens on this and any other site with a discussion board, so I am having a hard time understanding how “someone from this site is trying to start something” on another board, when posters are technically a “member” of any site they post on.
I feel your post either intentionally or un-intentionally attempts to generate a spirit of “us versus them” and therefore fractionalizes those who visit this site into becoming involved in a petty turf war or in other words a thinly disguised effort to channel traffic away from this site to the benefit another one.
For others who visit and read this All Roller Talk forum, I tend to let some things through the moderating editing process when it is between “members”, but Dan’s post was something too egregious to let go. I will not let this site be used as a cheap portal to direct traffic elsewhere.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by Tony Chavarria on Feb 07, 2006 8:23 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
456 posts
Feb 07, 2006
11:32 AM
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Hey Dan, thanks for being sensitive to my point. I understand better where you were coming from as well. Of course you are welcome on this site and I appreciate the time you have invested in it.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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nicksiders
427 posts
Feb 07, 2006
12:19 PM
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I want everyone to understand I have no hidden agenda. I did not go into another site to invoke controversy nor do I try to do it here. If I have it was truly by accident and it difinitly not what I intended.
You do not have to be on the defensive when talking to this old man.......I have nothing to gain and I have nothing to prove. Breed a snake with a roller I don't care, the only question I have is what then does it become.
We have gotten away from the idea that there are certian kinds of rollers (ie American Rollers, Birmingham Rollers, Oriental Rollers, etc.) and now we have lumped all of these together under the name "roller" seemingly to give us license to breed anything into them and as long as they roll they are rollers (performing rollers). If I breed an Oriental Roller with a Birmingham Roller do I get a Perfoming Roller? The answer is yes, but it is no longer an Oriental or Birmingham Roller and this is where I begin to question: Is this what we ought to be doing today? What do we call the new breed? A Performing Roller? What kind of performing roller? We can't call it a Birmingham, can we?
I do not know the answers to this and I probably will never have a clear mind set either way.
I also know some history and realize that in the beginning of every modern day breed of pigeon it was "bastardized" to get what we have now. Part of my question is does that mean we have license to continue "bastardizing" the breeds. AND if we do, shouldn't we give them another name to identify them as being something different?
The words "performing roller" in my mind is a term to describe the American Roller; Birmingham Roller; Oreintal Roller, Central Asiatic Roller, the Parlor Roller, and others as a group of specific breeds and not a specific breed on its own.
I am all of those things mentioned (nieve, stupid, and ignorant), but I am not mean spirited as you may have precieved me to be.
Nuff said........probably too much (LOL)
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Ballrollers
263 posts
Feb 07, 2006
2:37 PM
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Scott,
That one little phrase, pulled out of context, may not seem relevant. But look at the whole post to Norm. The point is that by merely switching the references to "colors" in rollers with "pedigrees" in rollers, we end up with the same situation. The real issue we all have is the misrepresentation of the performance of the birds, not whether it is the color of the birds or the pedigree that has been used to misrepresent the birds with regard to performance. The sin is no greater in either case.
YITS Cliff
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
457 posts
Feb 07, 2006
2:52 PM
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Hey Nick, I understand the frustration and confusion with this issue when so many are talking past each other all the time. To get a handle on this topic, I think it is something we have to do our own research on and follow the facts where they lead. So...What IS a Birmingham Roller?
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by Tony Chavarria on Feb 07, 2006 3:01 PM
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Ballrollers
265 posts
Feb 07, 2006
4:23 PM
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In order for any organization to survive and prosper, new members must be integrated into the hobby. The NBRC, as our parent organization, is made up of members with many different and varied interest and experience levels, all pertaining to Birmingham/Performance/Color Rollers. However, there seems to be a creeping ugliness invading our hobby, perpetrated by a few, that would have us believe that there are certain concepts or protocols that must be accepted in the hobby. To their way of thinking, if you don't believe their way, then you are committing some kind of crime against humanity, or sin against the state. Blinded by extreme arrogance, self-righteousness, and insecurity, they would have everyone believe exactly as they do.
Each of us has a completely valid right to express our opinions. Each of us has the "God-given" right to make our own mistakes in the hobby and to learn things in our own way. Each of us have paid our dues and are a member in good standing with the NBRC. Each of us has the option to validate our birds in the sky, for Fall Fly and/or World Cup judges, or to enjoy our birds in our back yards. If we choose not to compete........it is no sin! We are no less a member of the NBRC. Our opinions are no less valid! All men who are interested in and enjoy these grand little birds are welcome in the NBRC and in the hobby, and are equal members; whether they compete or not, and regardless of the famly of birds they fly.
We hear or read, from time to time, from a few dedicated, passionate and successful flyers that birds of "this color" or "that color" are not real Birminghams. But since the flying part of our hobby is strictly performance-based, if they perform well enough, have they not met the definition of a Birmingham Roller? Have any of these men who are so vehemently opposed to "this color" or "that color" flown/handled/raised any of the families of Birmingham Rollers that express rare colors and are found in the winner's circles today? If they did, like so many others have found, they would find a family of birds that perform to their highest standards, just like the birds sitting in their lofts right now.
If we continue to condemn, ridicule, intimidate, and invalidate our fellow members of the hobby and the NBRC, whether new or old, we will not do our hobby the justice it truly deserves. We do not always see the harm we do to others, and to the hobby, when we engage in such behavior. And if we persist, we will, in fact, continue to cause good people to leave our ranks and go elsewhere, somewhere where their opinions are respectfully tolerated, just as they have in the past. Did I say, "kiss ass" or to "not disagree". NO! HELL NO! But we need to treat each man with respect, the same kind of respect that we show members of our families. To many of us, the NBRC and the men in this hobby IS our extended family. It is not so much WHAT we say, but HOW we say it. I have heard it said many times, "You must earn respect." And I can see that in action on this forum. But we must allow men to be men; to make their own mistakes' to find their own paths.
There are no "icons" or "roller gods" on this list.....just men. D#%& it! Let's act like men; men who are members in the same club' men who all strain our necks every day, just to watch these "frigging little birds".
YITS, Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Feb 07, 2006 4:27 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
459 posts
Feb 07, 2006
4:58 PM
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Hey Cliff, here is a quote I heard recently: "a wise man learns from his own mistakes, a genius learns from others".
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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rollerpigeon1963
60 posts
Feb 07, 2006
5:43 PM
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Cliff,
I had a long winded reply to your post. But to keep it short. I agree with some that you wrote. But I disagree more with what you posted. And another thing please leave the NBRC out of this. Because there is a lot of people on this list that are not members of the NBRC. Which is ok but I for one would like everyone to join the NBRC.
But I know there is some people on this list that see some of these guys as ICON'S in the hobby. Just as some see James Turner, Jerry Higgins, and others the same way.
If I didn't have John Bender and a few others helping me in the begining. I wouldn't be here today. Yes John Bender!! he has some color and always has. But he is still a good friend of mine. And someone I can trust. Same with my good friends Kenny Billings, Scott Campbell, Ellis McDonald, Bobby Bradley, ETC, ETC, ETC, ETC, so many more that earns my respect!!!
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
463 posts
Feb 07, 2006
7:37 PM
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Hey Dan, I do not feel threatened at all. I just like all you guys on my site more!! LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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fhtfire
330 posts
Feb 07, 2006
10:35 PM
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There are purists in any type of breeding of birds, livestock, K-9...you name it and there are purists. Thank god that there are..or we would have a bunch of mut dogs, Texas long horn black angus and Macaw blue Jay parrots..LOL>..A purist is one who pratices or urges stict correctness. Correctness to many breeders...well..is having strict breeding guidlines. Meaning..they want to keep a breed pure. Meaning..keeping out anything in that breed that is not pure. SO...crossing a different breed into an established breed is a sin in many breeding circles. What if everyone decided to breed another breed into the labrador retriever...in time an established breed could be ruined. Or how about this...some do and some don't bring in another breed into an established breed...but a lot of individuals do..just to change a thing or two...then they pass there unpure breed to someone who has a pure breed saying that there cross breed is a pure bred dog. Then down the road this poor guy who has his cross breed bred to a pure breed and the pups all turn out to look like pure breeds...then a couple more generations...the dog starts to throw some of the faults from the original cross...in a nut shell it could cause falts in a breed. Especially if the genes are spread out all over from lots of breeding. You are doing and injustice to a well established breed of dog.
Now lets convert that to pigeons...If someone wants to breed color into there loft..so be it...keep it in your loft...In the old days that would not have mattered as much to play around in your own loft..but now that we are modernized and I can ship birds across the US in a couple of days... cross bred birds could spread like wild fire. The key is letting individuals who are buying birds know that they are not pure...that the colors are a rare color that was brought into the birmingham roller by crossing another breed...XYZ years ago. Let me put it this way. Lets say that Tony was not selling RUby Rollers but...rare color birds...for the amount of birds shipped all over this country...you could ruin the purity of a Birmingham roller in many lofts. IT is one thing to say they are a cross and it is another to claim that they are purebreds when they are not.
I raised Champion La Mancha Goats for many years. I would never think of crossing a purebred goat with another breed and say that it is a la mancha. It is just plain wrong and I myself could not do it. If I sold a cross bred goat to another breeder and said that it was pure...and they found out that it was not...they would ring my neck! LOL!! Even though it may look like a La Mancha...it is not..it is a cross breed...period. It is not uncommon to cross goats either. La Mancha goats do not have a high milk fat..so some will cross a Nubian goat with a la Mancha just to raise the milk fat if they are in a pure milk production setting....but these goats would never be sold as a purebred even if they look and acted like a pure bred.
Of course...almost every breed of animal was crossed..way back when...but once a breed is established and the bar is set...you try nothing but to improve the breed by breeding the best quality animal to the best quality animal within the breed.
The fact is that people can do what they want in the own back yard...and I myself...like I said have an Andalusian COck in my breeder loft and I have birds in my kit box...and they roll pretty good...but I myself will never sell them as a Pure Birmingham roller. They will be sold..if they ever are...as a Andalusian roller. The fact is just admitting that it is a cross. Instead of a mongrel...just say I have a bunch of Birminham roller crosses...that roll damn good. Or I have a lab/pit bull cross...or a quarter horse thorough bred cross....Don't you think that if a golden lab had black spots...it may be a lab/dalmation cross...or how about a lion and a tiger......isn't that a ligar!!!LOL!!LOL!!! It is not about color or no color...it is about keeping a breed pure. Breed purple pigeons...who cares...I would like to see it roll...but do not call it a birmingham roller. Call it a purple, performing, roller pigeon. LOL!!!
Again, it is not a bad thing to bring in color at all..it is only bad when you can't admit that there was a cross in there somewhere. In the short term you may get somewhere..but in the long term it could hurt an established breed. You could have a cross that rolls for two or three generations...then all of a sudden...the roll is gone...Look at the Toggenberg goat...you can't drink the milk..it tastes like shit....why..because many moons ago..two breed were crossed to get the beautiful brown and white color...but in the long term it ruined the milk. It is a genetic fault..but the color was more important. You could breed back to other goats to get the milk back..but you lose the set color forever.
Rock and ROLL
paul
Last Edited by fhtfire on Feb 07, 2006 10:37 PM
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nicksiders
432 posts
Feb 07, 2006
10:56 PM
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Goats!?............LOL
You had a chicken flying on your A team.........LOL
Good post, Paul
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Ballrollers
267 posts
Feb 08, 2006
2:55 PM
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rollerpigeon 1963, Tony, and others,
The only birds that I am interested in are the ones being validated in the air. The best way we can do that is in the comps. The only men able to compete in the Fall Fly are members of the NBRC. I don't know about your region, but in my region, 99.9% of the World Cup and Fall Fly flyers are NBRC members also. So if we are talking about flying and competition, then we are talking about the NBRC, which is probably, what Tony, 90%+ of your posters?
The men that fly; the men that compete are the men who earn the respect for their birds, whatever their color. Performance has little to do with color. It is much more about depth, velocity, kitting and frequency. Men that tinker with colors and do not fly for a judge; well, they are in question with regard to their birds' performance, nothing more. Must we condemn everyone who does not, or cannot, fly in competitions?
If a "new guy" gets birds that perform, birds that spin straight dep, and clean, why would you feel bad, regardless of what color they were? The only time we should feel bad in the hobby, is when a new guy gets birds that don't perform, and that happens as much, or more, from pedigree birds than from color birds.
Do we care more about feather colors or performance? We care about performance! "WE", meaning the men who fly and care enough to fly their very best for the judge. But "WE" are not the only segment of the roller fancy! There are men who don't care to fly; men who don't have 20 quality birds to fly; men who do breed only for fancy paint jobs; men who breed only for pedigrees, etc. They are a silent majority in the hobby. All of us make up the roller fancy. All our "opinions" have their place, and we all need to respect each other's space and different perspectives about these birds. That's all I'm saying. We all admire these birds; some for performance, some for color alone, some for pedigree. Whatever the reason, it is each individual's right to participate in the hobby and in the NBRC based on that reason. And that's good enough for me.
YITS, Cliff
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nicksiders
436 posts
Feb 08, 2006
3:15 PM
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Cliff,
I understand where you are coming from and appreciate the post. I believe that rollers are a performance breed and only should be bred for performance. Breeding them for anything else should be discouraged, but on the same token they are the breeder's birds and if a breeder has different ideas about what thier responsibilities to the breed are so be it. They are entitled to thier space, but should not expect that everyone will agree with them as I will not expect them to agree with me.
Last Edited by nicksiders on Feb 08, 2006 3:20 PM
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Ballrollers
269 posts
Feb 09, 2006
7:45 AM
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Nick,
I understand where you are coming from when you say that men should be discouraged from crossing breeds. You don't do it, I don't do it; neither of us would dream of crossing a breed for a color. Some families of birds just have moe "color options" than others, but "WE" did not put them there, and in many cases they have been there for many decades. But wouldn't we be more effective as a hobby and as an organization to put our energies into encouraging men to fly and compete with their birds to validate their performance? To "show" them how much fun they are missing? To show them other ways of enjoying their rollers?
We don't need pigeon police! We need more understanding and less "attitude" with those men who are choosing other ways of enjoying their rollers. You and I don't breed our rollers for anything but performance, but I accept the fact that not all roller breeders feel that way. Is it really benefitting the hobby or the NBRC or anyone else, for some guys to jump on these men and drive them away because they disagree with us? And in the process other good men get fed up and leave or vow never to participate in competitions. What good is that? I understand the motives behind the "purist" perspective, but I disagree totally with the way they are going about things. These guys do not realize the damage they do to the sport and its organizations by disrespecting men in the hobby who are in it for different reasons. I would prefer to encourage them to investigate other opportunities available in the sport for men who fly and compete. Invite them to attend local flys etc.
For example, if your son took a test and he incorrectly answers 4 questions out of 10. Response option 1. "What a dumb ass. Why would you answer that way? You got FOUR WRONG! I don't even know why I send you to school. You're grounded until you can do better." Response option 2. "Good work! You got 6 correct. Let's see what we can do so you can improve you score next time." Which of these examples best illustrates the method being used today in the sport by the purists, to educate and coach other men in the sport who are not interested in flying rollers, but instead breed out-crossing for color?
Guys, we are shooting ourselves in the foot each and every time we condemn any man who disgrees with "our" vision of what breeding Birmingham Rollers means. If we can welcome these guys and just get them to fly, the judge will score their birds and hopefully plant the seds that will blossom into a edicated roller flyer. Then he may choose to change the way he does things. Isn't that our goal? To get more men into the flying end of this sport?
YITS, Cliff
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nicksiders
440 posts
Feb 09, 2006
9:41 AM
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I strongly agree that there are ways to show disagreement without hostility and many of us has to work on providing an invironment that is not so hostile. I regret that sometimes I may be the one who is putting people off and I am going to work to change that.
I can understand where many of the hardcore people are coming from and you will note none of them have this attitude selfishly. They strongly believe they are protecting the breed and how they come across to others is not thier concern. But, on the same hand if you ask them for advise they are quick to respond and hold back no secrets.
I believe there is room enough for everybody in this hobby and in this site and like in life you got to be prepared for some strong opposition to your views and be prepared to do battle in debate. To hike up your boots and run away takes all the fun away(lol).
That is one of the reason I admire you as many others do. You take the heat and you can give the heat and your still here. Thank you for that because nobody learns if there is no opposition.
Your friend - Nick
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Ballrollers
270 posts
Feb 09, 2006
11:24 AM
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Nick, You have a great attiude, which reveals humility, an open mind and you demonstrate a willingness to understand others' point of view, all of which denote strength of character. I look forward to meeting you some day under a kit of birds...yours, mine or somebody else's!
Buds in the sport, (BITS!)LOL!
Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Feb 10, 2006 6:15 AM
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Pali View Lofts
15 posts
Feb 10, 2006
1:43 AM
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This calls for a GROUP HUG!
LOL!
PVL
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