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Ultimate Depth pt.2


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Planet_Rock_Lofts
27 posts
Apr 08, 2006
1:43 PM
There was a post on here a while ago (2004) about the deepest bird anyone has seen or the deepest roller they have. What currently is the deepest roller you have?

Planet Rock Lofts
nicksiders
511 posts
Apr 08, 2006
2:21 PM
40 to 50 feet..............I don't want them deeper than that. They get sloppier the deeper they go; they begin to fall apart; and they take too long to re-kit and the kit becomes un-ravalled.

I have had few do over a hundred feet, but they were culled. Form was crappy and velocity was lacking. And of course I have had them roll down from way up there and they were culled as well.

Last Edited by nicksiders on Apr 08, 2006 2:21 PM
Velo99
347 posts
Apr 08, 2006
3:34 PM
Planet,
I have 2 nice birds that go 20-70 maybe 80 feet. Red checks w/f. One broke three secondaries on each wing during the WC fly and landed early. She hit one that was 50 during the fly before she went down. Her brother is a cock bird that doesn`t do it often,but will hit 60 -70 feet. I saw him out of the corner of my eye rolling and counted to five and stopped, he was still rolling and I was so awestruck I forgot to count. Might have been 100 probably not but maybe.He wingswitched twice but it was still cool and he is still young.

He might have switched to keep upright. I noticed some of my birds on the deeper rolls get a lean,kinda like a wheel you roll on the ground and as the velocity bleeds away it starts leaning still rolling but leaning. Could this be the reason some wing switch?


yits
v99

Last Edited by Velo99 on Apr 08, 2006 3:38 PM
Mount Airy Lofts
189 posts
Apr 09, 2006
6:12 PM
I don't know about you guys but I would like to breed for as deep of a spinner as possible. The deeper the better. With that saying, depth means nothing to me if it doesn't possess the velocity, style, kitting, and control to stop on a dime. The deepest birds I have bred are multi-depth birds. These birds can roll 5' or crank out 50'. It seems like the deeper rolls hold the best velocity and style. As it seems to speed up at full strides. I don't breed many birds that roll past 50' with any kind of velocity make it pass the first year. The birds with depth and control seems to be linked with the multi depth rollers. The deep ones that are solid, usually kills themselves early in their life. Solid, meaning they are only capable of rolling that depth.
I like to breed them deep but that will come with the correct matings some where down the line. Right now, all I need to worry about is maxing them out with the velocity and control to not kill themselves. That usually ends at the 40' mark. That is a solid 3-4 sec. roll.
Thor
STARFIRE
32 posts
Apr 09, 2006
6:37 PM
Thor;
Multidepth birds are mentaly weak, that is why they rolldown
When they dont know if they are going to roll 10ft or 50ft how can they not roll down.When they come to land they don't know what depth to go.One time they will do the 10ft and maybe a week later they willgo 50ft and down they come
Its better to have birds that will only roll a certain depth consistently whatever that depth is.That way they learn to control themselves at all times,and don't crash
My family are all 30-40 ft deep.I never have a mutidepth bird or a short bird.They all roll at the same depth,but when they come to land they shorten up to 5-10ft rolls.They have the mental capacity to know how deep to roll in a safe manner---------
STARFIRE
Stan Arnold

Last Edited by STARFIRE on Apr 09, 2006 6:38 PM
Planet_Rock_Lofts
29 posts
Apr 10, 2006
6:40 AM
Starfire,

You're confusing me, isn't a bird that can control its depth from 5ft. to 40 ft a multidepth bird? You said they are mentally weak, doesn't that prove that they are not mentally weak?

Planet Rock Lofts
STARFIRE
34 posts
Apr 10, 2006
10:26 AM
Hi Panet Rock;
What I'm talking about is multidepth birds that fly in a kit that fly at a good height.They vary their rolling depth from short to long.When these type of birds come in to land they don't seem to have the brains to not take a deep roll as opposed to taking a short one.Thus lack of control.A good deep bird that performs at a consistant depth-say 30 ft.-and then comes in to land will shorten his depth so as not to hit,and will not roll deep in these cicumstances- maybe 5-10 ft(control) this is not a multidepth roller because he is consistently rolling in the 30 ft range when they are at a considerable height.Whereas the other type is rolling all kinds of depths while at a considerable height(Lack of control). These multideph rollers are the ones most likely to be the ones that roll into a tree or hit the neighbors roof when coming down,because they dont seem to have the ability to control their depth,when they get low. It's been my experience when a bird varys its rolls from 5 ft to 50 ft they will eventually roll down.----------
STARFIRE
Stan Arnold

Last Edited by STARFIRE on Apr 10, 2006 10:35 AM
Alohazona
133 posts
Apr 10, 2006
10:26 AM
I agree with you Planet rock,My better more consistant spinners will shorten It up over obstacles like the 2nd story to my home.i have seen the type Stan is describing,by far I have seen more that adjust their depth for whatever reason rain,wind,obstacles,etc.The family I have is Plona based much like Thor's.Mentally unstable,Idon't think so,they fly in my holdover,2 times a week for the past 4 years weather permitting,surely they would have culled themselves by now or at least bumped,neither has happened.....Aloha,Todd
Mount Airy Lofts
190 posts
Apr 10, 2006
11:05 AM
Stan,
You have me all confused here. What is your diffintion of a Multi-depth roller?
I am not saying that a solid roller is not a good roller as I have flown great birds in both catagory. My good solid rollers when flying below 50 ft would shut if off competely. No rolling, tumbling etc at all from these birds. Once they reach a good hieght, it is like they are a totally different bird - working their butts off at a consistant depth.
My multi-depth birds when low will adjust their depth. Some will only tumble when low, others will give off short spins - say 5 feet. When landing, some will even do one flip or half a flip (catching itself) not too high off the roof. Once at a good hieght, they will change up their depth with each performance. Usually the depth of the other team members will dictate it's depth. Say one roll is 10 feet, then on the next break, it will rip a 30 footer. Then rip a 20 footer after that. All depends on the other team member's performance.
If you call such multi-depth rollers mentually weak, then I'll take them off your hands as I like such birds. I think such birds are as smart or even smarter then a solid depth bird. As they have the know how to adjust their depth with each performance. Meaning they control the roll, not the opposite.
How could a multi-depth roller be mentually weak when it controls it's rolls?
A solid roller to me is a bird that is capable of rolling just one depth no matter how high it is. Say if it was a 40 footer and is flying at 30 ft above the ground, if it rolls, it will come all the way down every time. Now, this is mentually weak if you asked me.
Thor

Last Edited by Mount Airy Lofts on Apr 10, 2006 11:15 AM
motherlodelofts
727 posts
Apr 10, 2006
11:14 AM
I think that everyone is on the same page here , just the terminoligy is off.

Scott
Velo99
359 posts
Apr 10, 2006
2:39 PM
Stan,
I saw a frame by frame video showing the roller actually looking at the ground while rolling to see his relationship to the ground and the kit.He looked down and then to the left. Several here have seen the video on Earls List.
I feel a roll down is a bird that literally closes his eyes and doesn`t look where he is going. The multi depth birds see the ground coming and reacts accordingly. Most of the rolldowns I have encountered had that "oh shit" look in their eyes.
YITS
V99

Scott
What is your take on the wing switch theory I put out there?

Last Edited by Velo99 on Apr 10, 2006 2:40 PM
motherlodelofts
728 posts
Apr 10, 2006
3:45 PM
Kenny they are fighting the roll.

Scott
Planet_Rock_Lofts
30 posts
Apr 10, 2006
3:56 PM
Thank You gentlemen,

I thought I was losing my mind for a moment when I read that post about multi-depth birds being mentally weak. I also have a bird that can adjust his rolling ability from a couple of tumbles to about 80' - 90 feet. When I first saw this bird roll about 80 feet I just took it as an accident and it would never happen again. But it did happen again, again and again.

The thing about this bird is he has never rolled down and when he first started rolling he never did any tail sitting or flipping he just started rolling. I thought that was even stranger since i have never had a bird do that before.

This birds father could roll from 10 - 100 ft and never rolled down, the hen I have him on produces some very fast spinners.

I am looking forward to what both father and son will produce later this year.

Planet Rock Lofts.
Velo99
360 posts
Apr 10, 2006
4:09 PM
Planet,
No doubt, Would be nice to have a kit of those puppies.
v99
GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
45 posts
May 22, 2006
7:47 PM
Planet,My opinion is that wing switching is aweakess of some sort of faults in the birds make up,such as mind,lack of muscles and or length of back. I like smart birds who can give short rolls or spins on shallow heights and when gained altitude can bust deep rolls or spins on his will. I have bred and still own (BLUE-BOY) and (354)ANTHRAX LINE- two exceptional deep birds straight - velocity - and style with smartness ,BLUE BOY would have no problem getting back to the kit every time to do it all over again,at a lower altitude he would only do 5's and 10's. (witnessed by others). He bred me a son that was flown by JU-JU BEARD in OXNARD(8-BALL ROLLER LOFTS)and witnessed by many also that i could say was a near champion,(intelligent- control at his will).....Those birds who display consistant same depths are definatly nice to see(i use them in the stock loft also)really do not have control at will,not what you would call champion material,sort of what Pensom wrote about the champion........I do agree with what THOR posted ....... R-LUNA

Last Edited by GREED FOR SPEED LOFT on May 22, 2006 7:47 PM
Velo99
441 posts
May 23, 2006
3:02 PM
Okay Guys,
We have all given our opinion of what we should breed and breed to.
Who has actually done it. Set a goal and actually came out with pretty much the bird(s) you wanted?

What were the easiest traits to express first?
How long did it take and what was the motivation behind your choices for breeders?

yits
v99
MCCORMICKLOFTS
544 posts
May 23, 2006
4:02 PM
Kenny, I don't think there is anyone who can honestly say they have arrived at the end result of their goals of breeding and flying rollers. Everyone with their head in the game is constantly striving to achieve the goals they set with their birds. A commonly used term which more than accurately discribes rollers is that it is "a constantly moving target".
I can say that from my experience it is easy to eliminate many of the negative traits from reproducing at any irritable percentage. Selective breeding will reward those who make the right decisions. Flying the "ultimate" rollers is building process which takes lots of time. Once the stuff like non-kitting, bad habits, and primarily, bad performance are eliminated from the stock loft, the person will have the opportunity to narrow down their focus on the finer specifics of their birds. In some ways it kind of goes back to my age old saying that to fly good rollers you have to have started with crap. Some might disagree but this is my opinion. When a person learns about all of the negative features their birds produce, and are willing to remove them from their property, they begin to learn not only what is important in terms of mentality and performance, but what it takes to generate a greater percentage of what they want to see and less of what they don't. This process allows the person to better understand what makes these little birds tick.
I believe that the things we don't like (such as wing switching for example) as well as superb performance are both largely genetic. There are certain consistencies that exist in rollers. Over time a person can being to understand the simplicities as well as the difficulties. When a person can see these differences, recognize what they are, are willing to take action in regards to them, the end result will be the reward of flying rollers which are closer to the ultimate goal.
That's my .02
Brian.
GREED FOR SPEED LOFT
47 posts
May 23, 2006
10:10 PM
Brian, I could of not said it any better(RIGHT ON !!)


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