Double D
184 posts
Apr 06, 2006
6:17 PM
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I have 8 squeakers that are about 6 weeks old. They've been in the kit box going on 2 weeks this Saturday. They can fly and are trap trained. I've been feeding them pigeon mix once a day. I let them eat quite a bit, probably about 1 1/2 to 2 cups for 8 birds. I've stayed with the pigeon mix because as they are still young and developing, I've felt a well rounded diet is still needed. I let them out of the kit box everyday at about 6:00 P.M. and they fly right out and to the top of the kit box. The problem is, they don't want to fly from there. The last couple of days I've even tried to chase them up but they just take off a little bit and then land back on the top of the kit box. I'm hesitant to "scare" them off the kit box as I want that to be the place they come to land, not the place they are afraid of. Once on top of the kit box, they just stand there looking at me as if to say "feed me buddy". They seem really hungry and I wonder if I'm under-feeding them and that's why they don't want to fly. Other than flags, what tricks do you guys use to get your young squeakers to start taking off and spending some time in the air? Am I rushing mine too much? In other words, are they still a little too young to be expected to take off and spend a few minutes in the air? Thanks in advance!
Darin
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J_Star
377 posts
Apr 06, 2006
6:29 PM
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They will start taking their labs when they are ready. I will not chase them up yet. But others might. You will know when they are ready. Some time you add an old hen or a yearling hen with them. When they see he take off around your house soon they will join. Since you don't have an extra hen to do that, just let them be and they will do it on their own. But don't chase them until they take their laps couple of times.
Jay
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Velo99
342 posts
Apr 06, 2006
6:40 PM
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You can also take them a few yards from the box and release them. Works wonders for the "okay! go fly!" urge.
YITS
V99
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motherlodelofts
723 posts
Apr 06, 2006
6:42 PM
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Darin at that stage I let them eat thier fill, the next day they are empty and hungry again , you will learn when its time to push them with experiance and getting to know your birds.
If mine acted that way then they arent ready , once mine are ready they hit it and once up you know they are airborne for good.
Different familys vary though , call whoever your birds came from as they can give you more info than anyone hear that doesnt know that family.
Scott
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J_Star
380 posts
Apr 06, 2006
6:50 PM
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Scott my friend, pigeons are pigeons. The difference is always in the performance and management but in their instinct as pigeons. That is my opinion only.
Jay
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
464 posts
Apr 06, 2006
9:27 PM
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Darin, I wouldn't sweat it, they will fly when they are ready.
For conversation sake, here is what I do.
I start filling the box with the young squeaks and keep a feed tray with feed in it all the time. Once I have the box full or near full, I only put feed in the tray in the mornings when the other kits are flown/fed. I keep a fly pen out on the front of the door where the trap is and when I see a bunch of them sitting in the fly pen in the morning, I know it is time to open the door.
When my other kits are up, I'll just open the door and latch it open and let them come out if they want to. I leave the door open all day and close it in the evening.
After a few days there will be a few that will come right out after it is opened up. A few days later they will all come out and sit around on the roof. Again I perfer to do this when I have a kit in the air so they can watch them and experience the older birds landing on the same roof. And if any take off and fly around, there is a kit of birds for them to naturally migrate back to.
During this time I start to cut their feed (mix) back to where they will fly back into the box when they see feed being put into the tray.
After about two weeks of this, half of them will fly right out of the box and just keep on flying rather than sit on the roof. For the other half, I take my poking stick and run it along the roof, spoking them to take flight. I only do this once. Most of the slackers will fly around a bit. It only takes a few days of this and they will all be flying. I don't care if it is for two minutes or for 20 minutes. Once they are back on the roof I'll them sit for a few, then I put the tray in and call them in. Most will clamor in within a minute. This sets the pattern for them.
I wouldn't worry about spooking a young bird off the roof and having it disappear. Most will be back by sunset or the next morning. I personally prefer mine to get a little lost in the neighborhood and find their way back as that guarantees they won't be getting lost anytime soon.
By leaving the box open all day and letting them frolick around on the loft and kit box, they really learn where home is. It makes training them and getting them kitting and returning so much easier I have found.
Oh, and if you wonder if I loose any to the coopers by leaving them out, the answer is about one per kit, maybe. The way I figure it is I would rather train my birds and the ones that get eaten would have gotten eaten at some time or another anyway.
Brian.
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motherlodelofts
725 posts
Apr 07, 2006
7:22 AM
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Not really Jay , some families are harder to get off of the roof than other , is this the case ? I don't know.
Scott
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fhtfire
406 posts
Apr 07, 2006
8:16 AM
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I agree with Scott....When I had my different families...they pretty much all went off the roof at different times. Scotts, Emami and the Ruby's I have take to the air right away..some of the other strains would sit on the roof and watch the other three strains fly...and it was pretty consistant across the board. Hell, Scotts birds would kit in two flights.
rock and ROLL
Paul Fullerton
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C.J.
90 posts
Apr 07, 2006
8:29 AM
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I agree that if you but a couple of experienced birds in with them they will fly when they are ready. They are still young let them build their strength. If you have kids remember how it was when you were waiting for them to walk. It didn't happen over night.
C.J.
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siddiqir
188 posts
Apr 07, 2006
9:32 AM
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I believe they will fly when they are ready. Forcing them only create bad habbits (well some time I have no patient and I do force them). They will start sitting else where.
I am little concern about amount of feed you giving to them. You feeding them 1 1/2 to 2 cups for 8 birds, this sounds plenty of feed and they should not react the way you have explained...are you referring 8 OZ to 1 cup?
There is also another trick which some time works for me but you need to have atleast one bird which know the area...in case youngsters would not able to find home (kit box). I box them up and take them in front of house and let them lose (kit box is not visible). They start going up and try to find kit box (home) which force them to to fly up and they start to get on wings. Some time they do nothing and just sit on closest roof...they do not get lost however just sit on roof top in fornt of house from where kit box is not visible. Whiste them if they do not response take old bird and release it right in front where they sitting...one or two will start follow old birds and find home you may need to repeat it but this is one time thing and once done they know where is home...
This procedure is good if the birds should be on wings but just sitting around...I am just lazy some time and do not want to look for box catch them and release them from front....but it seem to work when every thing failed.
Last Edited by siddiqir on Apr 07, 2006 9:36 AM
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Mount Airy Lofts
186 posts
Apr 07, 2006
10:46 AM
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I have heard that some families would take for ever to take to the air. I have not experience my families myself so I can't attest to what has been said. My family is a natural strong flying family. Some of these suckers would take to the air not long after being put in the kit box. These suckers will still have pin feathers under their pits and be flying like veterans.
Each family will vary. Some take to the air right off the bat, while others don't.
I usually would trim my later take offs with feeding them a barely mix. This usually would do the trick.
You may want to start pulling back the non fliers. If you have a bird or two that is not going with the program or is younger then the rest, they maybe your problem. Remove these birds and you will notice a big difference in the eagernest of taking flight.
Thor
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Shaun
337 posts
Apr 07, 2006
1:36 PM
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Darin, I have nowhere near enough patience, so I'm afraid I'm a confirmed flagger. I get fed up sitting watching birds prancing around on the loft top, or coming to ground to peck about. I've flagged about two dozen since I started last year and have come to a few conclusions (obviously for my situation, only). The most useful piece of advice I read here was Scott saying that what you ideally want is for them to waft up, flap about then come back down. I found that this generally happens, so I just flick my Jolly Roger at them when I'm bored with them sitting about and I feel it's time they started to fly. They invariably just lift, circle a bit, then land. It's good practice for them whilst they're young, before they get too strong and might disappear over the rooftops. Sure, the odd one lands in a nearby tree then comes back down, or another might even stay out all night. However, I've only lost one in a year and I haven't driven myself mad with impatience.
However, this week I decided to let nature take its course and see what would happen if I didn't intervene. I just sat down and watched nine squeakers do what they wanted. Tempting though it was, I kept my hands firmly in my pockets and just observed. It didn't take long, though... a big wood pigeon flew just over their heads, so they got spooked and took off. They went up, they circled, they landed.
I'm sticking with my Jolly Roger.
Shaun
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Double D
185 posts
Apr 07, 2006
8:33 PM
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A little bit of progress today. 3 of them took to the air and stayed up for quite awhile. 2 of them, when they returned, flew right back to the kit box roof. The other one took off quite a distance and didn't show up for about 20 minutes but when it came in, it came right to the kit box roof. I fed them an extra feeding that I hadn't been doing during my lunch hour about 4 hours before I flew them. That may have been the difference. I'll continue to experiment. Tonight, after they all trapped, I did what Scott suggested and let them eat all they wanted. We'll see what tomorrow brings.
I sympathize with your lack of patience Shaun but I don't want to flag. I want my birds to take right to the air from the kit box eventually so that's how I'm training them.
It's just fun to finally have some birds I can fly even if they aren't doing 40-footers yet.
Darin
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STARFIRE
25 posts
Apr 08, 2006
9:10 AM
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Hey guys;
I take my young to the kitbox at 28-30 days old.I keep them in and feed them all they want to eat.I only feed wheat.I have a screen flightcoop attached to my kitboxes.
I let them stay in the kitboxtill they are almost over the squeek,then I let them out.I let them sit on the coop for 5 days.At this time they only get fed when the come in from the roof,all they want.Then take away their tray.After 5 days I flag them up.I leave the old birds out in the aviary so the young can see them at all times.I only chase them off the roof and let them land as soon as they want.I do this for about 2-3 days and then I make them fly and won`t let them come down,till they have flown about 10 min.With the old birds in sight.
By chasing them and letting them circle and come down,it makes them less nervous about landing in the coop.After about 10 days of this they will fly about 45 -60 min before coming down.At this time I lock up my old birds so they can`t be seen.By keeping them in till they get over the squeek,you eliminate a lot of going onto the trees and so on.They are strong.If they have any brains you won`t lose them.Iv`e been doing this for 40 years -works for me.
STARFIRE
Stan Arnold
Last Edited by STARFIRE on Apr 08, 2006 9:12 AM
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STARFIRE
37 posts
Apr 11, 2006
2:13 PM
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Hi DD.;
You say you feed them 1 1/2 -2cups of feed for 8 birds?Thats way too much.They must be fat.Thats maybe why they won't fly.I don't feed that much to 20 birds.Maybe 3/4
cup,for 20.Feel them,and if you think they are fat ,only feed them about 1/2 cup for a few days to thin them down.
If they are fat,when they get thinned down, you will see them get up a lot quicker,in a short time.
STARFIRE
Stan Arnold
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Velo99
362 posts
Apr 11, 2006
3:51 PM
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DD
Your feeding too much and the wrong times.
Here is my version:
I put mine on the floor at 3 weeks. During the third week there are several activities I engage in with the squeaks. I start trap training them with a ramp into the kitbox. Just run em up. Show em where all the stuff is ie... water bottle,feed trays and perches.I also put them in the cage for an hour or two so they can see the kit operate. Get a box to tote em around in. Handling the squeaks a lot at this point is a good thing. Makes em not afraid of you. Takes a few minutes a day.
Back in the breeder box start dipping the beak ,and watching for them to peck seed. I put my squeaks down by the feeder in the breeder box. It doesn`t take long for them to realise where the feed is coming from. Usually by the end of week three they will be wandering around pecking at the floor like a chicken. They are ready.
Week four they are ready to go into the kitbox. They can fly clumsily to the box from about 5 feet.After a week of "kitbox prep training" I am confident they will be fine. I set a few v perches right on the wire so they can get used to sitting them. They can just get up on a low perch but I give then other options. I need for them to be comfortable in the kitbox for a week or so til they settle in.
Week five more trap training and roof sitting.Usually by the end of week five they are making short loops around the kit box. Flying up about three feet and landing again. Testing the wings out.
By the end of week six I `ll take them across the fence and toss them; make em fly 20 yards or so. After that they usually take wing pretty well.
I have eight squeaks in the box right now. I feed them about a half a cup of pellets in the morning. In the evening I feed them about a half a cup of WBS. I make them earn this meal They have to fly/trap or walk into the kitbox to get fed in the evenings.
RULE NUMBER ONE: Always train your birds hungry You are in control not the birds. Feed is your tool. Never send em out of the box with feed in the crop.
V99
Last Edited by Velo99 on Apr 11, 2006 3:59 PM
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birdman
153 posts
Apr 11, 2006
5:58 PM
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I train my young a bit different. Most are bred in individual cages with their own water and feed and they learn to eat on their own pretty quick. At about 4 weeks they are transferred to the kitbox and allowed to sit on top of the cage everyday for at least one week. When it's feeding time, I whistle and shake the feed can so that they asociate the noise with feeding and release them from about 5-10' away from the open kitbox. Within about a week all I have to do is whistle and they are going crazy trying to get into the kitbox to eat. When I'm sure that they know who the boss is and where the feed comes from, I let them out on their own. Usually they fly to the top of the kitbox and then take a few laps around the backyard and then land on the top of the kitbox. If I shake the feed tray they come to me but if I whistle they immediately go in the kitbox, which is what I want. I want them all to come in as soon as I whistle. I almost never flag them as they like to fly at this point. Within 2 weeks most of them will be kitting and flying for around 10-15 minutes pretty easily. They are a little older than some guys prefer but I've found that I will lose fewer birds by taking it slow.
Russ
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J_Star
393 posts
Apr 12, 2006
5:11 AM
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Russ,
My methods are pretty much simillar to yours. It works and avoid losing birds.
Jay
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Double D
187 posts
Apr 13, 2006
1:15 PM
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So at about what age should I go from letting them have all they want once a day because I'm concerned about their growth to the small amounts and restricted diet you would put a competition kit on?
Darin
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fhtfire
415 posts
Apr 13, 2006
2:06 PM
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D,
When they are well into the roll and you move them from the youngbird kit...to a kit that is a little more active. Then you fly them every other day and play with the food a little more...but always keep in mind that they are still growing and maturing up to 6 months of age.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Double D
189 posts
Apr 13, 2006
6:14 PM
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When your birds first start flying, do you have some of them disappear for 30 minutes to a couple hours at a time? I ask because as I've had these birds begin to all start flying, most of them fly for about 10 minutes but I have 2 or 3 that always seem to disappear for quite awhile sometimes and not come straight back to the kit box. It's not always the same birds either. Then they come strolling in whenever they get good and ready. It's kind of frustrating. Will they learn to associate missing dinner time with not returning with the rest of the group if I don't feed them when they pull this crap? Thanks!
Darin
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Velo99
367 posts
Apr 13, 2006
6:30 PM
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DD
They are exploring the neighborhood,and yes they will associate missing a meal and should not do it too often.
This is pretty normal behavior.
v99
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Double D
190 posts
Apr 14, 2006
6:54 AM
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A couple hours turned into all night for 2 of my birds and they still aren't back this morning. What's odd about that is these two have flown quite a bit and know the area well and know how to get home. In fact, one of them landed on the roof tops that surround my back yard two or three times within feet of the kitbox and still didn't come down to it and that was just before dark. He must have been hungry and with a desire to roost and still didn't come down. I would think a young, hungry bird would want nothing more than to get inside his kitbox, eat, and find his perch before nightfall. Does this behavior seem odd to you guys?
Darin
Last Edited by Double D on Apr 14, 2006 6:56 AM
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siddiqir
202 posts
Apr 14, 2006
9:33 AM
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DD, not normal. Some thing is wrong there. May be predators are around. Birds usually circle around the kit box no matter how high they go and would like to get in before sunset. I think they feel comfortable when flying if they have kit box view (their home).
It sounds like they have fed really well and do not care to come down and sit else where. If they were hungry they should have responded given the condition they are not scared...you had cat problems...they may still be scared. I have one time cat entered in my kit box during night time (summer time and my bedroom windows was open, I heard lot of wing flipping and go right out to check and found cat have one birds in her jaws and looking for exit but she actually trapped in). She did not kill or took any bird but did long time harm. Cat made my birds scared and they had stayed scared for months.
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Double D
191 posts
Apr 14, 2006
1:12 PM
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The bird that had been hanging around last night but wouldn't trap finally trapped this afternoon at 1:00 P.M. I haven't seen hide nor hair, nor tail feather of the other bird. Something must have happened to him because I know he knows the area and his way home. I saw him the last time with the other two way off in the distance about 7:00 P.M. last night and haven't seen him since. I don't know how I'm ever going to get a kit together if I keep losing birds. I can't breed them fast enough apparently. I've got 7 babies in the nest right now with two more set to hatch in the next week or so. I'll just keep swinging and keep learning. The one that finally trapped today is not getting out again for a couple of days. Maybe that will help teach him a lesson as he is forced to listen to the rest of them flying around the kit box. Ain't I mean?
Darin
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maxspin
26 posts
Apr 14, 2006
1:44 PM
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Darin,
I would say that your being too nice. If it were me….. No food until it traps in with the kit. I would put it right back out with the rest of the kit. I'll bet that it would trap right in this time.
Keith
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nicksiders
524 posts
Apr 14, 2006
2:00 PM
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Put him/her right back up with kit and don't change your feeding schedule. If they don't trap with the kit they only get what is not already eaton. If everything is eaton he/she is sh.. out of luck. The next time he/she will readily trap.....or go hungry again.
Put 'em right back up on schedule with the rest of kit.
Just my 50 cent worth
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Velo99
368 posts
Apr 14, 2006
3:59 PM
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Darin.
Personally I don`t think that I would want a bird in my kit that gets lost 4-5 blocks from home. It is kinda the first cull. Mine do the same thing. I lost one last season that was 150 yards straightline of sight from my house.I lose three or four a season to dumbass.
mtc
v99
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Double D
192 posts
Apr 14, 2006
6:48 PM
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I'll be darned if the second one didn't come strolling back about 3:00 P.M. this afternoon. I locked those two up when I let the rest of the kit out this afternoon at 6:00. Now, I'm missing a different one, a bird that has been one of my strongest birds and most reliable to fly, return when done, and land right on the kitbox. I think these birds have lost their minds. They must need a vacation or something. You guys are right, I should have put them two birds up with the rest of the kit today. This is my first round ever and the only birds I have to fly so I've got alot to learn yet and so do they. They're only about 7 to 8 weeks old so I'm going to keep working with them and see what happens over the next few months. I really do appreciate the feedback. I wished I had read your comments before I let them out tonight. I didn't think about it the way you guys are explaining it but it makes sense.
Darin
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on a roll
19 posts
Apr 14, 2006
8:29 PM
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I would get a lazy cock bird that does not like to fly much,put him with them, one that makes short flys and back to the kit box, till they get going good.I have trees on three sides of me and power lines on two, takes a lot of patients and something to throw and a water hose,works for me they learn fast,sometimes. GOOD LUCK jerry
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Velo99
369 posts
Apr 15, 2006
5:52 AM
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Guys,
Sometimes I won`t let a repeat slow trapper get but a couple of bites then take the feed tray out. Motivational exercise.
mtc
v99
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Double D
193 posts
Apr 15, 2006
8:42 PM
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Jerry, I have the same problem with powerlines. My back yard is surrounded by them with another one that cuts right through my back yard on a diagnol. They're a real pain in the butt and the birds have taken to landing on them so I'm constantly chasing them off of them. Thanks for the hose idea, saves me from having to dodge the neighbors windows with dirt clods, rocks, sticks, the kids footballs, or whatever else happens to be laying around at the time.
That bird that left last night didn't return today. My wife says she saw it flying past the yard out our back window but I was out there quite a bit working on my new loft today and I didn't see the bird around at all.
Having them take off like this only to return a day later or two days later, or maybe never in the case of this bird just seems odd to me. Basically, even with the few birds I have to fly, if they are not going to get the job done and get it done right, I don't want them to come back. I had one tonight return about 20 minutes after all the others had trapped. He missed his dinner and he'll be sent out again tomorrow and if he don't return and trap with the rest of them, he'll miss dinner again. I'm going to start taking a very hard line with my birds' training from now on even if I end up with no birds to fly from my first round. They'll do it right or they won't be doing it at all!
Darin
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on a roll
23 posts
Apr 16, 2006
11:16 AM
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DARIN; just squirts with the hose, not a steady stream or your flying days might be over. i have sent out birds or culls if it is getting late in hope, that young bird might see and join them and help bring it home,leaving a bird on top of the kit box helps show the birds where to land and something to fly back too,my roof is flat and i leave the settling cage there 24/7 , some kit boxes i've seen or so sloped they must not use settling cages.don't know what to do there. i usually don't push my young birds for a week or so then gradualy,because there scared and don't know what you want them to do, once i know ,that they know ,where they leave ,the real flaging begins mybe that made sense. wish you luck, jerry
Last Edited by on a roll on Apr 16, 2006 11:43 AM
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Velo99
374 posts
Apr 16, 2006
11:22 AM
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There ya go DD.
You`ll notice a fdifference before too long.It keeps you from training on a case to cae basis. lmao
YITS
v99
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Double D
194 posts
Apr 16, 2006
6:36 PM
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I let the 7 birds I have left out today and they flew well, flew together for the most part, and 3 or 4 of them were doing flips for the first time. One bird put together 3 flips in a row with a pause between each one but hey, I'll take anything I can get. It's exciting to finally have birds to fly and now they are beginning to learn to roll. What a thrill to finally be starting to get there.
Darin
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on a roll
24 posts
Apr 16, 2006
8:06 PM
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you went from,not flying to already doing flips,thats not a good sign as a rule,how old are these birds,you might get to see alot of rolling all the way to the ground, hope not.dont over flag them,its hot and they dont have much endurance if you push them to hard they start landing everywhere but on the kit box. your going to get the hang of it. later
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Shaun
349 posts
Apr 16, 2006
11:52 PM
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By coincidece, Darin, I also have a seven bird squeaker kit, which I've finally persuaded to fly for over half an hour a time. It would have been 9, but a blasted sparrowhawk took one out, right under my nose. That hurt. Another bird was useless and kept landing, so I had to eliminate it. Anyhow, these other 7 little Masons are doing backflips, like yours (6-7 weeks old is when they start) and this is perfectly normal for this particular family. I expect to see most of them rolling properly at three months. Some will tell you that coming into the roll too early, might well lead to rolldowns. However, as ever, it depends on the family, so I would't worry, so long as that seems normal for the strain you have.
Darin, something else you will be considering: when your next batch of squeakers comes along, are you going to train them separately and eventually add them to the 1st round youngsters, once they've flown awhile, or are you going to introduce these next squeaks straight into the first round, as soon as they're able?
Shaun
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Double D
195 posts
Apr 17, 2006
1:12 PM
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My family of birds come into the roll around 3 to 4 months so I'm not too concerned that I'm seeing flips already. These birds have been flown daily for about 2 1/2 weeks now.
To answer your question Shaun, I plan to keep them separate. They are only a couple of months apart but I will initially keep them separate and then begin adding them as they start flying on par with the older birds. Once they can stay in the air as long as the older birds, and begin rolling, I'll start introducing them to the older birds. At the first hint, however, of causing bad habits in the older birds, I'll separate the guilty out right away.
I would like to hear some feedback from someone with a lot more experience than I have about my approach and/or the correct approach. The way I see it, I'm trying to put a kit together for the Fall Fly so I can't keep all the age classes separated for the rest of the year. But, at least initially, I've gathered that it's best to keep rounds separated until they all roll well, then you can begin to build your kit based on chemistry, individual bird performance, team performance, etc.
Darin
Last Edited by Double D on Apr 17, 2006 1:14 PM
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on a roll
26 posts
Apr 17, 2006
8:26 PM
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Some birds that dont want to fly, or come down early are sometimes the last out of the kit box and get left behind so deside to come back to the kit box. I throw,hand toss these birds right into the middle of first birds coming out of the kit box in hopes they will follow the our birds up and that works for me after a few times.
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