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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
In, Line Vs. Outcrossing...What to make of it?
In, Line Vs. Outcrossing...What to make of it?
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J_Star
266 posts
Feb 24, 2006
11:54 AM
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Scott replied to Cliff in the ‘Hey! Wake up!’ post and said: “Breeding quality birds that can hold up through the years and not through one season is the key to a quality family, and no I don't think anyone is doing it in large numbers.”
That is a very strong statement and very important. But on the other hand, Cliff wrote: “For the record, Jay Yandle inbreeds and keeps his family very tight, unlike Joe bob, Clay and Danny who outcross at will, onto a base family of inbred birds.” And he goes on and also said “The jury is still out, by a long shot. Men have been line breeding select families for years, yet they fare no better in consistency or in competitions than others who use the extreme opposite breeding philosophy, which they also happen to believe is also supported by Pensom, ‘best to best regardless of relationship.’ Guys like Danny Courtney, Clay Hoyle and Joe Bob Stuka have adopted the latter philosophy with tremendous success and consistency; much more so than they were able to produce the goods with line-breeding in one family. Many believe that Pensom did the same. He was known for pinching birds, anywhere he could get them if he liked their performance and type, regardless of strain or family.”
Here is my question, which was asked long ago on this form:
If inbreeding and line breeding is such a good method of producing top quality spinners and livestock (Longhorn, Black Angus) why is it not done with race horses? They race for millions of dollars such as Kentucky Derby, Breeders Cup, etc. I am sure the Breeders in Kentucky would have tried every possible method to create fast race horses thoroughbreds.
Breeders are always producing Champions like Smarty Jones by crossing different families of Thoroughbreds. If you visit the successful breeding farms in Kentucky you would see that they breed from a variety of good race horses and not a certain STRAIN. If it was as simple as breeding father to daughter son to mother cousin to cousin to produce Champions I am sure they would have practiced this method of producing GREAT STOCK race horses!!!!
If I am correct, didn’t Pensom himself once say "BEST TO BEST REGARDLESS"!!!!
I am just trying to get input from people who support or negate either method logically and employing good common sense to further the knowledge. Thanks.
Jay
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dave
69 posts
Feb 24, 2006
12:28 PM
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I'm just a rookie but here is my input. I think it has to do with numbers. How many babies do they have in a year? The more offsprings you have the more traits you get to choose from. It takes time and that is what race horse breeders don't have as time= big money for them. Also, the more complex an organism is the more genes you have to sort through and the different effects they have. If breeding race horses was also that easy then we would see at least a super one every year. The pair that raised that great colt this year should be able to do it again next year.
Last Edited by dave on Feb 24, 2006 12:34 PM
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
404 posts
Feb 24, 2006
12:28 PM
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Jay, my opinion is that there are several, many, ways to breed a successful kit of rollers. It all depends on the personality and goals of the owner. We each have different beliefs while many are exactly the same. In the end, I like to look at the names at the top of the MF list and those who reoccur in the top ten of the big flys each year. Those are the guys who are doing things right in my opinion. And I think you will find that many of them have drastically different breeding methods.
I believe a lot of it has to do with family characteristics. Some people know their birds and understand what type of matings will bring forth the improvements they seek. Others will recognize that crossing outside or within a family will produce the goods.
Personally I do both. I have one family that is all about four birds and that is it. Another family I have is a larger gene pool and the matings are based solely on performance and character and absolutely not about relationship. Then my third is a culmenation of selected birds that all have a similar background, yet really are all crossings by the way they are mated. And in the end, all three families produce well for me, year after year.
Some things work, some things don't, you just have to try it and see for yourself. Experience is a great teacher.
Brian.
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Shaun
288 posts
Feb 24, 2006
1:03 PM
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It does seem that many seek black and white answers with rollers, whereas there are many shades of grey inbetween. I gave up trying to pin things down when I first read "Winners with Spinners" and saw the forceful opinions of guys who'd been around rollers for decades, living within striking distance of each other, getting together at club meetings, etc, yet still having such diverse opinions on the ways to do the same roller things. It was almost as if they were determined to prove that it could be done differently to what the other guys had said.
Nowadays, such dogmatic opinions on how to breed and fly, are unlikely to have the impact in the way they used to, as it's much easier for all of us to research the various methods from guys all over the world, and ultimately make up our own minds.
Indeed, here we have the likes of Brian, stretching the breeding envelope somewhat, demonstrating that none of us have to conform to any one particular method.
As my mother-in-law would say, with her many and varied mixed metaphors: "There's more than one way to swing a cat".
Shaun
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J_Star
267 posts
Feb 24, 2006
1:29 PM
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That is all fine and dandy you guys, but I am just trying to get input to support or negate either method logically and employing good common sense to further the knowledge. Please explaine how, why and what you did or possible your own analysis for your choise one way or another. It will help all understand the differences. Thanks.
Jay
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Mongrel Lofts
140 posts
Feb 25, 2006
11:06 PM
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Jay,
Race horses can almost all be traced back to three horses and a huge percentage of the winners to one horse,, Man O War.. I think if you study breeding you will find line breeding and then out crossing for hybrid vigor big, even in the Big money breeds.. Problem is time and limited numbers it takes to breed a horse.. Just check it out,, you will find the race horses that win, in a huge percentage have the lineage of the same blood line.. Mongrel Lofts
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