STARFIRE
18 posts
Apr 02, 2006
12:19 PM
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Hi guys:
I would like someone to enlighten me as to why you think the kind or amount of feed you use causes them to roll down.I only feed wheat in the summer and corn in the winter
so I dont have a clue as to why they would rolldown on any feed.I have deep birds and the only time mine will hit is if I keep them in past a couple of days.I starve mine down to get them lower and they don`t roll down because of that
Guys write that I fed them so and so and it rolled them down.I`ve had birds for 55 years and I have never associated feed with rolling them down.When do they go down?When you let them out? when they have been flying for
10 minutes? or when they are coming down==Lets hear some feedback.
Stan Arnold
STARFIRE
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Mount Airy Lofts
179 posts
Apr 02, 2006
12:52 PM
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Stan,
Here is a qoute I would like to pass along:
"“By not messing with different grains, you’ll never get the most out of your birds. Milo, millet, peas, etc,,,,. all have tremendous influence on the behavior of your rollers. Don’t be afraid to play around with it. You’ll be surprised!”
Rick Schoening"
I found corn to cause bumping in my birds. This grain may just be putting too much fat on the birds and causes them to not pull out in time - unbalancing the bird.
Millet cause my birds to sky out - they respond quite well the first time it is given but as they get use to the grain, it causes them to be strong high fliers.
Wheat seems to be a good over all grain. Easy grain to control the birds.
Like the qoute above states, don't be scare to experiment!
Thor
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
722 posts
Apr 02, 2006
2:50 PM
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Most of my birds that rolldown comes from to much stress and not enough feed.David
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C.J.
70 posts
Apr 02, 2006
6:27 PM
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I have to agree with Stan on this one. Up here in Canada we have excellent corn and wheat. I have tried different types of feed but nothing changed their rolling. I find that careful selective breeding plays a bigger role in their ability than what I am feeding them.
C.J.
Last Edited by C.J. on Apr 02, 2006 6:28 PM
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J_Star
352 posts
Apr 02, 2006
7:09 PM
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I found excitement of the release after the birds were locked up for a few days will cause some hot hens to spin upon release and hit. But the cocks don't. I have never had a cock that rolled down, only hens. The cocks are the ones who mostly have the best control. My experiences with chronic roll downs were also hens. One of them rolled down about 300' feet twice and lived to talk about it until I culled it.
I found canary seeds mixed with Wheat/Milo, if given to my birds for a few days in a row will cause the bombing upon release for the hot hens but will make the birds perform like yoyo.
Jay
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kcfirl
9 posts
Apr 02, 2006
10:00 PM
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Stan,
it's been my experience that putting young birds =, say 4-6 months on straight wheat in an attempt to bring on the roll can cause valuable birs to roll down that otherwise would not.
Ken Firl
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Opinionated Blowhard
29 posts
Apr 02, 2006
11:31 PM
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Why do so many fanciers believe that what works for one family of rollers must work the same for all? Kevin
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nicksiders
502 posts
Apr 03, 2006
2:33 AM
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This time your opinion is right on.....each family is different, ain't it
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
725 posts
Apr 03, 2006
4:13 AM
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Jay.You said:I have never had a cock that rolled down, only hens.
I have found the same to be true with my family.I have been waiting over a year to get a rolldown cock so I could breed 2 rolldowns together.The only cock I have had to rolldown killed itself on contact.Of all the trees around here it had to miss them.LOL.
I did have a cock that hit when landing and would rolldown upon release after that but died before I ever got any young from it.I don't think it ever fully recovered from the hit.
Which brings me to wonder why a Cock would have more control over the roll impulse than hens.Anyone have any theory as to why?
We probably have discussed this before but I seldom go back and hunt for something.LOL. David
Last Edited by Bluesman on Apr 03, 2006 4:27 AM
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spinnerdom
139 posts
Apr 03, 2006
8:27 AM
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most cocks are bigger,more control ..hens are smaller less control.in some familys ,not in others.didnt say anything did i,
feed wheat to young and flying birds ,never did anything else,just up and down the can.
rolldown to rolldown been there done that,you can get the odd bird,but most will roll down,but as a young bird kit very hard to beat,if you dont produce some rolldowns, you are breeding a way from roll.i breed short to long,rolldown or not, just keep the best the hell with the rest.
jst me tke jim
Last Edited by spinnerdom on Apr 03, 2006 8:40 AM
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J_Star
359 posts
Apr 03, 2006
10:10 AM
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Jim, but my cocks and hens are about the same size. You would not know which is which until the cock start cooing and have a little bigger head than the hens.
So, I don't think size and control has to do anything with it at least in my family of birds.
Although, I heared so many times that hens are much better performers than cock and it is very diffecult to find a solid cock bird who causes no trouble.
Jay
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STARFIRE
20 posts
Apr 03, 2006
11:04 AM
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Hi kcfrl:
You say that putting the young birds on staight wheat when they are 4-6 months old to get them into the roll,causes them to rolldown.My birds are mostly all spinning 30-40 ft by this age.My young ones only get wheat as soon as they are able to eat.A rolldown is a rolldown is a rolldown.
I don`t think feed has anything to do with it.
STARFIRE
Stan Arnold
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kcfirl
10 posts
Apr 03, 2006
12:48 PM
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Stan,
well then we all ought to go get our birds from you. I have no knowledge of any family of birds that the majority of them starts spinning 3-40 ft at 4-6 mos. and that most don't end up roll downs or worse.
If you will sell me a pair of birds guaranteed to produce >50% birds spinning 30-40 ft. at 4-6 months of age - I would like to buy them.
Regards,
Ken Firl
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knaylor
151 posts
Apr 03, 2006
2:43 PM
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Ken, Mike Wolden has the same problem with his. If he messes with the feed too much they all start bouncing all over. So I guess he must have all rolldowns..LOL
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Mount Airy Lofts
182 posts
Apr 03, 2006
4:04 PM
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Ken F.,
Every body know's you got some darn good birds all ready. Are you telling me that in your travels as the L.A.D. for the World Cup Fly, you have not met guys flying that kind of a stock. (grin) Are you also telling us you would take on a better family - as Stan has claim he has.
Just pulling your leg. Every one knows or have heard of the quality of birds you have. I have also heard of you being a fair competition judge. Sounds like most people on this list have not heard of you.
I think depth is in the eye of the beholder. I don't doubt Stan's claim but I find it hard to believe that he can breed that high of percentage of birds rolling that deep at that age. 30-40 feet is a deep spin in my books. Stan must have some super strong charactered birds - even stronger than Jay Starley family. Most of my birds don't grain this depth (30 plus feet) until their second moult, some times even their third moult. They would come in about 25 feet and shorten back up to 10 to 15 feet within the week - for the first part of the year.
I would like to have all my birds or a high percentage of my birds rolling in the 30 plus feet with great velocity and style by 6 months... wouldn't we all. My deep birds don't live long if they are that young and rolling that deep. They either will roll down or have a accident. It seems that their body and mind are not able to handle the deep roll that early in developement. Maybe it is just my family.
It seems by the description that Stan has found the secret to breeding quality deep rollers. I am with you, I would like to grab a pair if this is true.
Thor
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STARFIRE
23 posts
Apr 04, 2006
4:30 PM
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Ken-Thor;
I`ve heard the same thing all my life too.If a bird rolls too early they will rolldown.I think that pigeons have to have the mental capacity to handle the roll at any age.I never listen to guys that advocate body structure,size,
feather,and character.My birds are picked and bred from the air and I dont care about anything else.I think you guys are analyzing yourselves to death.I read that this guy wont breed from a large bird.Other guys think it`s a sin to linebreed=inbreed.Others think that only the hard colored birds give the best spin and control.The only solid proof you have of anything,is what you see with your own eyes.All the Rhetoric makes for good reading,but will it make good birds?I believe that if you don`t have top notch birds you will never breed anything topnotch from inferior stock.The birds are the genetics of their ancestors,and you know the apple don`t fall far from the tree.If they were not very good why would you expect to breed better birds from them?
I know guys that waste 5-10 years of their life trying to breed better birds.They never get any better.How Can They?
The genetics of their stock won`t let them.You have to remember that I have had my family for 38 years.You won`t believe this ,but I`ll tell you any way.I bred a solid lavender,it must be 25 years ago.It was spinning 30 ft like an old bird and it was still squeeking.I flew it for a year,and stocked it.It turned out to be a little hen.I had her on eggs and like fool I let her out in between her eggs.Needless to say she bleww out her oviduct.As far as anybody getting these birds in the states.Forget it.Too much hassle to ship them.But I do appreciate the interest
Another thing.I have very few hard colored birds.Only red check selfs a few blacks 2 blue checks,2 blue bars.All the rest are yellow bars&selfs,almonds. mottles.Whites with red bars,red bars.mosiacs.and mealy silvers.Anybody that
is down my way in Ontario Canada,Is welcome to come and see them fly.I`m not afraid to fly them for you.You will see what I`m talking about.
STARFIRE
Stan Arnold
Last Edited by STARFIRE on Apr 04, 2006 4:41 PM
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Shaun
331 posts
Apr 05, 2006
11:34 AM
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This is an interesting subject and I'm reminded of Kevin's post recently about whether or not someone breeds from rolldowns and, if so, why? The consensus seemed to come down on the side of "Why risk it?" But, given that so many are now posting about managerial or environmental factors being the most likely cause of a rolldown in a particular case, why then be so concerned about breeding from a rolldown where often it could be attributed to feed, weather, or suchlike? If we can see rolldown incidents eminating from environmental factors, surely that's not the same as a genetic defect which we need to breed away from.
Shaun
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J_Star
376 posts
Apr 05, 2006
12:57 PM
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Shaun, a chronic roll down is nothing but a roll down. No ifs or buts about it. You can see it in their eyes and their cowerdness to fly. If you chase them to fly, they will just land somewhere else within seconds if they didn't hit the ground by then.
Jay
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