fhtfire
423 posts
Apr 20, 2006
11:26 PM
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I really want all the fanciers to give me there take on what I am about to post. It seems that some things that are said in the Roller world...just plain...does not make sense. So I would like some input. Ok..here it goes.
It has been talked about over and over about crossing a tight knit family. It could be bringing in an outcross to an established family or crossing two established families. Many fanciers say that you should never cross two established families..you will ruin the families or it is to hard to do...... you have to be an experienced fancier to do it and it is really risky. I have also heard that if you get different birds from different families that you will get garbage after the F1's.
Here is the confusing parts. If you look at a lot of established families....go back 4 or 5 or even 6 or 7 generations and you will find birds that came from many different lofts. Lets take one (jon doe bird) Ok..you go back 4 or 5 generations and a lot of times you will see a cock from one fancier a hen from another...and yet another cock from a different fancier and yet another hen from a different fancier...then as the pedigree narrows you start seeing certain birds that become the primary focus. You see the same cock here and there..but yet another hen from a different loft...then as it narrows more you start to see the same loft name or fancier name on all the birds. So...it seems to me that most good families were started by many different birds from different families and then the focus is just around some particular offspring and then pretty much you see the birds that are now the "NEW FAMILY" So my main question is...why do so many fanciers preach that you should never cross birds or start out with different families...that you will end up with garbage.
Is that truly wrong? So what I am hearing is that if I took a Campbell pair, a Ruby Roller Pair, A Nicksiders pair and a Black Elvis pair...and then crossed the superstar offspring from those pairs and a handfull of those offspring produced some real good birds...then you focus on those real good birds and then maybe breed back to the original Campbell pair and Ruby ROller pair. Then breed those offspring to the offspring of the Black elvis pair and Nicksiders pair..and they produce good offspring and then you breed those birds to cousins of the latest offspring and produce a super cock and breed him to every crossed hen and you are still moving forward......then you would see the peds on the 4th or 5 th generation closer in relation with the 2 and third generation...all stemming from the original proven spinners from different lofts. Would you no be starting "YOUR" family or strain. Saying it can't be done and that it is risky...does not seem right to me. It seems to me that most established families started that way way back when. I mean you read old writings that joe blow loaned a champion cock to Big Earl and produced 521 that was a potent cock and that cock was put on two hens from george and one from Billings and they produced two hens and one cock from those matings that were champions and they were bred back to 521 and then those offspring were bred to a cock from my old line this or that....get my point..it seems that it all started out from what...SELECTIVE breeding from different birds or stains...and then you focus around a handfull of birds and then really start trying to put together a strong family. I really feel that nobody has the power to say..if I breed this to that I am going to get this....I have raised livestock and birds for many years...and it NEVER works out that way. It is trial and error. You try this pair and see how they produce..it they do not you move the cock around or the hen around..and still nothing..you move on and try something else...then that pairing works and then you fly the offspring of two great pairing and then you try them out and so on. It just seem that you just happen to get the right genes together and they produce.
I really do not believe that every F1 from a crossed family will not produce. I have bred enough animals to know that it is plain not true. One of those F1 animals or birds will have the goods...it just takes..again..trial and error. With all things equal..I am talking about doing all of this crossing with top notch stock..not garbage. I am sure that some will not work...and I am sure that some will. I think the key is keeping the original strains seperate..so if you hit a wall you can go back and take the left fork in the road instead of the right...we do that now with our established families. If something does not work...we start over with a different pairing. Then if we get an animal or bird that passes it on...then that becomes the focus of the whole program...and then you start circling the wagons around certain birds and establish your own family. I totally understand that you have to focus around a curtain number of birds to narrow the pool...or you will be shot gun blasting all over the place...I am talking about before you get to the point of focusing around a hand full of good birds. I am talking about the different families of birds or a just one family of birds and 2 cocks and hen from a different family or what have you. I am talking about that mixture of different birds that produce the "focus"birds.
I am not talking about starting with 40 pairs from 4 established families. I am taking about a handful of good pairs and trying different matings...just like we do with our new pairs from our tight families. Again, I really do think that you have to stay focused and know what a good bird is and what a good producing pair is to pull it off. I think most of the old fanciers on this site could do it if they took the time..and produce 100% there own family. I also think that not everyone can do it... that is for sure..because you have to have an eye for it. Plus mother nature is kicking your ass the whole way! But I also do not think that it is brain surgery like a lot of fanciers think that it is. So....I would like some input on what I have posted...I am not taking a side either way...I am just wondering why so many say that it is bad when some of the very families that they are flying and proud of stemmed from a hodge podge of super birds back in the day. If I did not make any sense...just call me a retard and move on LOL!!! This is just something that I have really been thinking about a lot...when I look at the pedigrees of some established families. I am not saying that all families were done this way...but Rollers did not start from one pair only.
It has brought up the curiosity because I have bred Champion livestock and to produce your family of livestock..you start with livestock from different breeders and put it all together and keep the best of what comes out and take notes on what animal fixes what fault or produces what good traits. Why do you think that a Champion Race horse blows its wad and is spread all over the World for a small fortune or the offsping of the stallion are bred to different families...why..to outcross or bring in that bloodline....just like a nice champion cock would do..offspring shipped from coast to coast....to try and get that blood in the loft...it is like that with racing pigeons too..isn't it....ok I am done.
rock and ROLL
Paul
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
581 posts
Apr 21, 2006
12:08 AM
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In my opinion, (it is 2am so forgive me) you have to ask what is your time (in years) worth? By selecting an established family, you have more homozygous traits and therefore an established pattern to follow.
If it is felt some trait is missing (say velocity), then you can go outside the family but the risk is that you will begin producing birds that show traits you may not want in trade for that outcross and spend a couple seasons to find out.
My advice would be to breed more youngsters from your family and find one that has the trait you are looking for. Now you have your "outcross". Same family, NEW direction??
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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motherlodelofts
737 posts
Apr 21, 2006
1:12 AM
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Paul after reading that long post only one thing came to mind and that is , what is the purpose ? that question wasnt addressed due to I don't think there is a purpose.
I have had several families on the property but it came down to simply what is fastest route from point A to B.
Yes you can get to B by crossing but there is just to many twists and turns on the way.
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Apr 21, 2006 1:17 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
730 posts
Apr 21, 2006
3:54 AM
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Paul.Wow! You put into one Post what I have been trying to say for the past 3 years.LOL.
I am glad to see someone thinking the same things I do.I like what I am seeing by crossing families and I think that if you want to be Competetive in the Flys this is a good way to go.The percentage of good kit rollers seem to be a lot higher with this type of breeding.
The reason you hear so much about it being so risky or it takes so much time is because the ones that are saying this either don,t want to change or they don,t want everyone doing it.However you nailed it when you said so many of the Families that started did so by this very practice.Can you imagine if everyone bred this way? You can bet I will continue doing it.LOL. David
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J_Star
402 posts
Apr 21, 2006
4:36 AM
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My friend Paul,
After reading your long post, which I think you put allot of thought to it, I think you are not outcrossing anything by the way you describe. Rather, you will be mating best to best until you get a superior bird(s).
Outcrossing is a concept that the terminology is misused and misunderstood. Outcrossing is when you bring in an excellent roller from a tight family that exhibit a trait that your tight family of birds lacking. Whatever it is, and it doesn’t have to be related to performance. It could be that your birds produce allot of infertile cocks, dead in eggs, weak feathers ect. Outcrossing is a science and not just put this into that. You could end up breeding toward the outcross and dismantle years of work bringing your family to what you wanted to be. You will bring in allot of unwanted faults to your family also with an outcross, no matter how superior that outcross bird is. Remember no matter how good a pigeon is, it is still an aggregate of its ancestry.
Please, read my article, Outcrossing Made Simple, and read it some more. This time read it to decipher the content to give you a greater understanding of the concept rather than just reading an article about rollers. It will give a greater understanding of what you really want to do and how to do it. It will explain to you how to test mate outcross and with what bird and how to bring it back into the family. At least, it will make you aware of the pitfall and the advantages that you are about to face.
Good luck Paul, and I am sure you will come out on top.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Apr 21, 2006 4:38 AM
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C.J.
124 posts
Apr 21, 2006
5:42 AM
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Wow Tony 2 a.m. you are getting to be as bad as me. My wife gets mad because she will catch me up in the middle of the night reading and reposting to this site.
she Truely thinks i am nuts. But sometimes I can't wait to see the responses.
C.J.
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Ballrollers
332 posts
Apr 21, 2006
6:58 AM
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Paul,
Excellent post using some good brain power and personal observations. I appreciate your objectivity, and you do not appear to have any particular agenda, which, to me, gives your thought processes more credibility, knowing that you are not on a stump promoting a particular philosophy. Tony has asked that I clarify or delete that statement, so let me take a moment to do so. That is not meant as a jab at anyone. Certainly, I have accused and been accused of having an agenda from time to time. And at times, the fact is, I have had an agenda or a point to prove, as have others. There is a time and place for that. However, objectivity in reporting our observations and experiences is essential in gathering accurate information from which we will form our future conclusions about the fancy. If we have an agenda, we tend to skew the information in favor of that agenda. I believe that one of the problems in our fancy today is that men in the past developed an agenda or idea, first, that they began to "hang their hat on", and believe in "come hell or high water"' no matter what the observations or experiences of other men in the sport was. And we still see the trickle down from that today on the sport, in the form of misinformation.
It is almost like you were inside my own head regarding this "crossing" topic, Paul. As I have posted before, our current World Champ and National Champ do not hesitate to bring in an outcross that possesses a particular quality they desire, but they breed back to their main family, not away from it. Men who breed only from one tightly-held family have also won the Championships, so, as I said, the jury is still out. I think we can safely assume that the willy-nilly outcrossing of multiple families without a real plan is probably doomed to failure, and for the inexperenced breeder, the fewer families involved and the tighter the gene pool, the more consistent his production is likely to be. From what I am observing, a tightly-held family is not any more productive than one in which the judicious use of outcrosses is employed, when it comes to quality of performance, or consistency of production of that performance. Experience is the key, which puts many of us who are somewhere between "inexperienced" and "experienced", in a real dilemma. And of course, these facts may vary from one family of rollers to another. JMHO, Cliff
Last Edited by Ballrollers on Apr 21, 2006 8:28 AM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
731 posts
Apr 21, 2006
8:15 AM
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Jay.In your reply to Paul's post I don't understand what you are saying. Are you saying if we cross families such as Pensom,Plona,Smith,Turner,Scott,Billings etc that we are not outcrossing since they all go back to the original family of Rollers? Sometimes I get lost.LOL. David
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J_Star
406 posts
Apr 21, 2006
9:11 AM
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Dave,
No that is not what I am saying. You can always out breed by selecting best to best. It is a blend of multiple blood line and you select the best offspring and cull the rest. After a few generations the blood line becomes homogeneous amongst all of your birds. Every once in a while you will get undesirable birds which you will cull. This is not outcrossing, not at all. This is outbreeding best to best period. Even if you bring birds from the outside, you are still breeding best to best and harnessing the best off spring and culling the rest. In time the new genes will be incorporated with the rest of the blood line that you have. That does not say you have a well inbred family that enjoys a tight gene pool. Inbred family, usually starts from one cock or hen and through the years, the blood of that cock or hen is in every roller in the loft. They all revolve around that parent.
Outcrossing is a totally different concept. It is done to only bring in a certain missing trait to your family of well inbred birds. It could be one or multiple of missing traits. It is used to strengthen what you already have in your family not to dilute the blood line of what you have. Usually outcrossing is employed to a tight bred family of specimen to expand its potential and capabilities. This tight family is usually inbred and line bred for so many years through proper selection of mates before an outcross is thought of to be brought in. In breeding by itself will concentrate the blood but will bring weaknesses to the surface as well. Without careful selection, you might inbreed possibly some the weaknesses and incorporate it to the blood line. For example, you don’t pay attention to fertility rate, constant infertile eggs; excessive squeakers die in nest, poor feather quality and so on. All these problems are created from intensive inbreeding. To incorporate an outcross without being careful, for sure, you will dismantle many years of hard work of bringing your family to enjoy a tightness of the gene pool. As I said, a pigeon is an aggregate of its ancestry. Meaning, the gene pool that outcross bird is a make up of its parents, grand parents and grand-grand parents and so on. Therefore, you are going to bring in a slue of undesirables along with the desirable gene pool. But you need to test mate the outcross before incorporating it into your loft.
Outcrossing is best employed by the most experience in breeding otherwise it could be disastrous. What Cliff says is true but he fails to mention what level of experience in roller breeding by those individuals and the methods they go about it to incorporate an outcross with their family of rollers. If JoeBob states for the record for us how he employs outcrossing, you will find that his methods is pretty much close to the article I wrote about it. It is scientific in nature, no ifs or buts about it. Anybody can try their ways of doing it but at the end you will find that you wasted many years without significant results and you will end up dismantling the whole process and culling all the offspring from such mating. All what I am saying is be careful. Educate yourself through research and analysis before a major undertaken that might cause you a disastrous outcome. This is just the way I see it and by all means, you know what you need in your birds than anybody else, so if you see it otherwise, then go right a head.
Jay
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nicksiders
536 posts
Apr 21, 2006
9:14 AM
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Ain't that how everybody started anyway and ain't that what we do?
KGB has his own family of birds, but in the beginning how did he get there? Tony has his Ruby Rollers, but how did he get there?
I now talk about me never adding outside birds to my family, but how did I get my current family? I took birds from other peoples loft that I liked by thier performance; breed them; took the best from thier offspring and bread them; and so on and so on. My birds are a conglomeration of Plona, Smith, Norwood, Wersler(sp),Stephens, and Hatcher. Thier birds where also conglomerations of other families and so on and so on.
I think Paul is spending too many late nights awake at the firestation(LOL), but I also think he hit the nail square. In the work to breed the "perfect" roller his post states what a lot of us are doing or maybe it can be said all of us are doing.
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Planet_Rock_Lofts
37 posts
Apr 21, 2006
9:30 AM
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Paul,
I think you answered your own question. How many times in life have you been told not to do something but you did it anyway and the outcome was not what you were told it would be?
Personally, I am headstrong if something clicks in me to try then I will try it, no matter what anybody tells me. I just have to see for myself if the outcome will be as disasterous as people say.
When I got back into rollers May 2005 I read a lot of things about deep rollers. People would say don't put that 100 foot roller on the 70 foot roller all you'll get is rolldowns. To this day this pairing out of 15 young birds has not produced one rolldown, there is a deep offspring from this pair but not a rolldown.
You know your birds and experimenting is the ONLY way you can see what will work and what will not work.
Planet Rock Lofts
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
733 posts
Apr 21, 2006
10:05 AM
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Jay.Please explain to me why if you can get Superior Rollers by the breeding of different families of rollers would you want to keep inbreeding your Superior Rollers to the point of having to make an Outcross for a certain trait?Why not just keep crossing the different families? I know I get pretty dense sometimes but I havn't been proven to yet that to tighten the gene pool of one pair of birds is the way to go.
When did this tighten the gene pool thing come into being? Why did the England fanciers breed from different families?They are the ones that developed the Birmingham Roller.Why are you seeing mixed families of rollers winning the majority of the Flys.Lot of unanswered questions.David
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J_Star
407 posts
Apr 21, 2006
10:17 AM
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True, that is why you test mate before you incorporate.
Nick, we all started that way until we tightened the gene pool and we try to protect it thereafter. Reference to KGB, for example, is fine but you also failed to mention how long does have his family with a tight gene pool and performs to his preference? Once you have achieved what you want in your rollers, why do you need to mess with them. If you have the desire to make them even better, because there is always room to enhance and do better, then test mate and go from there so that you can be the judge of your own doing.
Jay
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J_Star
408 posts
Apr 21, 2006
10:44 AM
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Dave,
Again, I did not say that the inbreed families are better than the best to best bred families or vise a versa. I notice the audience in the forum can fit into two categories. The fanciers with lots of years in rollers who developed their roller from a blend of many outstanding rollers in the past and tighten the gene pool to what they wanted in their birds. The other group who just started or been at it for a while but did not tighten the gene pool of their family and still made up of best to best with homogeneous blood line.
For fanciers who are driven by creating a family of one, meaning a family that revolves around one parent, whether they created it or was created for them, an outcross will not be of their best interest. But for fanciers who are still building their family from breeding best to best from a collection of multiple good families, bringing in a bird from the outside is not going to affect them much due to the fact the new blood will be incorporated along with the homogeneous blood of the family after a few generations. With this kind of breeding, you should expect offspring’s not to be similar in behavior or flight pattern or performance. One offspring might inherit the majority of its gene from a grandfather blood of the hen or the cock. The other might have inherited form another side of the parent off breeding somewhere and another might be of combinations of multiple ancestors. So expect to cull quite bit to keep the best and will be on going basis. That is why you hear the term ‘the apple does not fall far from the tree’.
Through the years I have been a member of this forum, I read so many posts where people say ‘it depends on the family you have’ and ‘every family is different’ and on and on. Right there it tells you there are many different make up of our rollers. And mix and match with a well inbred family would be disastrous. But I did not say which is better, well inbred family or best to best family. I am just trying to differentiate between the term outbreeding and outcrossing, which are used interchangeably amongst fanciers and the understanding becomes distorted due to the concept of each methodology.
Jay
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MCCORMICKLOFTS
485 posts
Apr 21, 2006
11:44 AM
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Paul wrote:
"It is trial and error. You try this pair and see how they produce..if they do not you move the cock around or the hen around..and still nothing..you move on and try something else...then that pairing works and then you fly the offspring of two great pairing and then you try them out and so on."
Ah, common sense is truly bliss! Reality sure does have a soothing effect doesn't it Paul..lol.
Brian.
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Outlaw Vizsla
5 posts
Apr 21, 2006
12:35 PM
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One thing that I believe everyone needs to keep in mind with inbreeding or linebreeding...while you are tightening up the lines and increasing your positive traits(due to breeding best to best) as well as your prepotency, your also amplfying the negative as well.
The negative is where your problems occur, I believe keeping things to tight in the long run will hurt a breeder more than help him/her.
Matt
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
736 posts
Apr 21, 2006
1:47 PM
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Jay.I must honestly say I don't understand what you are talking about.You wrote all these articles on Outcrossing,Inbreeding,Linebreeding etc so you must be somewhat of an expert on them.However in your post on this thread I can not grasp what you are saying.One time you say one thing then you say another.Maybe what you are saying in a round about way is that it all works as long as you are breeding best to best and culling hard and keeping the good ones.Which is the way I do it.LOL. David
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siddiqir
203 posts
Apr 21, 2006
1:49 PM
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Long post Paul, I only read 2 paragraphs LOL.
I am not being long enough with rollers to say any thing BUT if you read rollers books (specially the book currently offered by NBRC which has interview from best rollers fanciers around the world) they all have out crossed. Every one have different story to tell but the outcome is same (OUT CROSSED)...
If I visit X loft and see better birds them mine IN AIR...I will simply outcross (CONDITION - IF I GET NICE WORKING BIRDS)...no question. This IS all BuS to keep one family...never out crossed...you gets garbage after 2 generation... Thanks, -Rauf
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fhtfire
424 posts
Apr 21, 2006
2:51 PM
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Nick you are right...I was at the station and it was late..LOL..we had a busy day and I was doing my fifth report and needed a break. LOL
I am glad that I am getting some good posts on the content of my post. It has been a thorn in my side. I know that people outcross or cross different strains...but my real confusion is the amount of fanciers that say not to do it...or only bring a cross if you get to a certain point...well..what is that point...all roll downs...missing a beak...super webbed feet...4 legs..that is my confusion. why not..like David said..use the pairs that work no matter what strain...as long as it is a champion bird (or close to it) and produces as good or better then itself. Why inbreed and get the bad traits to pop up...It just seems to me...I guess like J_Star said...breed best to best. You are still breeding a lot of birds and weeding out the crap. The reason why I ask...is because..I have some real tight families that I am breeding with...I have bred the families and crossed the families...I get just about the same percentage both ways...Why run the risk of bringing out bad traits..or having feather quality going down hill or 4 legs...or webbed feet..or whatever...I know that you can get the above faults just crossing different strains...but is the percentage higher that you will have faults inbreeding. Anyway....it is just a question that I had to ask...and I do not have an agenda...I just wanted some clarification on why some fanciers...are so set on not letting a champion bird in the loft of a tight family....just to see what happens! or saying that you will have a bunch of crap crossing families. In the long run you will still circle the wagons around certain birds. Anyway...I have a Cock that I bred that is pure Emami, and a Hen that I bred that is pure Emami..they are mated...I will get three rounds...then I am putting a superstar...Ruby Roller hen on him....then I am putting a little RR Campbell hen that is awesome...and I am going to see what happens. Who came up with the tight family thing vs. crossing different birds and saying which way is the best way. Is it because one person had success so all should do it that way...I don't know. It just seems that all the old writings that I read...talk of the old timers going to different lofts and picking out and wheeling and dealing for a Champion Spinner...just to get the blood in there loft. Then I have read articles from very respect spinners to ..keep the family tight and breed back to the mother or father or what have you. What came first the pigeon or the egg!! LOL!! The easy part is putting the pairs together and rolling the dice....the hard part is building a team of rollers and studying that team to find what birds are an asset to the team or hurting the team. A perfect example is a friend came by and I put up my B-team...I have a bird in the B-team that is 30ft..fast and tight...my friend said..why don't you have that bird in your A team..man it is good..I told him...that bird is a problem in the team...the team does not do as good when he is in it...so I pulled a good spinner...building a team and recognizing the what is good and bad is the hard part...because some birds do not stick out like a sore thumb if they are a disruption... Anyway....I like the input...I am learning more with all of your posts.
rock and ROLL
Paul Fullerton
P.S. I am not saying bring in new birds all the time..that would for sure..screw you up...I am talking about crossing families or bringing in an outcross and seeing what happens and keep focusing on the good birds and if the chance pops up that your buddy has a great cock and wants you to try him out...do it..and see what happens. that is what I am saying...I think...LOL!!
Last Edited by fhtfire on Apr 21, 2006 2:58 PM
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merced guy
53 posts
Apr 21, 2006
3:27 PM
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Paul,
great post, It seems like you have alot of valid points; furthermore, you also have answered your own questions. Myself, being an animal breeder for fifteen years, I can attest to what you were trying to get across. About what Scott said regarding, "purpose" if you have a goal in mind than honestly it should serve that purpase. If you have put that much thought into it, ofcourse you have to also try to refute your thinking too, due to the many sides to a story, and it looks like you have, so it's just up to you to do it or not. I, myself sometimes think of the same stuff you were just describing.
I am also fairly new to breeding rollers too, but I have been breeding game roosters for a long time and it seems like you will have to cross every now and then to stay in the competition, I mean every two or three years, and then I breed back to the family, so to keep the traits I want and keep the line true to the qualities I like.
One thing that I want to say is that you might have a hard time setting the type, if thats important to you. Conformity and consistancy is what veteran guys preach and I think that is important. Or you'll get all sort of tyes and sizes. of course I understand you can't breed for performance and other things. But you prabably have already thought this out too.
I also want to add that if you have a good understanding of biology and mendal's laws of inheritance, than no matter what you do, you shouldn't stray too far off your project.
in the sport,
thong
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J_Star
410 posts
Apr 21, 2006
5:16 PM
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Dave,
I really don’t know what you don’t understand. I thought my posts were very clear. Inbreeding is not for everybody to start with. A fancier must know what he is doing to dabble with it as I stated in the articles. It has advantage and also has disadvantages like everything else. The easiest for breeders is out breeding for many reasons as I also stated in the articles. I did not say which is better in any of the articles and neither in my posts for this thread. The terms out crossing and out breeding are used interchangeably amongst fanciers that becoming confusing since each have a different method of breeding and purpose.
I don’t take sides on this issue since it is the breeders preference to what they want to achieve. Your plans could be different than mine or his or hers and it is not my place to say my methods are better than yours or his or vise a versa. And I assure you that both methods, inbreeding or best to best will produce you good spinners. Proper selection and mating will get you any anybody there, no doubt.
To summarize, ‘Breeders wishing to build a strain of rollers possessing family type uniformity can only achieve this by using an inbreeding system of one form or another. The heritable makeup of each adult bird is unalterable but by skillfully matching, the breeder can only hope that the mating will nick and advance the quality of his strain. The breeder skill in this will be evident in the quality of the young he rear.’ While ‘Outbreeding continually brings together birds of different genetic makeup. The variety of ancestry produces stock with what is reflected to as hybrid vigour. This in its way produces stock, which are quite different in type….Another alternative method of outbreeding is known as ‘best to best’ breeding method. This system can work out quite well if all the rollers are of high quality. In studs where the quality is not so high, and in which some features are quite deficient, it will still be necessary to ensure that both partners do not possess the same faults.’
Hope this will clear the misunderstanding.
Jay
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
586 posts
Apr 21, 2006
6:01 PM
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Hey Jay, is David trolling?? LMAO
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
737 posts
Apr 21, 2006
6:30 PM
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Tony.Would you explain your last post to me? David
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
738 posts
Apr 21, 2006
6:41 PM
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Jay.I guess I am getting Crossing Families mixed with Inbreeding and Outcrossing.David
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Double D
196 posts
Apr 21, 2006
9:10 PM
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Paul and I have discussed this topic and I must qualify my comments by saying I have very little experience breeding rollers. However, strictly from my experience so far and giving it a lot of thought and some research, I have come to believe that you can and will have problems if you have a family that is "too tight", "too inbred". I also agree with Paul, in that my research has indicated that quite a few successful fanciers have taken two or three tight families and taken a champion from one of the families and a champion from the other and crossed them, all with the idea of developing their own family, and have done so extremely successfully. Paul talks about how much he likes his Ruby Rollers and I have some on the way also, and unless I misunderstand how Tony started the Ruby Roller family, he had birds from a number of established families. Tony preaches best to best breeding in his book. In light of these two factors, I find Tony's first comment right after Paul's above to be a little bit surprising. Maybe 2 a.m. was a bit to late. LOL!
The way this topic is discussed and referred to by many, you would tend to get the idea that breeding rollers is so much more difficult to get right than breeding nearly all other types of domestic animals. I personally have a hard time believing that. Their make-up cannot be that much more complex. Just my two cents.
Darin
Last Edited by Double D on Apr 21, 2006 9:14 PM
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
587 posts
Apr 21, 2006
10:19 PM
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David, your tact with Jay is relentless, seems to me you don't want to understand what he is saying as perhaps it does not agree with your approach to breeding rollers.
I understand what he is saying and I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
If you are trying to stir it up on purpose, you are trolling for reaction.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
588 posts
Apr 21, 2006
10:36 PM
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Hey Darin, no, Sal, mixed the families, I started with them already combined. The families Sal mixed just happened to be traced back to Pensoms 514.
Usually you will not get the champions from someones loft but you may get a relative or offspring that will provide you with the same gene pool that produced that champion.
Personally, I would not be eager to combine two champions from separate families, but I would be eager to have the champion and a close relative to breed together.
In my conversations with people interested in my birds, I have on more than one occasion told them that they may NOT need my birds as the ones they already have might have all the traits they are looking for.
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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motherlodelofts
741 posts
Apr 21, 2006
11:52 PM
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I think what we are seeing here is nothing more than justifying what people are doing due to not having an understanding what a solid family is or the value of it, most new guys do a lot of crossing because they have birds from different sources not because they actually know what they are doing.
And there are some that have been around for along time that every few years have birds brought in from other flyers , 5 years later they are trying another, then another and another , in other words they can't figure it out so they must allways bring in new birds.
Darin tight families carry different lines within the family that actually become a linebred outcross , that is how it works and what keeps it working.
A family means consistancy in the breeding loft and in the actions of the birds , you learn the traits of the birds and what makes them tick, the wider the gene pool the less that you know about anything that pertains to your birds , thier habits, how they come in, what they act like through thier growng and rolling stages , they will and are all over the board with these wide gene pools.
I've done the same as many here , and I also learned that it is nothing but chaotic when compared to a real family , sure you can see some good roll at times , but the loose gene pool will bite you also unless you tighten it up .
If you don't understand what I wrote here then your best bet is to keep searching out other peoples birds.
Personally I want my birds to have "my" name on them and to show the hard work and time that I have behind them , I also enjoy knowing the in's and out's of "my" birds which you won't be able to do with a cesspool of genes.
Scott
Scott
Last Edited by motherlodelofts on Apr 21, 2006 11:54 PM
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
739 posts
Apr 22, 2006
3:38 AM
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Tony.My tact with Jay was only 2 or 3 post.Maybe you understand Jay better because you know him better.I didn't know that Jay was taking the middle of the subject and pointing out both versions of it.I was reading his post as an Expert breeder of rollers.Nothing more nothing less.Not trying to stir the pot.Just trying to learn.I have been on this forum since you started it.I never left when you closed it down and was instrumental in getting a lot of the ones who had left to come back so why would you want to blame me for trolling or stirring the pot just for stating my opinions or trying to understand what someone else is saying.When I see someone saying 2 different sides to anything I want to know where they are coming from.David
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fhtfire
425 posts
Apr 22, 2006
3:58 AM
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I want everyone to stay with the original post and give me there opinion...I do not want bickering....David...I saw where you were coming from too....I had to read J_stars post about three times to understand what he was getting at...I am a little slow..I know..LOL! Anyway..I am only talking about individuals breeding different birds or strains together at the BEGINING...not adding birds all the time. I know that would cause many problems...you would be lost..and would sit there and spin your wheels. I was just wondering again...why fanciers say that it is bad to do at the BEGINING when a lot of our good strains were started that way in the BEGINING. I am NOT saying that you should get new birds every year mix elevendy billion strains together...I am NOT saying to do it one way or another...Again..just wanted to know why fanciers say don't do it at the begining when a lot of good families were started that way...after you cross...narrow it down to a small number of good birds and then tighten up...how tight you want to go...is up to the fancier...if you want unicorn pigeons that have to wear targ helmets from being to tight or a family that is tight enough to give the traits that you are looking for...that is like Tony said...your back yard...your birds....
rock and ROLL
Paul
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J_Star
413 posts
Apr 22, 2006
7:46 AM
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Sorry I mislead anybody or been misunderstood. As you all know me by now I will not take a position one way or another on a topic when I sense a strong opinion is taken from both groups. I have respect to all the people on this forum and for me to take a position with a group of people will only contribute to Pickering and disagreements. Therefore, I always stay neutral when a controversy or a difference of opinion being exercised. As a moderator in this forum, I have to exercise that kind of mentality to be able to jump in and break up a dispute without giving the impression to one group or the other that I am taking one side or another.
I will always point out the facts, the good and the bad of each program and it is up to the fancier to decide which way to go. Paul is my friend and I just wanted to point out to him the difference between outbreeding and outcrossing because I became confused at the beginning when I read his post and the replies that followed. I am not an expert by all means, all what I did is shared information about the breeding topic willingly through articles with everybody in this website rather than holding the info to myself and jump into a post such as this flexing my knowledge acting like a know it all.
I am afraid to add anymore to this topic to avoid any issues with friends that might lead to strong opinions by a group of friends and I become a center of a dispute.
Although, David, for as much as I tried to make my posts as clear as possible, and you know how hard that can be when you are typing on the computer, the continued questing from your part and by stating in other words that I am talking from both side of my mouth, gave the impression of trolling. Trolling is good sometimes because it will bring out information hidden in our minds that we all take for granted through further explanation for justification and allow for constructive discussion and learning.
All what I like to say to everybody is educate yourselves through research and analyzing the info you gathered before any major undertaken in you program to avoid a big set back and set yourselves a few valuable years behind. And I hope I did not offend anybody, which is not my intention. And if I did unintentionally, please accept my sincere apologies. Thanks.
Jay
Last Edited by J_Star on Apr 22, 2006 8:13 AM
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Sourland
65 posts
Apr 22, 2006
8:12 AM
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I think I can spot trolling from a mile away. Big, Big difference between looking for clarification and trolling. In the many posts of Bluesman's that I have read on several sites, I have never gotten the impression that he was trolling in any way form or fashion. Tony, your reaction surprises me also.
Geo.
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
740 posts
Apr 22, 2006
8:21 AM
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Jay.No offence taken at all.I just didn,t understand what you were doing.I hope you know me well enough to know that when I ask questions it is to the one I feel can answer them.Be it you or Tony.I never intend to stir things up and is why I don,t post as much as I used to.It seems like everything I say is not taken in the manner in which I mean it to.
I guess to keep confusion down I will be very selective in asking questions on this forum.That way no one will think I am an Innernet Troll.LOL. David
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J_Star
414 posts
Apr 22, 2006
8:33 AM
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Thanks David, and I know that you were not stirring anything up and I also know that Tony knew that. You need to continue asking if you don't understand but as we all know also we need to know not to continue on drilling to avoid a dispute.
I did not take your posts offending at all either and I am glad that a post like this get it us to engage into a constructive discussion. Now lets play ball.
Jay
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motherlodelofts
742 posts
Apr 22, 2006
9:22 AM
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I have never known Dave to purposely cause a stir (unlike myself LOL ).
Scott
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Bluesman
Pigeon Fancier
741 posts
Apr 22, 2006
9:25 AM
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Hey Scott.We used to have some good times debating on here didn't we.LOL. David
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FULLTURN
16 posts
Apr 22, 2006
5:36 PM
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Scott, Good lodgic. I especially like this statement: "A family means consistancy in the breeding loft and in the actions of the birds , you learn the traits of the birds and what makes them tick, the wider the gene pool the less that you know about anything that pertains to your birds , thier habits, how they come in, what they act like through thier growng and rolling stages , they will and are all over the board with these wide gene pools". Some of us are getting on in age years and don't have the time to start from scratch. Keep in mind. Not all breeding plans produce desired results, most do not. Why not work with a gene pool that will put you years ahead of starting from scratch. You have to ask yourself how can I best us the time I have left.
Ron
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Tony Chavarria
Site Publisher
596 posts
Apr 23, 2006
5:07 AM
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Velo99 Post Moved To Create New Thread: Perfection By Selection
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FLY ON! Tony Chavarria
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katyroller
14 posts
Apr 25, 2006
7:03 PM
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I personally don't like to outcross. I feel there are enough breeding possibilities within an established family that it is rarely necessary. Most families have enough hidden faults and room for improvement that I wouldn't want to introduce more.I would try to limit outcrossing to correcting a fault that I could not correct with any birds already in the family. Once the desired trait has been established I would consider removing the original outcross from the family. With all the established families in existence, why not just improve what is already there rather than start all over again? As it is, just breeding from an established family for several generations will produce a sub-family without ever introducing new blood.
Last Edited by katyroller on Apr 26, 2006 1:56 AM
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Velo99
394 posts
Apr 26, 2006
5:07 AM
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Guys
It would seem to me, if I were to use an outcross from my loft,I would have bred the pair enough to know the hidden faults in the birds I intended to outcross with.
Mine are in the foster side now. I plan on raising a couple of rounds each season for the next few seasons. Would this be enough rounds to determine the traits and habits of this pair?
yits
v99
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katyroller
16 posts
Apr 26, 2006
6:19 AM
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Velo99, I understand what you are saying but my previous experiences with racing homers has always turned up some trait that I totally did not expect. Just my experience. :)
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Alohazona
141 posts
Apr 26, 2006
10:14 AM
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Katy,
In regards to racing homers,I have always inbred for stock,raced the smaller sized birds.I will cross my racing team for hybrid vigor,this is what the big names do.I agree recessively things can and do pop up,but on a very small scale.My 2nd place roller team were 50% crosses,they were alittle hot in the beginning,but evened out to be good kitbirds.....Aloha,Todd
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katyroller
17 posts
Apr 26, 2006
12:15 PM
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Alohazona, I also hear what you are saying and have first hand knowledge of that practice. Most of the big successful lofts have one or more of the old faithful bloodlines and cross them for the hybrid vigor on the race team. What happens to most of the hybrids after one or more race seasons? Some are stocked but most very good birds are sold off. I think most of these hybrids have undesirable traits that would take time to breed out and who knows what else would pop up in the process. Why do all that work when you have the original goods to produce more good birds? I could see the roller sport becoming like the racing hobby, those that breed to fly and those that buy to fly.
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Mount Airy Lofts
202 posts
Apr 27, 2006
10:38 PM
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Paul,
I think there are two sides to every story. Take for example my birds. Some of my birds will have at least 4 different breeders in their back ground. Altho if you dig deeper, you will find that all of which were good friends and shared or sold birds to one another on a regular basis. So just because I see different breeders in my birds back ground doesn't mean they were all crossed up. It could possibly just be that they just shared birds (from the same original source).
Usually, one guy in the state will import birds from a truly great flier. This guy inturns helps out his best bud with the stock. Acouple of years later, one or both start off a flier or two with such stock. Now you have atleast 3 fliers with the same stock. Factor in that none of the guys ever crossed in a different family into their stock. When one of these guys sees something they like in the air, they take it home to breed out of. Multiply this by acouple more new fliers and you have a core of friends who shared pretty much the same stock.
I like to think that we do share birds. Most hard core fliers will not except any other birds except from a flier they trust with the same family.
I also believe in that 'If it is not broken, why fix it'. Why cross in another family if there is nothing wrong with the family in the first place. If there is some thing wrong, why not just look for a family that is closer to your ideal.
On a side note, there is no point to all ways searching for a better family. There will always be a better family year to year. If you are constantly chasing better birds, then you will all ways have new birds every year. The key is to find the birds closest to your ideal and mold them into what you like by selective breeding. I am not talking about out crossing but simply just breeding within those core of birds until you get what you like. The family must have a track record of producing true and it must meet your ideal in the air. Once you find it, stick with it. If it is not broken, don't fix it.
Thor
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