nicksiders
463 posts
Feb 15, 2006
11:50 PM
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I have two or three kit birds that are ugly, but roll well. They have a long scrawny body with a skinny flat head. Even thier legs a long and scrawny with big ugly feet. Diffinitly not the roller roundness that many of us love.
One of them is close to being my best spinner. Would you ever put it in the breeder loft?......very ugly! The other birds make fun of it, too(LOL)
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Ballrollers
275 posts
Feb 16, 2006
8:18 AM
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Uh Oh, Nick. It sounds like some recessive genes from the roller melting pot of genes has popped up. Or somebody may have outcrossed those birds for some reason in the past and you didn't kow anything about it! LOL! (Just kidding). YITS, Cliff
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Swamp Fox
10 posts
Feb 16, 2006
11:32 AM
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In my opinion, if the bird is from your family of birds, and you don't mind what it looks like on the perch, I would use it as a stock bird. If it is one of your best spinners you have in the air right now, it would definitely be worth trying. Who knows, it might be the one to produce the next BLURR!!
Marion
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birdman
122 posts
Feb 16, 2006
12:08 PM
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Nick,
Does it look ugly while rolling from 400' above ?
Russ
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birdman
123 posts
Feb 16, 2006
2:10 PM
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Nick,
If those ugly birds are your best rollers then I wouldn't worry about what they look like on the perch.
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motherlodelofts
597 posts
Feb 16, 2006
6:28 PM
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Nick generaly my better spinners will look like dog crap , there will be broken secondaries , probaly a broken tail feather or two, and just overall a little raggid looking , but they will be sharp in the eye and feel healthy in the hand , once they go into stock they really go through a transition though once they get a good solid moult.
My stiffs look clean feathered,well moulted and strong and healthy and almost show qaulity.
I read an old artical by Pensom or one of the old timers that when looking for a good youngbird they would go after birds that moulted out poorly and pass on the one's that looked strong and well moulted as the best would generaly have a poor moult in thier first year.
Scott
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
486 posts
Feb 16, 2006
6:55 PM
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Hey Nick, if we are to breed "best to best" when it comes to the roll, and these ugly rollers represent your best then do what you gotta do.
Out of curiosity, do you have the parents to these birds? Would you ever condsider putting father to daughter, mother to son to jam up the genes some and see what happens??
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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knaylor
63 posts
Feb 16, 2006
8:04 PM
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Nick, are you talking about working hard ugly or off type ugly???? I would be hesitant to breed an off type bird unless it really balled up and was never a problem in the kit. Kevin
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Mount Airy Lofts
107 posts
Feb 16, 2006
8:24 PM
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I have a scrubbed out young bird in my kit box right now that is just a dandy if not the best Roller in the '05 crop. This bird is the only bird that has not moulted out completely. It is rolling 25 feet with super velocity and is stable as they come.
I have heard many guys cull such a bird because of poor feather quality. I know I have flown birds that just didn't moult out until they were over a year and a half. These Rollers had blazing velocity and style.
Now on the same note, I have two really clean and shiny birds in the young bird kit. Guess what, they can't do even a flip. I have watched these two birds for over a month and still just stiff tumbling - doing a tumble every 5 minutes or so. I am gonna fly them out until I need the perch space. So why cull two very clean, nicely feathered bird vs. a scrubbed out missing feathered one... simple, performance!!
Thor
Here is a photo of that young bird that is just blazing 25 footers. Ain't a looker but when it rips, boy is it pretty. 2005 MFRG 510 hatched in July 29th - 2005
Last Edited by Mount Airy Lofts on Feb 16, 2006 8:30 PM
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merced guy
47 posts
Feb 16, 2006
8:45 PM
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Nick,
got one, very ugly as heck, small scrawny, but beats everybird in the air that she's with. she's the deepest, fastest, got everything except look and handling. Im in the same delima. its even uglier than the one thor posted. I would say twice uglier. but it is the best bird that i have right now.
thong
Last Edited by merced guy on Feb 16, 2006 8:59 PM
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nicksiders
466 posts
Feb 16, 2006
10:18 PM
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It is physically ugly only. It works its butt off in the air and does 25 footers ball bearing small and loves to fly with the kit. Physically it is everything bad; in the air it is everything good.
I am thinking of mating it back to it's mother who is a fantastic roller speciman. Tony's suggestion kinda sparked that interest.
I have been flying it most of a year and it is all business in the air and causes no trouble in the kit box. It is a top row sitter in the box. I may wait until after the WC.
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J_Star
246 posts
Feb 17, 2006
5:18 AM
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I kind have different opinion about this topic and it only reflects what I would do. Breeding rollers are not just for performance only but other things to consider even color. But type, feather quality, fertility, egg hatchability, chick mortality and among other things are needed to be considered when breeding rollers.
Remember ‘like does tend to breed like.’ You might not inbred your birds for generations, but the one who had them before you did. So the bad genetic makeup also will come out with the good, but we need to avoid breeding those. There is an article about Avoiding the Ill’s of Inbreeding, read it and it would explain in details what I am trying to say. This is just my own thought.
Jay
Last Edited by Tony Chavarria on Feb 17, 2006 5:36 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
487 posts
Feb 17, 2006
5:58 AM
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Hey Jay, when we hear a phrase: "breed best to best" there is really more to it, just like you say in your post. I find that I regularly pair my Lavendars which can have softer secondaries with my Red Checks, Black Checks, Red Bars and Blue Bars.
I can't recall when I last paired Lavendars together in my loft as the Lavs tend to be the "hottest". Early on in developing my family of Ruby Rollers, I tried Lavs together and got many that would bounce as they were too hot. That's when I learned for myself that color balancing can have a positive impact on performance results.
I started "color balancing" within them and found I had a more stable roller this way. This is what I observed in my Ruby Roller family and others may have a different experience.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
488 posts
Feb 17, 2006
6:18 AM
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Hey Nick, happy to see you read my previous post! LOL Before you make the decision to actually pair son to mother, keep in mind you may end up getting more offspring that look like the ugly one and if they have the roll you are looking for, you could end up with a loft of ugly rollers! LOL
Unless this ugly bird is your "best" one, don't breed from it. If you want to experiment to see what happens (which is a fun idea) then go ahead. Realize you may end up culling them after the experiement.
I know some will say "breed for the roll (if its ideal) because you can't see its' ugliness from the ground", that's fine, however, for me, a good looking bird on the perch just adds to its value in my loft.
Careful selection and breeding toward the ideal may mean the best "rolling" bird is bypassed for a properly balanced one.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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J_Star
247 posts
Feb 17, 2006
7:08 AM
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Good posts Tony for both me and Nick. I know there are more to breeding Best to Best, but remember that even with best to best, if you mate both with the same faults you will get more of the same. Although, best to best is the easies and safest way to breed, but care in selection is very important. Color balancing, by experience, is essential to rollers stability and performance, no doubt.
With all due respect, if your best birds are that ugly, maybe it is time to think about upgrading your birds by aquiring some smokers from other lofts and incorporate them with yours to get all your birds to the next level up and with the good looks on the perch also. Smokers with good looks are everywhere and easy to aquire. Check with Tony or others if they have extra hen or two. As we all discussed in many posts that a fancier need to start and build a family of rollers that are good performers, excellent in health and type, good feathers and strong with (vigour). If any of these are lacking, it is best to start from an early steps to upgrade and enhance what you have and save yourself lots of problems down the road. That is just my opinion.
Jay
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motherlodelofts
598 posts
Feb 17, 2006
8:08 AM
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It is easy to get in your mind what you "think" what they should look like .
Many times breeding is a balancing act , for the new guys the best to do is breed best to best and over time they will learn as they gain experiance , and this doesnt happen in a just few years.
I think the biggest mistake that many make is thinking that over done birds are the good one's , thats like thinking LSD is good for one's mind.
Thats like thinking LSD is good for one's mind,thats like thinking LSD is good for one's mind,thats like thinking LSD is good for one's mind ,thats like uh what was I saying ?
I think that one huge mistake is many stock to early , if you are stocking birds that are 8 mo old you don't have a clue what you are stocking and will ruin a family in short order if that family was any good in the first place.
As for Nicks ugly bird , I got a feeling it is more feather than anything , if everything was off it wouldn't be what he says it is.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Feb 17, 2006 8:10 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
489 posts
Feb 17, 2006
9:19 AM
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Hey Scott, it was good talking to you the other day for the first time in what, a year and a half? LOL
I tend to think it could be the feathering of the bird as well as it is molting??
I have young bird Ruby Rollers that go into a molt during the fall and winter once I move them to the weaning loft (Paul, thats in the "North Wing" LOL) because the lighting conditions change from the breeding loft (which simulates a spring or summer day with light fixtures that are on for 14 hours a day) to the weaning compartment where they are now exposed to the naturally shorter days of the fall and winter season.
I have concluded that the "change" to the shorter daylight hours, causes them to go into a molt...My point? oh yeah, some can look pretty awful when I ship to my clients, but look great after they feather backup.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
Last Edited by Tony Chavarria on Feb 17, 2006 9:21 AM
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Mount Airy Lofts
108 posts
Feb 17, 2006
11:51 AM
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I have to disagree with culling non feathering birds unless they had a performance fault. All most all the fastest Roller I have ever flown were of a shaggied up appearance. I believe these birds were like that because they were constantly blowing out their feathers. They are usually the last to moult.
A buddy of mine stocked a hen from my team last year. This hen did not moult at all and was missing so many feathers, you would of figured it wasn't able to fly. She could fly and boy could she roll. She was a bird that Blurred out coming into the roll. Just a FUZZ. It was a one time performance. Altho, I think she would of repeated this performance if my buddy didn't come and stocked her. Even tho she never did another BLURR, she was a blazing, straight as a line, 30 footer.
I flown her for 1 year and a half before she was stocked by my buddy. Until she was stocked, she was as ugly as they came in feather cover. 3 times as worst as my above T-Check. After 4 months of being stocked, she bloomed into a full feathered bird. Here is a current photo of her: 2003 ML 119
It is right, every one has their own ideal as to the traits they want to pass on. Altho, if it was the best bird you bred, it is hard to pass it up.
Thor
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viper
15 posts
Feb 17, 2006
3:56 PM
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I was told once by a old flyer when talking about the same thing and his reply was I don't bred from good looking birds that don't roll or ugly birds that do roll they stay in the kit for all there days.But that comes along with just ugly ugly or torn up rolling ugly.Blake
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Mongrel Lofts
131 posts
Feb 17, 2006
6:25 PM
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The solution is easy.. Just breed these good spinning ugly birds on a pretty Milky, toy stencil, opal, crested muff!! I always liked the looks of those Arch Angel's,, maybe put those ugly spinners on one of them? Just think how pretty the young will be sitting on the perch..
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.. Its really hard for me to see a hard deep fast spinner as ugly.. If I was you, I would just close my eyes till the kit was up! LOL Mongrel Lofts
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nicksiders
470 posts
Feb 17, 2006
9:23 PM
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I got one of those pouter/homer crosses with toy stencil that I am thinking about putting with that ugly bird because if it rolls it is.....a performing roller. What do ya think?
KGB, you bring that stuff out in me.
That was a joke fellas............
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Mongrel Lofts
133 posts
Feb 18, 2006
11:56 AM
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Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.. Its really hard for me to see a hard deep fast spinner as ugly.. If I was you, I would just close my eyes till the kit was up! LOL Mongrel Lofts
Nick,
I think your right and you should follow your own advice.. I'm sure your competition will thank you for concentrating on pretty.. Mongrel Lofts
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Missouri-Flyer
725 posts
Jul 10, 2007
10:53 AM
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---This is an OLD post:---
Nick, just wondering the outcome from this thread.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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nicksiders
1865 posts
Jul 10, 2007
12:07 PM
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Jerry,
I am still flying her and she ain't got any better looking either. As time wore on I decided she just didn't have those other values that would have moved her to the breeding loft. I will continue to fly her until she can't do that well anymore and then decide what I am going to do with he. Remove her from the Varsity and have her coach the freshmen or something; maybe even breed her a couple of rounds and see what they do. In the WC she was just one of four birds I had left from an overfly and she did well enough to be singled out by the judge without any mention from me. So, I am proud of her and probably always will be.....
Nick
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Snicker Rollers
Last Edited by on Jul 10, 2007 12:08 PM
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Missouri-Flyer
726 posts
Jul 10, 2007
12:30 PM
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that must be the blue check hen they told me about?
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
71 posts
Jul 10, 2007
3:36 PM
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Hey Nick post a picture of your supposedly ugly bird ???
we will Rate it ok........................lol
RUDY
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Missouri-Flyer
728 posts
Jul 10, 2007
3:38 PM
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yea Nick, post a pic of her.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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RUDY..ZUPPPPP
73 posts
Jul 10, 2007
3:49 PM
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This is going to be called..
Rate my roller.com...lol
Rudy
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Missouri-Flyer
729 posts
Jul 10, 2007
4:20 PM
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I think for the most part, that people rate others pics as it is. They just dont say much.
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Jerry
Home of "Whispering Wings Loft"
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nicksiders
1895 posts
Jul 19, 2007
1:00 PM
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This is one of the two ugly birds I have talked about. I forgot to take a picture of that blue bar that the judge liked.
Not a real good shot, but the bird now 4 years old performs well. She just don't have those other things that would put her in the stock loft. Note the flat head; long beak; long legs; big feet with feathers; long keel; everything just not right except the roll which is not the best I have, but I do have many(most) who are worse.
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Nick
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Shaun
516 posts
Jul 19, 2007
1:57 PM
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Hey, Nick. My Moseley birds kick out that particular body colour/pattern and I find it difficult to describe. Forget the white bits - what do you call the body colouring? Anyone else?
Shaun
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lil_jess
46 posts
Jul 19, 2007
2:40 PM
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ugly ugly but the roll is a swan, your birds are good inside...
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nicksiders
1898 posts
Jul 19, 2007
7:05 PM
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Shaun,
I would call it a red grizzle.....when I don't know what to call anything I use the word "grizzle"(LOL)....and it works everytime(LOL).
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Nick
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