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The Original All Roller Talk Discussion Board Archive >
Pensom...just a name?
Pensom...just a name?
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fhtfire
388 posts
Mar 30, 2006
8:58 AM
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Hey all!
I wanted to get some input on this matter that has been bugging me. I have recently talked to a guy and he said that he raises Pure Pensoms. I said....you have birds that go back to Pensom. No my are Pensoms. I then said...well they are your birds with Pensom blood. Pensom has been dead for quite awhile and I do not think that he is still breeding. Well...this person got mad at me...I told him that I was not being smart...that he needs to claim ownership of the birds...he has made the decisions on breeding pairs...not pensom. So you can't call them Pensoms. You can say that they go back to Pensom...but they are your line now. To be honest...he was trying to sell some birds to a guy and did not like what I was saying. I was just being honest.
I know that we had the conversation of ...."When are they considered your birds" and it seemed that after at least two generations you can say they are your birds. For Example...I will take my Mort Emami Birds...after 2 or three generations of my decisions on breeding..my birds will be my line of birds that originated from Mort Emami...who has a Jaconette strain. Or my Ruby Rollers.....after a couple generations or more...they will be my "line" of Ruby roller strain originating from Chavarria. They are really really my line if I cross two strains...that is for sure yours...then they will be Emami/Ruby Roller Crosses...but my line.
So the question is this....How do you feel about people saying they have Pure Pensom birds when Pensom has not been breeding for 40years...to me a "Pure Pensom" is one that he hands me right from his loft...that he bred....I have pure Ruby Rollers....I got them right from Tony! It kind of annoyed me..becasue I got the feeling this guy was using Pensom to sell some birds
rock and ROLL
Paul
Last Edited by on Jun 02, 2007 6:38 PM
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Shaun
323 posts
Mar 30, 2006
9:50 AM
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Yeah, I know what you mean, Paul. Already as I'm breeding from the Masons I obtained directly from the man himself, I'm aware that with each successive generation, I'll be taking myself further away from the source. It does, therefore, beg the question how anything can remain pure, once the original breeder is no longer involved - especially, as in Pensom's case, he's no longer with us, so can't advise!
The question which does spring to mind, though, is whether certain traits belonging to a well-established strain/family - be it Pensom or anyone else - could continue uninterrupted, generation after generation, regardless of what someone else did with them. So, for example, if someone never crossed any other rollers with those originating from Pensom's stock, and kept them going for decades, would they still bear a resemblance to the originals, despite the masses of breeding/flying/maintenance decisions made thereafter?
I'm thinking bird colouration and markings, body type, performance style, high flying/low flying tendencies, stamina, preference for certain foods, susceptibility or resitance to disease, recessive traits, etc.
Shaun
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C.J.
66 posts
Mar 30, 2006
11:19 AM
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I have to tell you have have dealt with many different guys out there and they handle it in different ways. Some of them say their birds from the Pensom line others will try to convince you they are Pensom's birds and the good breeders just put them in the air. I agree 100% that they are no longer his after so many years but I also think you need to be careful how quickly you cut the original breeder out of the loop. To me there are no true Pensom Rollers left out there after forty years there is no way the exact pairings and breeding patterns Pensom himself would still would be 100% true. In my view only Pensom could breed Pensoms. After all his time why does anyone need use his name to sell their bird just put them in the air if you have done your work they will speak for themselves. Personally I wouldn't use his name at all. I just let them out of the loft and their skill in the air shows all of your hard work. Anyone out there no matter how fancy the name shouldn't buy them solely based on a breeders name. Only in the air can all become clear. If they are crap youc an't hide it in the air. I am always suspicious of guys who try to use a name to sell things. I would also be careful how quickly you are to cut a breeder out of the loop. I personally would not after only two years claim the birds were my family. I would say my birds come from such and suchs line. As long as there are birds in you loft from the original breeders loft the credit isn't 100% yours. You can say I am working with such and suches family or families of birds but that is as far as I would go personally. Shaun as for the question of what if the birds from Pensom weren't crossed out? Then I pose this question does the credit for those birds belong to Pensom or the guys he got them from? Or the Guys before them and so on. You have to know where to draw the line. I have said it once and I will say it again if you know what you are looking foe who cares who's loft they come from. In the air they should talk for themselves. If you go to a guys loft and all he can spout is Pensom or another name he thinks will impress you or not put them in the air then get back in your car and drive away fast. I don't care if their crap smells like roses if they can't perform in the air I am not interested.
C.J.
Last Edited by C.J. on Mar 30, 2006 11:23 AM
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Mount Airy Lofts
169 posts
Mar 30, 2006
1:44 PM
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Paul,
If you are talking about some one hyping their birds for the sellers market then all bets are off.
I have probably met the same guy on line. (grin) I recall not too long ago some one emailing me about my website. He stated he had pure Pensom's and emailed me acouple of photos of his birds. The guy had acouple of Yellow's and Almonds in those photo. I thought to myself, color breeder. (grin) I emailed him back and asked him why he thought he had pure pensom and he stated his birds were obtainned straight from Pensom by his Grand Father who has kept them pure. I told this gentleman (or was it a kid as I didn't not ask for his age) that I didn't know Pensom had Yellows in his family nor did he have Almonds. The fellow replied with quite a protective message back that stated his birds were Pure Pensom and knows that for a fact. He also stated his birds were top performing birds and that they were too good to be flown in the competitions. Some times, the truth hurts. It's better to stay in your own world then leave your back yard. Then, you won't have anything else to compare them to and say anything to hype your birds up. I had never met any one on line that was that protective of his birds being Pure Pensom. I was just asking him why he thought his birds were Pure Pensom as I noticed he had some RARE colored birds. I may note that he stated he sells alot of birds.
Here's my take on the subject. Take for example my birds, if I was to meet you and said my birds were Brueggemeier or Nauer or Whites or Peterson or Kowalski or etc. You probably wouldn't have a clue what family my birds were. Yet, if I was to say, my birds are Plona based. You would know right off the bat what they were. I don't like to use the phase Pure Plona's as there are non left. I do like using the phase Plona base as it seems to sum up what I have. Unless you live in my state or the neighboring state, you probably wouldn't know who Mr. Bruggemeier was (he placed 7th in the 94 world cup fly) and also qualified many times for the finals. Or Mr. Fisher who flew some of the best kits in Iowa and won his share of Big Flys. Or Mr. Peterson who was the man to beat in all local club flys. Or Mr. Kowalski who was famous for bring the Plona birds to the area. etc. All these guys shared birds and have never crossed in anything else but birds originating from Plona breds.
If a local asked me which family I had, I would just use the name of the original breeder. Altho if a out of state Judge or Visitor had asked me, I would say Plona based to simplify things.
The question now lies, what do you call a bird with half and half but originated from the same breeder. For example, I have this '91 NBRC 186 Black Grizzle Cock on hand. The father was a John White bred off a Stan Plona bred making it a F1. The mother was off two F1 J. Leroy Smiths. All four parents were J. Leroy Smith breds. Now, the question - what would I call this line - Plona based or Smith based?
Thor
P.S. Here is the '91 NBRC 186 Cock. I plan on putting him with a '04 bred Red Check Badge hen from my Lavender line which is heavy J. Leroy Smith blood. Pairing old with young is my theroy. They also match each other well on the ground.
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
715 posts
Mar 30, 2006
3:06 PM
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Thor.You may have judged that fellow wrong.Pensom had yellows and I have a letter from 1962 where he offered me a pair but they was 5.00 more than the Blue Check pair that I bought from him.As for Almonds I don,t know.David
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motherlodelofts
704 posts
Mar 30, 2006
4:43 PM
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Thor Dave is right , Pensom did sell yellows.
According to old Joe Borges Pensom kept some because they sold well but said that he wouldn't breed them into his family , Joe also said that Pensom had him cull a box of them for him.
Useing names gets funny and many times it is for nothing but reconition or for sales.
Pensom is a good example along with many others, as for my birds , well they are mine and I've worked hard on them as did those prior with this family.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Mar 30, 2006 4:44 PM
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Mount Airy Lofts
171 posts
Mar 31, 2006
6:49 AM
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David,
Maybe you know some thing I don't know. As I heard it thru the great vine that W. H. P. culled all the Yellows he was working with because they couldn't improve his family. Did he sell birds/yellows... yes? What became of his yellow project is to the best of my knowledge was culled.
Yes, I know he had some yellows as it is clear in the photos. Take for example the Book put out by Bob Evans (I think) The Birmingham Roller by W.H.P and Others. Inside cover is a Cream Bar - Yellow Bar Show Champ, also known to be a great bird in the air. I don't know if this bird was culled with the lot or not but just goes to show you he did have Yellows at one time. Maybe he just had it as an outside project as still do with other families. Many times, these projects don't work out and the lot is culled. It is healthy to play around with different families as it may teach you a thing or two.
As I said, I didn't judge the fellow. I just asked how he figured his birds were Pure Pensom. I stated to him what I have heard, that Pensom had culled his Yellows and never had Almonds. Any time some one uses the phase PURE, it is suspicious as to their intent. Pure to me would be Pensom bred. The Pensom Strain would be a more pausable phase.
You be the judge as I am not a expect on Pensom birds. I figured I go thru my emails and look for the photos of these PURE Pensoms again. There were many birds in the lot that I would question as being from the Pensom strain or Pensom based but these were the most suspicious:
A note, the guy did have two very good looking bird in the lot - A black self hen and a Rec. Red Cock. I told him I enjoyed the photos but was more interested in knowing the history of his birds. Like what they did in the air, how did they in the breeding pen if bred from, how he acquired his birds, etc. That was when the gentleman told me that his birds were to good for any competition fly and that they were straight from Pensom, etc. Enjoyed the photos tho. Interesting story, just one I wouldn't hold...
I thought I have some resources to old birds, but all the way back to Pensom breds... na, I don't think so. The oldest I can get my hands on is a late '85 bred that is still filling eggs this year.
Thor
P.S. If the fellow thought that I was knocking his birds, than I apologized. I just wanted to know the history behind the photo.
Last Edited by Mount Airy Lofts on Mar 31, 2006 6:56 AM
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Mount Airy Lofts
172 posts
Mar 31, 2006
7:06 AM
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Scott,
You are right about taking pride in the birds.
I would get a blank expression when I say my birds are mostly Nauers. Most people heard of John White but Nauer, who the heck is that. Kind of brings it home to say they are (a well known breeder).
That Black Grizzle I posted is a Nauer bred. Dick bred it off a John White bred (off a Stan Plona bred cock) and a Gail B. Peterson bred (former NBRC President). The Black Grizzle was an out standing bird in the air and produces the goods in the breeding pen. He's not that shape looking but can breed sharp spinning birds. Dick Nauer always flew in the World Cups back when he still had the birds but never seem to have it down right on fly day for some reason.
Thor
Last Edited by Mount Airy Lofts on Mar 31, 2006 7:11 AM
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Planet_Rock_Lofts
13 posts
Apr 02, 2006
3:06 PM
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Wow!
You guys are deep, deep, deep into the bloodlines and who had whatcolors and everything. This must be you guys second job. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with that it shows that you are really into your birds. I just got back into birds in May 2005 and I am slowly progressing just trying to get better by knowing the one family i have and building from that bloodline. I think I will get a pair of ruby rollers and work with that one family and the current one I have.
Once again this is not a jab at anyone because I appreciate the education. Lot of stuff i did not and still don't know thank you sensai.
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nicksiders
501 posts
Apr 02, 2006
9:59 PM
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I am going to say something that will probably hurt some feelings...........but, here goes: How good is Pensom when comparing him to today's best breeders?
I honestly feel that today's average breeder would be a shining star 30 or 40 years ago. We have more knowledge at our fingure tips now than ever before and our breeding; training; and care of the birds far surpasses what was going on back then. Have we gone past Mr. Pensom?
I am not taking anything away from him as a "pioneer" in this hobby in the U.S. and he should always have the reverence that he rightfully deserves. I am just finding it more important to what I am doing in my lofts to use someone elses experience and advise to advance in managing my lofts.
Have at me...........
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
724 posts
Apr 03, 2006
3:00 AM
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Nick.I agree with you.The roller hobby has come a long way since the passing of Pensom.I can guarantee if Pensom were alive today folks would be shocked at what he would be saying now compared to 40 years ago.Look at how many times he changed his mind about things when he was with us.He was always progressing forward and when new things were learned he moved with them.
I have always wondered why he never would get into the Competitions though.
In my opinion we have many roller breeders today that surpass Pensom as a Breeder and have taken the roller to a new level(as it should be)and are making History as we speak.David
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C.J.
71 posts
Apr 03, 2006
4:12 AM
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All of you who question the greatness of Pensom are going to hell. LOL Some of the old roller guys out there will hire a hit man and have you assassinated. LOL
I do agree that roller breeding as been taken to the next level or two. I also believe that if Pensom was alive he woulld also have gone to the next level. I am just astounded at how many people hang on to his name for commercial benefit. I wonder how happy he would be if he knew how his name is so readily exploited to make a buck.
I think a lot of guys out there today are selling themselves short by not thinking they are as good as pensom.
C.J.
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Mount Airy Lofts
181 posts
Apr 03, 2006
9:52 AM
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I'm not gonna guess how good the birds back then were compared to today's birds.
What I do know is that today's fanciers are more open with sharing birds then yester years. We have to thank the hard core fliers for shelling out only the best birds to people. With out these hard core fliers, we wouldn't have the quality of birds we have today.
Just look at the sellers in the hobby. People who breed soley to sell. Most will sell junks off as decent to good birds. While these same birds would never leave a Hard Core flier's property with its head still screwed on.
I think Pensom started the sharing of birds. Selling, giving, loaning, all of which were of the best stock or off of such.
People are so quick to forget how hard head those old fanciers were to letting any one step on their property, yet alone score a bird without having to steal it out of the air.
People may not like the hard core fliers but these guys are the foundation of this breed.
Sharing of birds, info, etc. flow so fast and so freely in today's time that it is a shame if our birds aren't better then yester years.
Thor
Last Edited by Mount Airy Lofts on Apr 03, 2006 9:53 AM
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