Double D
158 posts
Mar 10, 2006
1:29 PM
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If you have a family of birds that you are working with, and the family has been kept tight for many years, and your birds are all inter-related, from a genetic standpoint, does this cause them to be more prone to genetic issues like webbed feet, extra toe nails, health issues, etc. than if they were from a family that wasn't so tight?
The reason for my question is based on the other posts you've seen me post in the last week. In my very first round, 13 babies total, two didn't hatch, one has died, the nestmate to the one that died isn't growing very fast but seems to be healthy, I have one that has webbed toes on both feet, and two that have toenail-type barbs growing out of their middle toes, (one of them is the poor bird with webbed feet). This just seems like alot of odd stuff in my very first round of babies.
I know birds are not like humans but we all know the problems that would come from you "mating" with your sister and I guess I'm wondering if the same thing wouldn't happen, over quite an extended period of time of course, with birds from a family that is possibly "too" tight. Am I making sense?
I'm wondering if from a genetic standpoint, because my family is very tight, if that isn't causing some of these things that I'm seeing. The percentage of occurence of this odd-ball stuff is too high in my opinion for something not to be going on.
So, genetics experts, please chime in. Thanks!
Darin
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
425 posts
Mar 10, 2006
2:45 PM
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Darin, it is generally a matter of recessives. You can breed a family super tight and not have many or any termed "negative" recessives pop up. The discussion in regards to extensive, up close inbreeding generally falls in line with looking to "purge" a gene pool of negative recessive genes. As they pop up, they are discarded. Some call it a cleansing. I believe in most life forms there are always recessives somewhere in a gene pool. Many of them fall under the category of Mutant genes.
Webbed feet is just one recessive that can be found in some pigeon gene pools. I don't know about that toe nail issue you are seeing. I still suspect it is a feather quill.
Brian
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fhtfire
357 posts
Mar 10, 2006
5:44 PM
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Double D!!
You are right about when you inbreed. Brian is right about the recessive genes coming out in some families. I raised livestock for years. I had inbred one time...but it was not a father daughter type mating. It was a grandfather to grand daughter mating. It was just to try and fix a minor fault. The animal that was born from the mating was an "it"..meaning...it was a female...but thought that it was a male...and was not fertile...was it because of the inbreeding...I do not know...but I never did it again. I would never have dreamed of doing a very close mating. I still to this day do not feel comfortable about it. Just from my experience with livestock and the experience of other breeders that I knew..who had issues after in breeding. I am talking retarded livestock..mutant features. If you have seen the movie "wrong turn" LOL...you will see why you do not inbreed humans..LOL!! It is just a fact that the more you inbreed the more of a chance you will magnify the good...but you will also breed the bad traits too!. The webbed foot thing is obviously a mutation..most likely from inbreeding..unless someone through a duck into the mix. I would fly the bird..and if it is a good bird...keep it in the team...a good solid kit bird is just as hard to find too....but if it were mine..It would not see my breeder loft. That is the very reason you have to throw an outcross in every now and then...to add a little "Zest" to the gene pool. I am not a big fan of real close inbreeding..but that is just "me". I will without hesitation throw a grandfather on a grand daughter or uncle to niece or what have you. I am still hesitant to this day about father daughter etc...just from past experiences in livestock and retards being thrown from inbreeding. This is just my opinion and I know that a lot of pigeon breeders have inbred with no problems...If you have birds and inbreeding works...fine...if you don't then you can throw in an outcross. Brian..you are more of an expert then me on this subject...if I am out of line...smack me one! LOL!
D..one more thing..some of your losses could be just from haveing young parents...the first season...you will suffer more then average losses from lack of parenting skills.
rock and ROLL
paul
Last Edited by fhtfire on Mar 10, 2006 5:53 PM
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upcd
185 posts
Mar 10, 2006
8:17 PM
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Boo boos I have seen because birds are bred to close to long. Hawk becks, one egg hen, small runtly young, lack of disease resistants, bumpers. poor feathering. What have you seen?
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motherlodelofts
631 posts
Mar 10, 2006
10:59 PM
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Darin, keep in mind the first round can be real hit and miss , if it doesn't straighten out you need to clean them up as you probably have a bout of paratyphoid, put them on sulmit if its not to bad and it will clean them up and stop the black unhatched eggs for the most part.
As for the web toes, like Brian said its recesive, do not breed these or it will take over the loft and next is welded toes.
Breed away from the web toes and the producers of it, I doubt what you are seeing is due to being to tight , but more a combination of things, the family here is very tight and no one eyed cyclopses or birds that look like other breeds because some clown crossbred them.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Mar 10, 2006 11:02 PM
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J_Star
291 posts
Mar 13, 2006
5:07 AM
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DD,
For those webbed feet squeakers, when they are about a few days old, you can use a razor blade and cut through the webbing to separate the toes. Then use alcohol or rub their feet with coffee grounds to stop the bleeding.
Jay
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donb
9 posts
Mar 13, 2006
8:22 PM
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Double D. On the webbed toes- you are just dealing with a recessive gene. Not necessarily because of inbreeding but because both parents have it. They ( recessive genes ) can float around for years and not show up 'til you get the right 2 together. They could be completely unrelated and still show up. However, close breeding ( inbreeding or linebreeding) tends to concentrate both good and bad genes. It all depends on what is in there to start with . If the bad ones are bad enough then we cull the the producers therof, If their good qualities out weigh the bad ones then we tend to live with them. You can split the pairs but each of them have a 50-50 chance of passing it on in each egg and sooner or later it will probably crop up again. As to the other things you mentioned It may just be a little health problem but some of it could be inherited traits.
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jerryf
17 posts
Mar 14, 2006
2:08 AM
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What is the dosage of Sulmet in the drinking water?
Jerry
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661roller
8 posts
Mar 14, 2006
11:53 AM
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Jerry,
Mine says 1 tablespoon per gallon for 3-5 days.
Jim (not the censorious one LOL)
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