Planet_Rock_Lofts
23 posts
Apr 07, 2006
6:16 PM
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Hello All,
What physical trits of a roller make it faster or slower? Since all things move (fast or Slow ) based on physics and aerodynamics, what makes a roller spin so fast that it becomes a blur and other rollers roll or look like dish rags?
Planet Rock Lofts
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birdman
145 posts
Apr 07, 2006
7:30 PM
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In my opinion the bird has to have the right motor.
Physical characteristics will determine the style of the roll, but the bird's motor determines the speed.
Russ
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fhtfire
407 posts
Apr 07, 2006
9:16 PM
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You have to look at it like this. Why can one person do a cart wheel faster then another. Of course body type has something to do with it...but it is also the power and mentally and how much you put into it. I am a pretty in shape guy....I would say that during my hay day...I was built as good or better then a lot of male gymnast. But I tell you what...there is no way in hell that i could run...do a cart wheel, back flip, flip flop, to a one armed hand stand...get the point...there is no way in hell that I could do it...why not...we have the same muscle structure...I was problably strong enough to do it...but the main reason is the mental power to let it all hang out and not hold back. gymnasts know they can do it and they know that they need speed and power...so they run hard..plant hard from the very get go. Now back to my point...I had the power and the speed....but I did not have the mental strength to do it...because in my mind I have a fear of what...crashing...and if I run faster and use all my power to do all of those flips...I have a fear of crashing harder.....So I may have the same body...and I know I had the same competetive character..because I had no problem hitting helmet to helmet with a full back that was bigger then me. It is all mental....we have all seen the kid in football scared to hit...or the kid in baseball that jumps out of the batters box. It is all mental....the roller that is rolling hard and fast...mentally knows that he can do it...so they roll hard from the first spin...like a gymnast taking the first step to post for a flip.......now the bird that rolls but not hard is not mentally strong and is fighting it...for the fear of crashing and does not hit the roll hard for the fear of crashing harder....just like I would not be able to do a flip...why ...because mentally I am unsure about doing a flip and mentally there is no way in hell that I am going to run faster to land on my head harder....I can tell you righ t now...I may not have the mental power to ever be able to do a flip..it is all based on on the mental strength...
They may look alike but they are not mentally. It is in every sport...would you jump a motorcycle over two pick up trucks..most would not...even though they are say an athletic NFL running back...why would they not....FEAR!!
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Planet_Rock_Lofts
24 posts
Apr 07, 2006
9:41 PM
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So Paul,
You are saying that it is all mental? So wouldn't that mean that just as long as the bird was mentally able to handle it's roll ANY bird could roll fast or spin faster?
Dou you understand what I'm saying? It seems that certain physical traits are present on faster birds. For example, more muscular body (chest) is just one thing it seems in my birds.
It can't be just breeding the fastest or best to the best, unless those particular pairings incorporate the factors that make a bird rotate faster and we just did not know it.
Eventually you would get to the point where the roller could not get any faster. But first we or I need to know what makes them faster.
Paul I understand your point but pigeons are not that smart, I don't think that they can figure that they are rolling slower or faster.
I'm just trying to stop bumping my head by doing the exact same thing every year and get the same result. I want to improve every year with faster and better all around performing birds.
Planet Rock Lofts
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birdman
146 posts
Apr 07, 2006
9:55 PM
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Is a Ferrari a fast car because of its body design or is it fast because of its motor?
Now, take a Ferrari body and put a Fiat engine under the hood. Is the Ferrari body going to make the car any faster? Nope!
The bird has to have the right MOTOR to begin with.
Russ
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Planet_Rock_Lofts
25 posts
Apr 07, 2006
10:22 PM
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birdman,
what do you mean by "MOTOR?"
Planet Rock Lofts
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DHenderson
18 posts
Apr 07, 2006
10:39 PM
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from my experience the fastest birds have some things in common, thin, tight feathers and NO back cover(short and thin secondaries). Although there is always an exception to this I have encountered, with larger birds but kind of in porportion their smaller counterparts.
When you look at them they are not super coby looking when you look at them but appear to be small and short in the hand.
Dave
Last Edited by DHenderson on Apr 07, 2006 10:44 PM
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fhtfire
409 posts
Apr 07, 2006
11:23 PM
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The MOTOR is the mental aspect..or the receptors that are making the bird go into the roll..and making the bird come out of the roll. Of course I know that we are smarter..LOL! Pigeons do not reason...like we do...But I do think that there are some that have better smarts then others or a stronger instinct, or whatever you want to call it. Instinct is mental...everything that we and animals do is mental...the whole nervous system comes back to one thing the Brain and the brain is your mentality. Dave is right about some characteristics in his birds...I have characteristics in my birds...I have birds with crappy feathers that roll just as good as one with good feathers...I have birds that are bigger that roll just as good as the smaller birds. The mental aspect is what people call the motor...Through the studies done years ago at UC Davis..in the 70s on roller pigeons... is that the only thing the researchers found different in rollers then other birds is the nerve receptors in the back of the neck and the muscles on the back are super sensitive. They got to that point and ran out of money..anyway...that is the mental aspect...maybe some birds have nerve endings that are over sensetive and they mentally can't control it.
Back to reason...of course they can't reason like I do...I can make a decision to try and do a flip...but if you think that a roller that bumps and makes a mistake and never does it again is not smart....or maybe it is instinct... So a bird that hits hard and the next day you open the door and they stay in the kit box while the other birds take to the sky...there instinct tells them to fly with the other bird...smarts tells them to not fly or they will crash...or maybe they are banged up..let them heal and they still do not want to fly... Instinct tells a bird to KIT TIGHT...why does a bird that comes into the roll and does not like it...stay away from the kit...the bird is smart...it knows if it kits it will roll....the birds have to have some smarts. or is it just good instinct..whe knows! I am just giving my opinion...and my opinion is that some birds most likely have stronger receptors then others...some are mentally stronger to "control" the roll....some birds I think like to roll...those are the ones with "Character" the ones that everybody always says that they can see it in the eye that the bird is "smart"...some do not like to roll and will land, fly from the kit or not fly at all to keep from rolling.
The body is just a casing for the "MOTOR" or mental/neurological nerve thing going on. Because I have seen a pinto (crappy body) with a pumped up V-8 run a ferrari into the ground in the 1/4 mile...it is what is inside that counts! The motor...to me the motor of a roller is the mental capability to go into the roll fast and hard and pull out of the roll fast and hard.
I really do not think the little minor things in the body control the quality or depth..I mean...I had two birds that where nest mates...they looked identical in almost every way..one was a tight H/A and the other was an axle...and was slow..go figure...same body..same look...different motor. The motor in a roller is in the birds noggen.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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fhtfire
410 posts
Apr 07, 2006
11:31 PM
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Oh yeah one more thing...rust your are right...there may be traits in your birds, like you said chest muscles...well..I have a Campbell bird that it chest feels like a bone..no muscle and it is super fast and excellent quality...I have a Emami cock that has a big old fat chest rolls fast and excellent quality...I have a roller the size of a damn chicken and same thing...So...I think that proves that not just one trait make a roller roll....and to answer your other question...I do think that it is mental that a roller makes it self roll faster and harder and be able to pull out....why do we have stiffs...they control the roll...why do we have roll-downs...they do not control the roll..control and wing position...that is in the head...Of course ther is some muscle parts that I think all rollers have that are champion rollers and that is the back and wing muscles..all the good ones seem to have strong muscles to make them fast...but the brain and mental aspect of the bird is what puts thing wings in the right postition and pulls the bird out..but think of this...maybe the fast bird have it figured out..maybe it is easier to "Snap out" of a fast roll and just go with the flow...instead of fighting it..who really knows...but it is fun kicking it all around!
Paul
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Fr.mike
139 posts
Apr 08, 2006
7:11 AM
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Hey Paul--I will be 50 soon and I can do flips--no fear at all!-yea thats right! I can flip from my back to my stomach and then back again.Lol! Lol!
Fr.mike
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birdman
147 posts
Apr 08, 2006
7:28 AM
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Planet,
Are you starting to see the 'motor' thing? Paul did a pretty good job of describing what I originally said.
To me, the motor is the bird's internal wiring system, which controls speed as well as depth and frequency. A bird is mentally programmed to have a certain speed, depth, frequency, etc... I believe that the physical traits you are looking for CAN refine the roll to some extent, but physical traits alone do not make the bird fast. If you want speed, it's what's inside the bird that counts most.
Russ
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Velo99
344 posts
Apr 08, 2006
7:56 AM
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Another point to ponder is the "look". Is your bird scared spitless, rolling cuz he can`t help it or is he the kamikaze type that rolls with everything he has and likes it?
yits
v99
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STARFIRE
24 posts
Apr 08, 2006
8:23 AM
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Hey Paul:
You sure hit the nail right on the head.I agree with you 100%.What makes a bird spin is all mental.I don`t think it has anything to do with body size (big-small)or anything else.Thats why a big bird can be as good spinning as a small bird.I have bred my family for spin from the air,and I don`t look at anything other than the quality and depth.
I have bred this same family for 38 years,and I dont care what a birds body type,feather,size,character?,as long as it spins good.My birds come into the spin at 4-6 months and drop 30-40-ft by that time and lots of times earlier.
And not many roll down.Birds that can`t control the spin are mentaly weak.That includes birds that roll too much and can`t keep up,outbirds,bumpers,and the ones that want to roll 40ft,when they only have 15 ft of space,and rolldowns.The W.F. judge gave me 1.5Q-1.6D.and thats all I`m looking for.I also breed my birds close.B/S,F/D,M/S,
or any other way, irregardles of relationship.When a pair produces rolldowns I just separate the pair and try them on something else.Too many guys put too much emphasis on everthing but the mental aspect of the birds.You should have a new rule-if the bird is spinning fast and deep,
and stays with the kit the bird is right ,and NOTHING else matters .Just my take on these birds after 55 years experience
STARFIRE
Stan Arnold
Last Edited by STARFIRE on Apr 08, 2006 8:29 AM
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Planet_Rock_Lofts
26 posts
Apr 08, 2006
10:20 AM
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Thank You for the dialogue everyone, but I think some of you might be missing what I'm saying. Don't the physical limitations of the bird(s) determine how fast it can or cannot rotate? Lets say a bird did have the mental "MOTOR" but it's physical body was less resistance to certain forces wouldn't that allow the bird to roll even faster?
Planet Rock Lofts
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Velo99
345 posts
Apr 08, 2006
10:41 AM
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Gee Planet,
That encompasses the whole of this site. What makes a roller do well is the whole package both physical and mental.
A bird needs to have these things. Good feather,good balance,good mind and a good diet. If these critera are met your bird should be at least a functional part of an active comp kit.The subtleties of the make up of the bird are what this is all about.
YITS
v99
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fhtfire
411 posts
Apr 08, 2006
4:26 PM
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Planet,
Your question was answered...you were asking what physical traits make them spin faster...I think that everyone posted that the physical traits good and bad are so close that it really does not matter that much. To posts have stated that big birds, little birds, small keel, long keel, poor feathers...good feathers...they all seem to roll good and fast from loft to loft. I think people see certain physical traits in just there birds. But overall I really think that it does not matter unless the roller is a fantail type feathering or really freaky big. I am just stating what I have seen... standing under other peoples kits as well as my own...and comparing the many families that I have had when I first started. I mean...I am sure that tight feathers help a little..but when the bird gets going..is it really going to be a huge factor..I really do not think so...maybe minimal...and if it is only few fanciers would be able to see the difference. Just my thoughts. I think your question was answered by the posts..most people feel that it is more mental then physical that makes the bird a super fast roller...like I said..I have had reall muscular birds roll hard...and I have had birds that are as light as a feather and skinny..roll hard. I could be wrong..but I really think that your question was answered...and I really think that as far as physical traits go....that is in the eye of the beholder!
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Planet_Rock_Lofts
28 posts
Apr 08, 2006
11:13 PM
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I agree Jay,
Physics has a larger part to play than we think. However, I do believe that the mental is important as well. For example I have a blue bar hen that just recently started coming into her roll. Physically is has got it but mentally she can't handle the roll and after a few breaks she comes down and lands.
Planet Rock Lofts
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Velo99
353 posts
Apr 09, 2006
4:58 AM
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Planet,
If your bird is just coming in,and working that hard pull her over to the side and give her some extra groceries.Beef her up and she`ll get it under control a lot faster.Check for broken secondary flights. This will make a bird land early.
YITS
v99
Last Edited by Velo99 on Apr 09, 2006 5:00 AM
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smoke747
607 posts
Jan 23, 2008
10:41 PM
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here is an interesting topic.
smoke747
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quickspin
276 posts
Jan 23, 2008
10:58 PM
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One of the things I have notice on some fast birds is that they fit right into your palm tight. You grab the bird and is not loose you can feel the bird solid. Size doesn't tell how fast it will spin. I like smaller birds because I thought they spin faster and had less resistance to the roll. But I have seen some long cast birds at Rod house that spin there ass off and don't quit. Since then I really didn't care about the size of the bird is just built right and also mentally as well.
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SALAS LOFT
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3757
512 posts
Jan 24, 2008
6:21 AM
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Paul and Russ nailed it. A bird has to have the mental propensity. The motor (Mental inclination) is key. Have you ever seen a family that is built so well but they just do not have high velocity? I pretty sure you have and it is due to not having the motor.
Last Edited by on Jan 24, 2008 6:22 AM
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Les B
27 posts
Jan 24, 2008
9:43 AM
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A bird have to be balance in order to roll with hight velocity.First it has to have the physical traits= chest and back muscles, tight body feathers,and most important the mental aspect=a bird that love to roll at will,and control over the roll short or deep these are some of the things that must be there for high velocity rolling. There are other things that i look for to but these are the main things. Lester
Last Edited by on Jan 24, 2008 1:23 PM
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3757
513 posts
Jan 24, 2008
10:16 AM
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Les – We can agree to disagree. I have heard that statement a million times but it is ambiguous. Balance, what does that really mean? Balance to you may not be to another. Stan Plona’s birds were a little long caste, Hugo Blass, John Spuria’s and some of the other Pensom families etc but they could spin correctly with style and hypervelocity. I have a good friend who always talks about how a bird is suppose to be balanced and this bird is not built correctly etc and his birds look great but they do not cut the mustard in the air. They must be flown and there is no substitute. After flying the birds a person can start discussing balance, expression etc. The early 1930 imports that Bill Pensom, Bellfield and Skidmore called champions would be called junk to most today if it was based on type, expression and so called balance because they were off type according to some individuals today. If a bird spins with high velocity and style it is balanced. Tight feather, expression and type with no motor is just a good looking show bird!
Last Edited by on Jan 24, 2008 11:46 AM
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Les B
28 posts
Jan 24, 2008
12:55 PM
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Hello 3757 you are right balance to me may not be the same to another. I also know that the best from the air will produce the best in the air. But i also want to know what sets this best bird apart from the rest , if it's rolling correctly with speed I'm interested in the fine details that make it so different. So when I said a bird have to be balance it is in proportion to its physical and mental make up and those were just some of the details that i found in my fast birds. I don't care if a bird is long cast or what if it is rolling correctly with speed every thing will take care of itself. Lester
Last Edited by on Jan 24, 2008 1:24 PM
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smoke747
610 posts
Jan 24, 2008
2:35 PM
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Lester,
the best from the air don't always produce the best in the air. It is in no way that simple. I agree that you will get a good idea of what to expect but that don't mean you will get it. Like the saying goes ,if a fancier had to do is pick the best performers to breed from, everybody would have good pigeons in the air. We all know this is not the case. At some point we must look beyond performance.
smoke747
Last Edited by on Jan 24, 2008 3:41 PM
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Les B
29 posts
Jan 24, 2008
3:18 PM
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Thats right keith not every bird will reproduce itself but now you have a good ideal what to look for and try to reproduce more of it. This is the stuff that keep us going year after year
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smoke747
616 posts
Jan 24, 2008
3:48 PM
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Les,
there is a look in a pigeon that is so defined that the bird is almost talking to you saying," I am the one, just give me a chance an I'll show you." (EXPRESSION!)It takes alot of experience to see it.
smoke747
Last Edited by on Jan 24, 2008 4:09 PM
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Fire_Baller_916
76 posts
Jan 24, 2008
4:01 PM
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I believe that it's the body expression of the bird and the feather quality that make a bird spend with velocity...
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Chai
Raining Fire Loft
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
394 posts
Jan 25, 2008
7:28 AM
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Here we go again .this concept is so easy to figure out.....First TRUE TYPE will show itself in the air,,not my type or what we(you) want it to be,,,, but the true type.Investigate the high velocity bird in the hand from A-Z, this will and should dictate the way IT HAS TO BE!!!!Not my idea again but ,,,the way IT IS.
MOTOR== ==genetics.......velocity in the family in high percentage.........
CHARACTER== ==in the mind......intelligence...and desire(heart) TYPE== == keel placement-back--muscles---and wing feathers.
All these MUST take place to produce a clean high velocity spinner....It will not matter of the length of the bird or size....Just for the sake of breeding two birds together will not get you there ,, if it was this game would be to easy and BORING!!!!! It is up to us to try and keep up the engineering of the TRUE TYPE of the way it HAS TO BE!!!!To Maintain SPINNERS
R-LUNA
Last Edited by on Jan 25, 2008 7:35 AM
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CSRA
1183 posts
Jan 25, 2008
7:29 AM
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Very Interesting good subject Richard would you say character is the most trickiest of all whats your take on the one subject i mentioned
Last Edited by on Jan 25, 2008 7:32 AM
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GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
395 posts
Jan 25, 2008
7:39 AM
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Steve,,, all these SHOULD compliment or co-exciste together as much as possible,, but if your asking which one of these is more important than all ,,, I would have to say established velocity in the gene... to have spin not just roll.
R-LUNA
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CSRA
1190 posts
Jan 25, 2008
8:14 AM
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I was talking about character only because he or she can have all the right make up phenotypically and still will not spin correctly thats why i asked about chararacter heart desire right
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luis
560 posts
Jan 25, 2008
8:36 AM
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Well put R.Luna,that's why a bird lacking in one phisical area and making up for it in another still could spin.The bird that has all of the components including motor and mental strength will always outdo the others!
Would you agree?
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