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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
What IS a Birmingham Roller? Just The Facts
What IS a Birmingham Roller? Just The Facts
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
458 posts
Feb 07, 2006
2:55 PM
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Hey Nick, I understand the frustration and confusion with this issue when so many are talking past each other all the time. To get a handle on this topic, I think it is something we have to do our own research on and follow the facts where they lead. So...
What is a Birmingham Roller?
...following my research, upto this point, what I know is that the Birmingham Roller comes in 2 color series; Blue and Ash Red.
I know that a true and properly bred Birmingham Roller performs in such a manner as there is no equal to it.
I know the look of a Birmingham Roller, see my Ruby Roller gallery.
Am I off base with my assessment of what a Birmingham Roller is? Is there any evidence supporting otherwise? Perhaps, but I am looking for the evidence that suggests that there are more colors or "rare" colors to be found in true Birmingham Rollers.
I will continue my research...if anyone has information to backup my conclusion that there is only the Blue and Ash Red in BR's please let me know. Also, if anyone has information as to evidence for "rare colors" in true Birmingham Rollers, please let me know that as well so I can take a look at it.
My position is that the ideal Birmingham Roller is identifiable by these 3 key and easily made observations:
1-Physical Characteristics
2-Ash Red and Blue series color
3-Performance abilities
The genetic make-up of the true Birmingham Roller as a breed is the proper balance of these 3 points.
When I breed towards the "ideal", I am attempting to ensure I don't violate the 3 keys by deviating away from them in any way.
To do so would change what I understand a true Birmingham Roller to be.
I welcome constructive comments and not dogmatic assertions. I seek to develop my own understanding and clarify my position of what my research has shown me what a Birmingham Roller to actually be.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Fanaddic
4 posts
Feb 07, 2006
4:54 PM
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Looking at your thoughts, I can only guess that the true Birmingham to you was created on such a date as recorded by who? What date did the final cross between other flying/performing breeds take place to create your “true” Birmingham?
I don’t think that anyone can give this exact date, as it doesn’t exist. We can guess from articles a rough time line but whose to say that there was not cross breeding for performance going on by some other breeder at that time or after? Who’s to say the birds you hold dear to your heart are not the product of further crosses? It is most probable that the colors you feel define a real Birmingham were the only ones back in the day because the challenge at the time was to create the performance not the color and were there all these other colors available?
Why is it inconceivable that in today’s day and age that there are breeders out there who see the challenge of adding a color gene to the Birmingham. It means going away from the breed as you know it and then once the gene is secured refocusing on the performance and structure of the Birmingham. After several generations you will have the performance standard of a Birmingham and structure. Simple.
I guess my problem is seeing were the Birmingham which was a cross of several roller/tumbler/ endurance birds was finalized as a breed with out the possibility of further improvement, be it rolling, structure, or color.
Its human nature to want to change and improve to ones liking, in this case color. Why is this wrong if the breeder is still bringing back the bird to meet what is considered a Birmingham in performance and physical characteristics?
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
460 posts
Feb 07, 2006
5:12 PM
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Hey Fanaddic, is there anything else you would like to add before I respond? Do you have any historical or factual data that you can provide that counters anything I have said as of yet?
I haven't seen anything in your post to indicate that you have any, that's why I am asking. I want to keep this thread as much to the "facts" as we know them, not as we wish them to be or twist historical data to muddy the issue.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Fanaddic
5 posts
Feb 07, 2006
5:26 PM
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I guess I was looking for the facts from you to answer my question on the dates the the birmigham was made offical. And asking the question that with the facts you know about the breed that makes it inconcievable for further change to the breed as far as color goes. Not looking to start a fine argumentive thread, but figure out what the breed is all about as I'm new to it and don't seem to find such arguments going on with other breeds as far as new colors.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
461 posts
Feb 07, 2006
5:52 PM
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Hey Fanaddic, my intention with this thread is to "follow the facts" as we know them, not what I wish them or anyone else wishes them to be! LOL
I will not accept any argumentative posts on this thread, they will be deleted. The hope is for those with something to offer or having valid questions such as yours to air them out with me in absolute control so that no one is insulted, made fun of, put down or feel intimidated by having a differing position on this topic.
I am asking anyone posting to be intellectually honest about their position and not demean others because we dont agree with them. Keep posts short and TO THE POINT.
Direct all questions to me, not anyone else. If you want to talk off forum, you can email me directly at: Support@Roller-Pigeon.Com
I will do my best to make this thread as enjoyable and educational as possible.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
462 posts
Feb 07, 2006
7:27 PM
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My Responses to questions presented by fanaddic:
QUESTION
“Looking at your thoughts, I can only guess that the true Birmingham to you was created on such a date as recorded by who”?
MY RESPONSE
According to “The Pigeon” by Wendell Levi, P207 he documents the first mention of “Birmingham Rollers” by Fulton in 1876 “…in a book quite complete upon most breeds…” Levi also documents Lyell 1887 making mention of them in his book p317. Lastly we have Woods making mention as well in 1895 p.162
To prove the point that the Birmingham Roller was already considered a breed we just need to rely on these writings which documents their existence and so can safely say it became a breed no later than 1876 based on historical documents.
QUESTION
What date did the final cross between other flying/performing breeds take place to create your “true” Birmingham? I don’t think that anyone can give this exact date, as it doesn’t exist.
MY RESPONSE
The date exists, it was just not documented or records not discovered or no longer exist. However, exact date is not needed to make the important point that the Birmingham Roller was already considered a breed by at least 1876.
QUESTION
We can guess from articles a rough time line but whose to say that there was not cross breeding for performance going on by some other breeder at that time or after?
RESPONSE
Anything is possible, but let’s use the facts we have, not conjecture in hopes that it will provide the basis to prove some other point we want to believe.
QUESTION
Who’s to say the birds you hold dear to your heart are not the product of further crosses?
RESPONSE
Can you provide some evidence they are products of crossing as you suggest? It’s you who has to prove that what I am saying is untrue.
QUESTION
It is most probable that the colors you feel define a real Birmingham were the only ones back in the day because the challenge at the time was to create the performance not the color and were there all these other colors available?
RESPONSE
In D. Kowalski’s book “True Spinning Rollers II” p212, 213 he documents the two colors found in Birmingham Rollers: Ash Red and Blue.
Once the roll is established it can/will deteriorate and be lost through cross breeding or just bad selection of stock. If there are 3 keys as I mentioned before as to what a BR is, any crossing is to compromise the traits/characteristics that define the BR as a unique breed.
If additional colors were in the BR at the time I have not seen this documented anywhere. Please let me know if there is any such documentation
QUESTION
Why is it inconceivable that in today’s day and age that there are breeders out there who see the challenge of adding a color gene to the Birmingham. It means going away from the breed as you know it and then once the gene is secured refocusing on the performance and structure of the Birmingham. After several generations you will have the performance standard of a Birmingham and structure.
RESPONSE
To begin with, by crossing you no longer have a BR, you have (here goes…) a mongrel. (there, I said it!) LOL Once you have crossed, you have compromised 2 of the keys: established color and performance characteristics.
If the primary purpose of the BR as a breed is its performance, how can an intellectually honest person cross with a non-performing breed and then come back later and say that bird is an original BR based on historical precedence?
Here is an extreme example of what I mean, suppose we cross a BR with a Fantail as we want the fan on our BR. So we perfect the fan on the BR, next we start bringing the roll back into it.
So at some point we have a performance based BR with the tail fan of a Fantail and tell anyone who will listen that it is a BR roller cause we secured the fan genetically and then re-secured the roll so that it rolls the same as the original.
With this logic, we could cross every single possible breed of pigeon with a unique characteristic into the BR and call it a BR.
We could have BR’s that race, that are as big a Modenas, that have the crests and feather feet of the trumpeter, that cannot fly like the Parlor. Or even have all these characteristics. Get my point?
QUESTION
I guess my problem is seeing where the Birmingham, which was a cross of several roller/tumbler/ endurance birds was finalized as a breed with out the possibility of further improvement, be it rolling, structure, or color.
MY RESPONSE
The ideal BR exists within the 3 keys I mentioned, is the color ideal wrong, are the other 2? If someone wants to create a new breed and uses the BR for one of its characteristics, that works in my book, but is REALLY a BR? No.
QUESTION
Its human nature to want to change and improve to ones liking, in this case color. Why is this wrong if the breeder is still bringing back the bird to meet what is considered a Birmingham in performance and physical characteristics?
RESPONSE
See previous response
MY SUMMATION
Not one of these questions raises a doubt as to the validity of my position. However, I believe up to now, I have demonstrated that my position is based on reason and logic as well as documented evidence that is readily available to anyone willing to invest in the materials.
To anyone else, please do not ask the same questions that have already been asked. I am still waiting for factual and or historical data to change my position.
Fanaddic, thanks for the questions and being a good sport.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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nicksiders
431 posts
Feb 07, 2006
10:43 PM
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Good post.....I am sure it will be read over and over and chewed on awhile.
Nick
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Fanaddic
6 posts
Feb 08, 2006
4:56 AM
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Not a problem Tony, you didn't seem to be getting any response from either side of the debat. New you were itching to get this rolling.
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Phantom1
123 posts
Feb 08, 2006
5:45 AM
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Tony,
In your research, have you crossed any information on what the performance of the Birmingham Roller was in 1876 and where it is in 2006? Is there a difference? If there is, I'm assuming it would be of higher quality - not lesser. This would sound like a major assumption, so sticking with the Facts, what does your research and documentation indicate? I'm sure you can look in your own loft and see an improvement in your own birds over the past 10 years. Correct?
Eric
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old guy
4 posts
Feb 08, 2006
6:39 AM
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Tony
Interesting, as a former biology teacher I like where this is going. It would be helpful if we could get a complete list of color modifiers that
were available in the original gene pool. (late 1800s) Anyone who thinks they can document any of these should post, along with documentation, so we can get a record going.
Wayne
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Shaun
273 posts
Feb 08, 2006
7:58 AM
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Tony, I note in the popular roller writings which I've read, that brown is mentioned as being rare in the Birmingham Roller, whereas it's one of the three base colours for other pigeons. I would have thought that if brown were rare, it would be fairly easy to make it not so, by breeding for it. Do you think these writers have suggested brown is rare, simply to cover themselves in case one pops up somewhere, not actually having seen it themselves?
Shaun
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Phantom1
124 posts
Feb 08, 2006
8:03 AM
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Hey Shaun!
Excellent question. I could certainly see where "odd" happenings could become a liability for one that truly believes they have pure Birmingham Rollers.
Eric
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Shaun
274 posts
Feb 08, 2006
8:57 AM
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Actually, Eric, I'm just wondering if anyone has seen the elusive brown roller and, if so, how it could be described. What we call red seems to cover many shades; I've got red ones which really would be be better described as brown - sort of milk chocolate colour.
Shaun
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
466 posts
Feb 08, 2006
10:03 AM
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Hello Eric, Let me start with your last question 1st:
QUESTION
I’m sure you can see an improvement in your own birds over the past 10 years. Correct?
MY RESPONSE
Do I see an “improvement” in my birds over the last 10 years? Yes AND No. Yes, the “improvement” I see is in the higher percentages of birds I get through proper selection of breeders that demonstrate more of or maintain the ideal traits I value from my foundation cock “903”.
Did I make the gene pool better? NO. I only had what I started with and selected the traits that best demonstrated the breed ideal as I understood it then and understand it now. The same genes are there today as what I started with 10 years ago: BR genes.
QUESTION
In your research, have you crossed any information on what the performance of the Birmingham Roller was in 1876 and where it is in 2006?
RESPONSE
I have not come across any documentation that mentions this that I can point you to at the moment. Are you aware of any that you can share with all of us?
However, lets reason together and infer from what we do know…If the BR gene pool is the same today as it was in 1876 and hasn’t been crossed into another breed, then the same potential for the roll we see today was available back then as well.
So any difference in performance of the breed is more a result of the purposes the breeder had in mind at the time. Much as it is now.
QUESTION
Is there a difference? If there is, I'm assuming it would be of higher quality - not lesser.
RESPONSE
No. Through selection we can develop a family of deep rollers, shallow rollers, seldom etc. as it fits the goals of the breeder, i.e. a competitive flyer will select stock with different performance characteristics than a breeder who does not fly competitively as he may want rollers that roll deep with no desire to race back to the kit.
Its all the same BR gene pool with some traits selected over others, is why we can create family strains with certain characteristics we select.
SUMMARY
I get from my Ruby Roller gene pool (Birmingham Rollers) what is already there. Based on how I select my stock will determine to what level I reach in regards to the ideal.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Phantom1
125 posts
Feb 08, 2006
10:33 AM
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Tony,
I'll try to break out your responses as to follow the same format you have been, but need to figure out how to do so as to not take up a whole lot of room (summarize).
In the meantime, I have a hypothetical question to pose. This is based on your SUMMARY point. What if I were to acquire a few pairs of your Ruby Rollers and purposefully elected to move 100% away from the roll. Would they still be Birmingham Rollers? Within this hypothetical situation, there would be no out-crossing to any other birds - period.
Eric
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
467 posts
Feb 08, 2006
10:54 AM
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Eric, I want to stay on topic and not get into hypotheticals that take away from the purpose of this thread, however, here is a brief response:
QUESTION
What if I were to acquire a few pairs of your Ruby Rollers and purposefully elected to move 100% away from the roll. Would they still be Birmingham Rollers? Within this hypothetical situation, there would be no out-crossing to any other birds - period.
MY RESPONSE
Genetically they are still BR but NOT Ruby Rollers as they would not demonstrate the characteristics thay I breed for. Would I buy one from you? No way! LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
468 posts
Feb 08, 2006
11:06 AM
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Hey Shaun, thanks for contributing to the thread.
QUESTION
I note in the popular roller writings which I've read, that brown is mentioned as being rare in the Birmingham Roller, whereas it's one of the three base colours for other pigeons.
I would have thought that if brown were rare, it would be fairly easy to make it not so, by breeding for it. Do you think these writers have suggested brown is rare, simply to cover themselves in case one pops up somewhere, not actually having seen it themselves?
MY RESPONSE
Shaun, I can’t speak to the motivations of others as to why they might say this. I have not seen a brown pigeon in my loft ever. If I did, I would probably short circuit and roll down into a corner of my loft and babble incoherently. LOL
Can you direct me to the material source of your question about brown in BR? Thanks!
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Phantom1
126 posts
Feb 08, 2006
11:17 AM
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Tony,
This is very much on the topic, so I'll continue here. As you have stated, they would still be Birmingham Rollers - they just wouldn't be what you had worked on them to be. So a couple of things come to mind.
First, one could technically have Birmingham Rollers, regardless of their performance, background, color, size, or type. Why would it matter - they don't perform anyway. Yet they're still Birmingham Rollers.
Secondly, you would not be inclined to buy any of those birds from me. Why? Well, they don't agree with your standard of performance. But they're still Birmingham Rollers and could still prove to be of importance. How can we say on paper, a forum, or in a show pen that something is or isn't a Birmingham Roller?
My conclusion to this hypothetical is this...and I've seen and heard it many times...the term "Birmingham" is held as a performance standard more often than it is a breed.
Eric
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Shaun
275 posts
Feb 08, 2006
12:52 PM
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Tony, the subject of brown crossed my mind as I've just been reading Pensom and Kowalski again. On Page 60 of Pensom's book, he includes brown as one of the available colours. However, on page 212 of Kowalski's True Spinning Rollers II, he states: "To show the relationship between common colors, I have compared a comparison chart. It focuses on two of the three basic colors: blue and ash red (the third, brown, is not common in Rollers)".
Perhaps brown was common back in the 1950s, during Pensom's time, but had disappeared by the time that Kowalski wrote his book four decades later. So, I've been wondering does anyone think they have brown rollers and, if so, how do they differ from red?
Shaun
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
469 posts
Feb 08, 2006
4:40 PM
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My Responses to questions presented by Eric
QUESTION
First, one could technically have Birmingham Rollers, regardless of their performance, background, color, size, or type. Why would it matter - they don't perform anyway. Yet they're still Birmingham Rollers.
MY RESPONSE
Eric in order to not have chaos, we agree to have rules; the rule is BR come in Blue and Ash Red, etc. Here is from my original post to start this thread:
“My position is that the ideal Birmingham Roller is identifiable by these 3 key and easily made observations:
1-Physical Characteristics
2-Ash Red and Blue series color
3-Performance abilities
The genetic make-up of the true Birmingham Roller as a breed is the proper balance of these 3 points.
When I breed towards the "ideal", I am attempting to ensure I don't violate the 3 keys by deviating away from them in any way.
To do so would change what I understand a true Birmingham Roller to be”.
To breed anything else is to move away from the ideal. So, in my opinion, doing so violates the breed ideal. I cannot think of a good reason to do this.
QUESTION
Secondly, you would not be inclined to buy any of those birds from me. Why? Well, they don't agree with your standard of performance. But they're still Birmingham Rollers and could still prove to be of importance.
RESPONSE
As to not buying one of your BR, I would only acquire the best birds I could get based on the ideal as I understand it. Acquiring and breeding birds that don’t roll due to bad stock selection would be a waste of my time as BR that have been bred toward the ideal are readily available. I have a feeling you would not buy (or breed) these either.
QUESTION
How can we say on paper, a forum, or in a show pen that something is or isn't a Birmingham Roller?
RESPONSE
I have set a standard based on the facts and data as I understand them and interpret the results and conclusions of the writers. I then choose to accept what I know as the ideal and breed towards it.
If a set of data or facts come out that something does not agree with this understanding, then I will critically look at it and determine if there is enough new information to change my position.
This is the position I am taking in this thread. If I see evidence to change my opinion I will.
QUESTION
My conclusion to this hypothetical is this...and I've seen and heard it many times...the term "Birmingham" is held as a performance standard more often than it is a breed
RESPONSE
If this is the case then the “Birmingham Roller” is misnamed and should be called something more descriptive such as Performing Rollers or something along this line.
Those who take this position have not done the breed any favors and have harmed it if the conclusion someone takes from it is that ANY pigeon that rolls in a certain manner is a BR.
If there is no standard outside the qualities of the roll and this has been the case always, why are there so many who would disagree with that position? Where did they get the idea that the BR is a breed and not a description?
SUMMARY
I am not deriving anything new from this line of questioning that leads me to alter my position as of yet. Thanks for asking them.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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dmitch
34 posts
Feb 08, 2006
8:12 PM
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Good post Tony I like to say the BR is already set as a fix breed.The only thing we are doing is cultivating the breed to get a high rate of quality birds each year by the right selection of matting.I like to say i have yet to see a hight rate of quality rollers by crossing othere breeds into a true BR.Yes you will get bird that will roll but what will be the rate of quality offsring you get each year.
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
471 posts
Feb 09, 2006
6:22 AM
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Hey All, attacks and snide comments will not be allowed on this thread and any time I see them here or any place else on this forum it will be edited and/or removed.
I have learned that when being involved in "debates" and one party begins personal attacks or gets off topic, it is a sign of the absense of substance in his position.
I have worked on my family of Birmingham Rollers since 1993. I raised them for over 12 or 13 years before I ever sold a single bird.
Questioning my motives for this thread is a cheap shot and points to the bankruptcy of the other persons position.
2 times with this thread have I had to delete or edit posts for getting personal.
Lets get back on topic, read my starting post and lets start again.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Phantom1
130 posts
Feb 09, 2006
6:35 AM
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While we're all deciding how best to follow this debate, how about we establish some more ground rules. I, for one, would like to know what the majority of people here would consider a reliable source from which to obtain pertinent information. Many scoff at Bill Pensom's writings, while others only embrace the words, written or expressed, of the men flying in today's world. Can we attempt at making a somewhat comprehensive list?
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
473 posts
Feb 09, 2006
6:47 AM
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Hey Eric, I think it is constructive to suggest materials and sources for our positions and opinions. However, we may still disagree with each others conclusions as to what one person or another truly meant or intended.
However, lets keep that off this thread and put it in a thread called: "Birmingham Roller - Color Debate Source Materials"
Good suggestion.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
492 posts
Feb 21, 2006
5:43 AM
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jerryf 16 posts 21-Feb-06 3:06 AM I have enjoyed the advice, comments and the learned experiences of others.
It is said that rare colored Rollers are the scrounge to the Birmingham name. I disagree. In past rare color discussions I chose not to participate. I can not stay silent. I know this may 'open up a can of worms' again.
I raise unique self colored Rollers in Reduced, Homozygous Indigo, Andalusian, Opal, Stenciled and Red-Yellow Mottles. My Rollers are top quality, small cobby birds that ROLL. To me color adds more pleasure, what a drab loft if all are blue check.
Its been said if a family is developed from intense breeding of rare colored Roller--the result will be Frills or another breed. My family breeds constant Rollers of good Birminham roller type.
Other elements of the Birmingham Roller should be monitored. I have seen Rollers that are crow like--they look like Swifts. Oh yes they roll and are fast but are they "Birmingham Rollers"? If the best and fastest are intensely developed into a family would the end result be Swifts?
I will stop with this: Each to his own, what I do in my back yard is my choice. They roll, look as they should and have great color. Isn't that what it is all about?
Three Oaks Loft
Jerry Fletcher
Last Edited: by jerryf on 2006-02-21 03:07:54.023
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ted 1 post 21-Feb-06 3:59 AM Jeff I am not sure what you are trying to prove here other than stir things up again. The time and place to comment on this if you were truly interested in posting your veiw point would have been in the thread where it was discussed and at that time.
Once again people aren't reading the threads and digesting what is said. No one said if you breed for colour you would get frills.
What was said was that people have had things like frills show up in their loft because of the breeds that were crossed in to get a certain trait. Not that they got frills just because of breeding for colour.
All this post is going to do is get everyone pissed off at one another. I agree that if you have seen birdes that look like swifts they aren't true Birminghams.
My question to you is if they look like a swift why are they any more a Birmingham than a swift. The guys on here aren't trying to tell you what to breed in your own back yard they are just saying their should be a standard on what is called Birmingham and what is a coloured roller.
There are plenty of other pigeons out there that roll and have their own name I am confused as to why you feel so strongly about calling them Birminghams. Why you you want the recognition that you and others have developed something different.
All this discussion serves to do is prove the point of how stubboirn and pig headed we all can be. I hope that Tony reads this post and puts it in the thread where it belongs and doesn't leave it to stand as a new one.
One thing I will agree your birds, your time, do what you want.
Got to Roll.
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Hey Jerry, "Thanks" for posting and participating on the forum.
I do not read anything in your post to persuade me that my position in my original post in the "What Is A Birmingham Roller: Just The Facts" thread should be any different than what I have previously stated.
At best you are applying anecdotal evidence from your experience in your loft to which you created a "rule" that serves your position and are applying it to the argument to prove your point.
At worst, it goes to continue the confusion in the color debate.
Thanks for partricipating, it takes courage to offer your opinion on these controversial topics.
Ted, good post!, I see you "get it", from your reply to Jerry, I see you appear to have a grasp of the "argument".
To All: let it be known that I and others have been accussed of bringing this color topic up in the forum when things "slow down", this could not be further from the truth.
How do they know what "slow down" would mean for this site? There is more that happens on this site than what is being posted in forums.
Just wanted to mention that as Jerrys' post was non- solicited, or encouraged outside of what is available to all on the All Roller Talk forum.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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C.J.
20 posts
Feb 21, 2006
10:45 AM
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First Ted
I agree with what you said. As for Tony anyone who has been coming here for any length of time knows that this debate has been going on for ever even before your site. I think you are doing a great job especially when you take the time to move the post to the proper thread. As long as guys are so passionate about their hobby there will continue to be heated debates. i don't think these debates are a bad thing until the name calling starts and the accusations about a mans character. I just wish everyone would treat people how they want to be treated . There are ways of getting yopur point across without hurting feelings. Put yourself in that persons shoes. My biggest word of adive is like Ted and so many other people have said read the posts through think about them re read them and make sure you fully understand what is being said before you majke judgement. You know what if you don't get something it is alright to ask any of the guys on here to clarify.
Just my two cents!!
C.j.
Last Edited by C.J. on Feb 21, 2006 10:53 AM
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