rust never sleeps
46 posts
Apr 20, 2006
6:13 PM
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I just whould like to throw this question out to everyone. If you have more than 3 or more family of rollers are you a collector just to keep rollers which is fine because it's a great hobby! Or are you more SERIOUS HARD CORE BREEDER that if your cultivating by joining 3 or more family together and spend over 5 years to make by taking chance's.The best breeders in history took chance's by CULTIVATING there own, making into one family by air testing and culling. the top flyers, check in there lofts 90% of the top flyers, breed one family. that why i say good for the cultivator! This hobby need them.
Last Edited by rust never sleeps on Apr 21, 2006 7:25 AM
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FULLTURN
15 posts
Apr 20, 2006
6:24 PM
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Having more than one family of birds is just fine but you need a good reason for outcrossing them. Most new fanciers have no idea what they are doing when they outcross families. My advice is to restrict your breeding pairs to their own family. It the wise breeder who takes advantage of the years of selective breeding the originator of the family invested. If the family doesn't have what you want, rather than outcross, find another family. Fanciers who have close families rarey bring in a bird from outside.
Mixing family traits is a risky business.
Ron
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
483 posts
Apr 20, 2006
8:35 PM
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Nothing wrong with having multiple families, or experimenting with crossing. It is not taboo. You get what you get, good or bad, and learn from it then take another step towards where you want to be.
I have three families, one is a Cultivated family, one is a 20 year old family and one is a hodge-podge of birds from a larger group from the same background. It doesn't matter what family you have, who made them or how many of them you have. What matters is what they do for 20 minutes.
Are you ready for Saturday Ron? Weather looks good.
Brian.
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motherlodelofts
734 posts
Apr 20, 2006
9:03 PM
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What has worked for me is one family , and even then it has taken years of sorting, breeding and flying to find the direction within the family that ended up evolving around just a few select birds and to find a path that gives me the goods.
The benefits of developing a firm family as far as consistacy when it comes to management and learning the particulars of what makes your birds tick is invauable.
For me different birds on the property just isn't even worth the trouble and just confuses my focus.
Besides the breeding plan and focus is allready in gear and what I need is allready on the property , just have to make more of what my best has to offer.
The fact is I can stay busy enough trying to move forward without outside influances cluttering me up and taking perch space.
Scott
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Apr 20, 2006 9:05 PM
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fhtfire
422 posts
Apr 20, 2006
10:36 PM
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I have 3 families in my loft right now. All three are from very good fanciers and they are all very tight families. You can have three families or two families...I feel....as long as they can fly together and are not that different. It really makes it hard if the families are at each end of the spectrum. I am not talking about the way they look..I am talking mostly on how they react to conditioning and feed. If they can't fly as a team...the you are out of luck. If you feed wheat and half the birds land early and the other half fly for three hours...that is not going to work. What really confuses me is when someone says that crossing two families is so hard and so horrible and is hard to do. It is ALL hard to do...rollers in general is what I am saying. I just think it is funny that most of the tight knit families 4 or 5 generations back..the birds seem to come from many different lofts and then the focus starts narrowing down. ANyway...I am going to make a post on the above...but the main thing is yes..you can fly different families....one...to find the right family for you...and two..as long as they have the same characteristics..or three they CAN be at each end of the spectrum..but you may have to fly two or three kits of just that family..all the above can be done.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
580 posts
Apr 20, 2006
11:42 PM
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It is my opinion that established Birmingham Roller families are the product of the extent of understanding of the roller ideal and the personal preferences of the hard-core breeder.
I have found that within my family of Ruby Rollers (which were the combination of several families) there are actually sub-families offering several possibilities as far as directions I could go.
I can choose offspring that are calm and easy going on the perch that will let you just pick them up, I have others that seem to would rather die than be handled. I could select for shorter beak, smaller cobby birds, competition depth birds or much deeper, etc.
As time goes on the family traits I select become more dominant and tend to be locked in a pattern until I or another breeder begins selecting other traits that pop up and go in a new direction.
This season I am flying kit birds bred from some stock birds that show me calm and others that show me “attitude”. I am looking to see if this mix will produce a harder rolling bird but not so high strung on the perch.
My point is you may not need more than one established family in your loft if you breed enough of them and study the differences (which may have been due to multiple families being combined in the past) and select for other traits you may prefer or meet your understanding of the ideal.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Velo99
382 posts
Apr 21, 2006
5:07 AM
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Tony,
I have 6 strains in my kitbox right now.I have 5 in my breeders. I am also in ny second season of breeding. I feel the number of famlies one has in their program could very well be related to how long they have been breeding. In my situation I will bred down to one family in a few more years. I also have a pair of nestys I am saving for a f4 outcross. I think this pair have what it takes to be good breeders. I just have other plans in mind right now I think will work better.
I certainly believe that ultimately one related family would be an easier row to hoe, it isn`t a necessity. Just don`t get involved in ped chasing. Breed for type. Pedigrees don`t fly and names don`t roll. All that counts is what ya see when your under the kit.
MTC
v99
V99
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Ballrollers
331 posts
Apr 21, 2006
5:46 AM
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Rust, Guys,
It seems to me that most guys who are serious about competition, have at least 2-3 families that they work with, Scott and Kenny being the exception, who work with primarily one family. I haven't yet decided which I think is the better method. I am working with two primary families, Turners, from Jay Yandle, and Henry Cook birds from Jay. I have three strains; lines of each that are not crossed, and a line that is crossed and producing some real speed. I also have a couple pair of Joe Bob's birds, which are a blend of several families. But for now I intend to keep them separate. I also have two pair off the Old Almond Cock from Don Simpson in South Carolina that I am keeping separate. The latter two strains are more of an experiment for comparison's sake. So in some respects, I have "collected" a couple extra families to play with. On the other hand I am serious about the key families that I breed for competition.
YITS,
Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Apr 21, 2006 5:49 AM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
582 posts
Apr 21, 2006
8:26 AM
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Hey V99, I am not trying to criticize anyone’s decision to have multiple families, that wasn’t the point of my post. Just wanted to bring up that maybe you (rhetorically speaking) already have what you need within one family.
I have built my family of Ruby’s from stock I got from 1 loft in the mid 1990’s. The person I got my start from already had excellent birds that demonstrated the traits I was looking for. Over the years I have selected offspring from within this family that I believe will get me closer to my interpretation of the ideal Birmingham Roller.
By starting this way, I have literally saved myself years of experimentation and frustration and perhaps ultimately failure as there would be no guarantee that any of that effort would have improved any of the original families I was combining had I started with multiple families.
I have built my Ruby family on birds based on the previous experience and years invested of another fancier I trust and respect, he built his family on the previous experience of fanciers before him and so on it goes.
Remember, it’s your loft, your birds, your backyard, do what you want. I am just saying that for me, this is how I did it.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
732 posts
Apr 21, 2006
9:12 AM
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Tony.Why was the Loft you got your start from breeding from several different families? David
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
583 posts
Apr 21, 2006
11:52 AM
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Hey David, I spoke with Sal to ask him directly to get the facts straight, to make a long story short, he spent 9 months scouring Southern California for the best birds, he found that the Corderre name kept popping up in the best kits that he saw. He obtained birds from breeders whose stock went back to this individual. He subsequently met Homer Corderre and became friends with him.
As it turned out, Sal learned that the family’s he was acquiring were all descended from Pensom’s 514 stock. Homer got stock from his best friend Stanly Plona (who he called Stan). Homer was pals with Lee Myer, Bob Evans and Pensom back in the 50’s and 60’s.
Homer Corderre lived on the East Coast before he moved to Southern California back in the early 50’s. Eventually rubbing elbows with Pensom in Canoga Park, CA.
My family that I call Ruby Rollers can be traced back to the old Pensom 514 genetic pool from very reputable breeders back in the day.
In conclusion; while Sal may have acquired birds from 2 or 3 breeders, they were all breeding birds originating from the Pensom 514 stock. So the gene pool was not so different. Sal has no problem with me selling these birds and doing what I do, he knows that quality stock is being made available to fanciers throughout the USA who might not otherwise have a chance to get such quality and history into their breeding lofts at such reasonable prices unless they happen to “know the right person”.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
734 posts
Apr 21, 2006
12:35 PM
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Tony.So in all reality most of the rollers in the USA are not that far from the gene pool.They are just lines developed off of what Pensom imported to this country weither it be the 514 line or another roller that Pensom imported.
So I guess from what Jay is saying in the other thread is that what we all are doing is Outbreeding not Outcrossing.Still keeping it in the family.
What I still don't understand is why your buddy Sal selected the best from 3 Lofts rather than pick from just one.And why you didn't follow in his footsteps if it worked well for him? Just curious as to why you decided to build a family from one pair.David
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motherlodelofts
739 posts
Apr 21, 2006
2:30 PM
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Most of us start out with multiple families, sooner or later you have to hone in and around what is producing the goods , or you just keep collecting
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Apr 21, 2006 2:31 PM
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nicksiders
539 posts
Apr 21, 2006
4:56 PM
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Hone in and around what is producing the goods I believe is the answer. I think there is more danger in an ever increasing gene pool. Controling the known entities is always easier than the unknown. Everytime you widen your gene pool you lose some control over your product.
Just my opinion, but keep in mind I only believe half of what I say.
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Velo99
383 posts
Apr 21, 2006
5:25 PM
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Tony,
No offense taken bro. I was simply pointing out that one doesn`t have to have a super refined bunch of birds to be successful. Mine are due to my short amount of time in the sport. In a couple of years I will be down to one or two lines.
I know a guys who has like 40 pairs of breeders from different stock. Kind of a mish mash of this and that. When I watch his birds fly it shows in the breaks,and quality of the rolls. I am a proponent of a tight bloodline small breeding operation.I tried to get him to pick out three pairs and just foster the crap out of them. No dice. He has to see which pair is gonna have the goods,if any. The man is running in circles.
yits
V99
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
584 posts
Apr 21, 2006
5:45 PM
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Hey David, I asked Sal about why he picked stock from more than one loft and he said he did not know better as he was just getting into rollers at the time.
He was fortunate in that since he was pursuing the best he could get in the circles he ran in, he ended up with birds that were consistently bred to bring out the best qualitys of the Birmingham Roller by guys who know how to accomplish it and they just all happened to be families with the same or very common background (514).
I did not build my family with one pair, I used 2 cocks (903 and 994) I got from Sal as they had what I was looking for in rollers at the time, plus I had and still do have complete access to any birds in his loft as he does mine.
I was fortunate in that I had a vision of where I wanted to go with my birds and from what I saw of Sals success in competition and his strong reputation, I knew I was taking the right track to success with this family.
When I was a kid, I had a chance to see quality rollers at Bob Scotts lofts and Frank Lavins as well as Dennis Hayes. I picked up from them that the best rollers are from established quality families.
While I got started with stock from Sal, I had my own goals and they could be a little different than his.
David, do you believe the only way to success in rollers is to combine families until something good pops out or do you work with a line of birds to see what they have and breed them up toward the ideal Birmingham Roller?
Sorry you don't understand Sal's reasoning for his doing what he did. I hoped I explained it better this time so you can understand. If not, oh well...LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
585 posts
Apr 21, 2006
5:59 PM
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Hey David, by your tone of questioning, seems you have another way of thinking about breeding. Perhaps you can let us all know the best way to breed Birmingham Rollers that you use. I think you mentioned best to best in another post, what is it that actually did? What trait or traits did you start with and which ones did you have to add from other families that they did not already have? Did you find that you lost any previously established traits by using another family?
How have they held up over the years? Are you cherry picking traits in some birds from the family to re-ignite lost traits or have you seen new traits come out that you liked and are now trying to establish them in your birds?
Have you ever brought in birds and bred them to your family or families that was not based on performance to get some other trait or color? Just curious buddy! LOL
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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motherlodelofts
740 posts
Apr 21, 2006
6:40 PM
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Tony wrote : "How have they held up over the years? " BINGO !!!!!!!!!
no the top breeders in the country are NOT just crossing up families !!!!!
sounds like a lot of inexperiance here and nothing more
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Apr 21, 2006 6:47 PM
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George Ruiz
105 posts
Apr 21, 2006
7:14 PM
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Fellas I have had better results breeding one family i discarded all the birds that I had before that were from the Bob Scott line and went with the Duncan line by way of my friend Jim Stephens
these birds are what I liked in the way they flew (slow flying, rolled frequent, and deep,and fast, )
If you look at the top competitors in the most recent flys you will see that a few are flying birds from this line I just wanted a line that was proven in big flys and had a Proven track record in World Cup and Fall Fly
I learned years ago when I trained racehorses that if you do the basics and train youll only be as good as your stock .
Last Edited by George Ruiz on Apr 21, 2006 9:25 PM
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